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Cerebral Bore posted:i'm pretty loving sure that if the chips are down and the army needs to roll out they wouldn't give a single gently caress if one civilian tried to stop the whole thing if your conception of any society dismisses the social contract as a prerequisite than I have some bad news for communism too
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Feb 11, 2021 14:22
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it always fills me with confidence whenever some anarchist starts describing a society that on a fundamental logical level cannot work as advertised or it would have collapsed already and then fall back on nonsense and bluster when called out on the obvious critical flaws. really fills me with confidence that this anarchy stuff has even the slightest shot at working at all.
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Feb 11, 2021 14:51
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tl;dr more like cerebral boring  gently caress a heirerachy n gently caress you too lol
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Feb 11, 2021 14:55
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https://twitter.com/AnarkYouTube/status/1359271454513262598 I like anarchism (obviously), but gently caress this guy
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Feb 11, 2021 15:22
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Sure, Cuba might have thrown off virtual slavery and carved out a massively better standard of living for its people, but now that they're choosing to allow some professions to own sole-proprietorships they're just another capitalist state!
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Feb 11, 2021 15:35
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"if your conception of any society dismisses the social contract as a prerequisite than I have some bad news for communism too" i say to the livid communist kneeling next to me with his hands tied behind his back while a death squad member is executing us one by one and the one guy who recalled our police and army receives a comically large gameshow-style check from a USAID employee
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Feb 11, 2021 15:39
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Doctor Jeep posted:"if your conception of any society dismisses the social contract as a prerequisite than I have some bad news for communism too" i say to the livid communist kneeling next to me with his hands tied behind his back while a death squad member is executing us one by one and the one guy who recalled our police and army receives a comically large gameshow-style check from a USAID employee Hey, if you wanna talk about how EZLN works in practice, including how the rule I described exists to empower individuals against coercion but not organisations against the project I'd be happy to oblige, but it's pretty clear CB is not interested in actual debate so I'm not gonna waste my time for him.
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Feb 11, 2021 15:58
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you're right that i'm not very interested in debating you, but that's mostly because the things you say are self-evidently ludicrous hth
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Feb 11, 2021 16:06
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Why you so mad bro?
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Feb 11, 2021 16:08
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So many mad commies and tankies in this thread lmfao. *Sits down with all the components of a state* Here is a tried and true mechanism that has worked every time. Surely this time it will treat people with dignity! Ah well, nevertheless.
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Feb 11, 2021 16:28
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Cerebral Bore posted:once again anarchists end up reinventing the state, calling it something different and then getting extremely mad when called out on it
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Feb 11, 2021 17:03
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skewetoo posted:So many mad commies and tankies in this thread lmfao. Mostly seems like cerebral bore (who I think is mostly doing it for fun). And I notice you haven't mentioned the many liberals in this thread spewing trite garbage. It's no accident that the two contemporary groups (Rojava, EZLN) that are most often claimed as anarchist successes have links to ML philosophy and don't have the same conception of individual liberty that groups like crimethinc and tiqqun/invisicom jerk off to. I think they are cool, but I don't know if they would scale well or maintain the features you prize at that scale. I read a lovely fantasy novella by Margret Killjoy called 'Country of Ghosts' (which I would recommend if you like that kind of thing) it's about an anarchist society fighting against an Imperialist one and it does not go well at all. It's treated as noble, but I don't see the nobility in being unable to defend your way of life. Preoccupation with the sanctity of personal liberty is a tyranny of its own. So much of what I believed about real-world socialist states was anti-communist propaganda, these states bettered peoples lives in ways that anarchist societies have not yet managed (read black shirts and reds by parenti). It's ridiculous to think that the black army would have been as successful the USSR. It's disgusting that people like Chomsky said it was good for freedom when the USSR collapsed. It was the triumph of unreconstructed fascists.
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Feb 11, 2021 17:31
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michael scott.jpg I STRIP YOU OF YOUR MILLITARY PRIVILEGES SOLDIER
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Feb 11, 2021 17:48
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Chomskyan posted:https://twitter.com/AnarkYouTube/status/1359271454513262598 they're doing this because they're getting strangled with sanctions?? this is why i really loving hate anarchists
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Feb 11, 2021 18:02
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skewetoo posted:So many mad commies and tankies in this thread lmfao. they did, and have, and were ultimately defeated by capitalist nations with centuries' worth of head starts determined to crush them. they did have internal problems, but for the exact opposite reasons liberal right wingers and anarchists (but i repeat myself) imagine. quote:We have been taught that people living under communism suffer from "the totalitarian control over every aspect oflife," as Time magazine (5/27/96) still tells us. Talking to the people themselves, one found that they complained less about overbearing control than about the absence of responsible control. quote:There was the manager who regularly pilfered the till, the workers who filched foodstuffs and goods from state stores or supplies from factories in order to service private homes for personal gain, the peasants on collective farms who stripped parts from tractors to sell them on the black market, the director who accepted bribes to place people at the top of a waiting list to buy cars, and the farmers who hoarded livestock which they sold to townspeople at three times the government's low procurement price. All this was hardly the behavior of people trembling under a totalitarian rule of terror. quote:Not surprisingly, work discipline left much to be desired. There was the clerk who chatted endlessly with a friend on the telephone while a long line of people waited resentfully for service, the two workers who took three days to paint a hotel wall that should have taken a few hours, the many who would walk off their jobs to go shopping. quote:If fired, an individual had a constitutional guarantee to another job and seldom had any difficulty finding one. The labor market was a seller's market. Workers did not fe ar losing their jobs but managers fe ared losing their best workers and sometimes overpaid them to prevent them from leaving. quote:Communist economies had a kind of Wonderland quality in that " prices seldom bore any relation to actual cost or value. Many expen-sive services were provided almost entirely free, such as education, medical care, and most recreational, sporting, and cultural events. Housing, transportation, utilities, and basic foods were heavily subsidized. these, to be sure, sound like some pretty annoying problems but are ultimately problems arising from what happens when you are liberated from the real totalitarian masters of your life - your loving boss. i'd take them over what we have and over what any anarchist society has ever produced or is capable of doing. and funny things happened when these societies were destroyed, people began to miss what they had lost! quote:Most people living under socialism had little understanding of capitalism in practice. Workers interviewed in Poland believed that if their factory were to be closed down in the transition to the free market, "the state will find us some other work" (New Yorker, 11/ 13/89). They thought they would have it both ways. In the Soviet Union, many who argued for privatization also expected the government to continue providing them with collective benefits and subsidies. quote:They discovered they could no longer leave their jobs during the day to go shopping, that their employers provided no company doctor when they fe ll ill on the job, that they were subject to severe reprimands when tardy, that they could not walk the streets and parks late at night without fear, that they might not be able to afford medical services for their family or college tuition for their children, and that they had no guarantee of a job and might experience unemployment at any time.
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Feb 11, 2021 18:17
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mila kunis posted:they're doing this because they're getting strangled with sanctions?? this is why i really loving hate anarchists So what cuba is doing right now is .... good actually?
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Feb 11, 2021 18:31
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Kaedric posted:So what cuba is doing right now is .... good actually? ? i'm saying that the whombo combo of being hit by a global pandemic + being under crippling sanctions by a world superpower right next to you might be more responsible for forcing them into concessions than whatever that anarchist ableist slur is going on about https://www.ft.com/content/3956b50f-621a-4289-90c3-247a2762fae2 quote:Cuba’s fragile economy was already reeling from a tightening of economic sanctions ordered by the Trump administration when Covid-19 hit. The pandemic has cut off most tourism revenue, leaving the import-dependent island desperately short of foreign exchange.
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Feb 11, 2021 18:34
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we talked about in another thread here, it also may not be as extreme as it's being portrayed in the press here anyway https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3760900&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1096#post512393214
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Feb 11, 2021 18:36
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dex_sda posted:It has no monopoly of force, is the thing. A single civilian can strip any member of the army of all privileges, instantly, making it ineffective at actually coercing anyone. It exists to quash external threats. And the community police is chosen by individual units; is not militarised, and can be recalled by the population. all the laws are made by the population, and the community police only enforces things in individual communities, just with some laws shared between multiple locations. the bottom-up system with ownership of means of production and without coercion is in fact the very thing Engels argues for in his 'statelessness.' what happens if a single civilian strips a member of the army of all privileges, but that member of the army refuses to listen? who actually forces the wayward soldier to disarm and demobilize? is it an ad hoc militia of civilian vigilantes, or the rest of the army? betcha it's the rest of the army, because, exactly as claimed, the zapatista government holds a monopoly of force over its territory, and within that ensures that the capitalist class cannot gain any kind of foothold or begin to establish power over the workers and peasants. it's a state by both the marxist and anarchist definition (which are themselves practically identical; anarchists just imagine that states develop some kind of independent vitality in addition to being used as a tool of class control) separately, there's actually nothing special about ezln police, either. if you're in or near america, you've heard of "community policing," "elected civilian review boards", etc. technically, on paper, americans like me have all the same privileges relative to their police as members of the ezln do relative to theirs. why are the results different? well, because of the class character of our respective police forces. ezln police protect the citizenry; american police protect property from the citizenry. the effect or non-effect or formal, bureaucratic restrictions are downstream of the underlying relations of class power what i "hate" about rojava, the ezln, etc, is not anything in particular that any of those territories do, but the fact that anarchists talk about them as though they're doing anything new or unique. did you know the chinese PLA is highly decentralized and democratic to this day, to the point of barely having ranks and of having no secret military doctrine to speak of because it's all constantly debated in public? did you know that rough drafts of soviet five year plans were passed down all the way to individual villages to be voted on and amended before they were actually ratified by the supreme soviet and put into practice? people talk about the zapatistas as though they're the first socialists to ever come up with the idea of voting, when, in fact, every socialist state from the beginning has only been able to field armies, whether military or industrial, because they enjoyed the broad consent and input of their constituent populations Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 19:10 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 19:04
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Quetzadilla posted:I, for one, think it would be hilarious to repatriate 300 million americans to the four corners of the globe to which they have no real personal connection or support system like so many DREAMers. Indigenous communities would definitely deport the entire population of the north american continent if given back what was stolen from them gently caress off
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Feb 11, 2021 19:16
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building a revolutionary future by obsessing over a past which can never be returned to
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Feb 11, 2021 19:26
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The Oldest Man posted:Indigenous communities would definitely deport the entire population of the north american continent if given back what was stolen from them 
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Feb 11, 2021 19:29
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https://www.indigenousaction.org/wp-content/uploads/simple-file-list/decolonization.pdf
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Feb 11, 2021 19:48
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TOM is being sarcastic you can tell this because he wrote "gently caress off" in response to an insane and idiotic idea hope this helps you in your posting journey, op Pentecoastal Elites has issued a correction as of 20:04 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 19:56
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why is every anarchist argument in defense of an anarchist society actually working in today's world either reproducing the state precisely but then not calling it the state or trying to convince you that you don't actually need medicine or to cross any distance greater than a day's mule ride and actually you're a hosed up authoritarian for thinking that might make life better for anyone
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Feb 11, 2021 20:02
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exmarx posted:not to open the "are the zapatistas anarchist" can of worms, but the ezln isn't anarchist they’re anarchish, which I think is a very reasonable way of doing things. compromise among the left (not socdems) is good
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Feb 11, 2021 20:07
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all i want to know is how the anarchists itt knew i was in a book club...
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Feb 11, 2021 20:07
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paul_soccer12 posted:all i want to know is how the anarchists itt knew i was in a book club... They get their talking points from the state dept.
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Feb 11, 2021 20:12
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:TOM is being sarcastic ok my bad idk about the quoted poster but i just saw his av and lol
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Feb 11, 2021 20:14
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indigi posted:they’re anarchish, which I think is a very reasonable way of doing things. compromise among the left (not socdems) is good it's not actually a compromise. it's not, like, a point of communist doctrine that every last villager needs to be treated like a military conscript on principle, such that communists have to compromise and walk back from their all-consuming lust for control for temporary practical reasons. you can find rhetoric to that effect in like, some trotsky quotes from early in the russian revolution, not any serious thinkers or organizers
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Feb 11, 2021 20:15
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The Oldest Man posted:Indigenous communities would definitely deport the entire population of the north american continent if given back what was stolen from them anarchists seem to care a great deal about property rights
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Feb 11, 2021 20:33
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Communists are really just the cops of the revolution if you think about it.
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Feb 11, 2021 20:33
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Anarchists/Communists Are Bastards
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Feb 11, 2021 20:34
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Wheeee posted:anarchists seem to care a great deal about property rights and the NAP. makes ya think
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Feb 11, 2021 21:16
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Orange Devil posted:lol what no? Right, I understand that they lean that way, I just assumed it was understood that they'd be unable to defeat capital without a centralized state and had sort of acquiesced to the inevitability of it all. I actually think "surviving" capital is a pretty reasonable strategy in our current context, but I admit to being confused how some anarchists hope to fight capitalism without a government? At least in a way that makes them any different from Lenin? I'm a dumbass though so that isn't very surprising that I'd be confused.
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Feb 11, 2021 21:50
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I think One Piece provides a workable model for how communists (the revolutionary army) and anarchists (pirates) can meaningfully co-exist. Never share screen-time and do crimes against the state. Also eat lots of produce.
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Feb 12, 2021 00:04
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christmas boots posted:I think One Piece provides a workable model for how communists (the revolutionary army) and anarchists (pirates) can meaningfully co-exist. my big problem with one piece is that the anarchists keep installing princesses to power. true anarchism is when you erect puppet states to support your stateless lifestyle
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Feb 12, 2021 00:13
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Deified Data posted:Right, I understand that they lean that way, I just assumed it was understood that they'd be unable to defeat capital without a centralized state and had sort of acquiesced to the inevitability of it all. I actually think "surviving" capital is a pretty reasonable strategy in our current context, but I admit to being confused how some anarchists hope to fight capitalism without a government? At least in a way that makes them any different from Lenin? I'm a dumbass though so that isn't very surprising that I'd be confused. the NSA guy reading this thread has the same questions
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Feb 12, 2021 00:28
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miniscule12 posted:my big problem with one piece is that the anarchists keep installing princesses to power. This is a fair objection and I don't really have a rebuttal.
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Feb 12, 2021 00:32
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The Oldest Man posted:Indigenous communities would definitely deport the entire population of the north american continent if given back what was stolen from them drat good thing I didn't argue that they'd actually do this and instead just made a post about a thing that would be funny
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Feb 12, 2021 00:41
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