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Gort
Aug 18, 2003

Good day what ho cup of tea

Boba Pearl posted:

You can do dark souls combat, by stealing from WoW / FF:XIV raids. Place a large hitbox on the field, anyone in that hitbox will receive X amount of damage. They start to get more complex as the battle goes on. From what I understand most DND 4e battles don't go past turn 4 or 5, so you want to up the complexity fast. Maybe even open with the attack so that it can't be avoided the first time, and then place the hitbox down for the next time.

A good resource for GMs looking to make good boss combats would be a summary of all the boss gimmicks from all the WoW dungeons and raids. There are tons of good ones, and they work. It's been years since I played WoW but I still vaguely remember gimmicks like, "The boss negatively charges half the party and positively charges the other half. If negatively charged characters get close to positively charged ones they both get zapped for big damage".

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Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:


I've got kind of a random GM'ing question that I'm not so sure how to tackle, given that it's kinda conflicting between wanting to be friendly and welcoming to newbies while also wanting to hew close to source material:

Say I'm thinking of running an RPG set in the universe of a well-known licensed IP. One of the big ones that most people already know at least a bit about via cultural osmosis -- your Star Warses/Treks, your Marvels, your Lovecrafts, etc. As a GM, the kind of game I would like to run this time around would ideally involve players that had a certain level of existing familiarity and fondness for that setting, so that we can spend less time stumbling around with people getting familiar with the universe, and more time telling a cool story. I'm not talking "everyone in the group needs to be a lore sperg", but just making sure that my potential players are already sufficiently bought-in to the setting so that I can spend less time focusing on things like "are they all picking up what I'm laying down here" and more time focusing on things like "making sure everyone has lots of fun telling a neat story together".

My questions: Is it a dickish move to explicitly state that I prefer players with a more-than-casual familiarity with the setting when posting a new game on an LFG forum (not necessarily SA)? Is this terrible gatekeeper-ism? Am I part of the problem?

Edit: I mean I guess it also sorta goes along with similar questions like "is it bad if I outline the exact kind of player I'm looking for, instead of being welcoming for anyone to apply"? Like, if I were wanting to run a sandbox Traveller campaign set on a free trader, I would of course be wanting to prioritize players with a higher degree of fondness for trade campaigns and an innate love of Excel. Or if I were wanting to run Apocalypse World, I would prioritize players who constantly ooze narrative and want to be a bit more "serious" about their roleplaying, etc. I just don't know if laying stuff like that out there in the LFG post is dickish, snobby, and gatekeepey, because I can't shake the feeling that it kinda is?

Drone fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Feb 11, 2021

My Lovely Horse
Aug 21, 2010

Personally I wouldn't even apply for a game like that if I wasn't at least somewhat familiar with the IP. I think that's perfectly fine. I almost feel like it's more important to make clear how closely you want to stick to established stories and canon and with the large ones, especially which.

Say you run a Star Trek game, as a potential player I'd be wondering: which Star Trek? Is it explicitly TNG era, Voyager era, TOS era, and if yes to any of those, do we treat the others as canon also; do we get to influence "canon" events, like can we keep Captain Picard from ever becoming Borg or is that going to happen no matter what; is That One Guy going to be in the game who says we can't do a thing because it contradicts page 147 in some novelization...

e:

quote:

Edit: I mean I guess it also sorta goes along with similar questions like "is it bad if I outline the exact kind of player I'm looking for, instead of being welcoming for anyone to apply"? Like, if I were wanting to run a sandbox Traveller campaign set on a free trader, I would of course be wanting to prioritize players with a higher degree of fondness for trade campaigns and an innate love of Excel. Or if I were wanting to run Apocalypse World, I would prioritize players who constantly ooze narrative and want to be a bit more "serious" about their roleplaying, etc. I just don't know if laying stuff like that out there in the LFG post is dickish, snobby, and gatekeepey, because I can't shake the feeling that it kinda is?
Ah okay; in that case I'd say, let anyone apply who wants to apply. You're still going to make the decision anyway, maybe you get an application you like you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. Although a quick word on the gameplay style you're going for certainly wouldn't go amiss either way.

My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Feb 11, 2021

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!



Drone posted:

My questions: Is it a dickish move to explicitly state that I prefer players with a more-than-casual familiarity with the setting when posting a new game on an LFG forum (not necessarily SA)? Is this terrible gatekeeper-ism? Am I part of the problem?

Edit: I mean I guess it also sorta goes along with similar questions like "is it bad if I outline the exact kind of player I'm looking for, instead of being welcoming for anyone to apply"? Like, if I were wanting to run a sandbox Traveller campaign set on a free trader, I would of course be wanting to prioritize players with a higher degree of fondness for trade campaigns and an innate love of Excel. Or if I were wanting to run Apocalypse World, I would prioritize players who constantly ooze narrative and want to be a bit more "serious" about their roleplaying, etc. I just don't know if laying stuff like that out there in the LFG post is dickish, snobby, and gatekeepey, because I can't shake the feeling that it kinda is?
I think if you have a specific reason for it and that reason has a functional purpose, you are probably doing everyone involved a favor. I was in a pickup game at a con that leaned deep into some arcane lore about Doctor Who which was giving a few people there total nerd boners but me and my pal were just kind of like, "ha ha, yes. doctor who. i like the robot dog" -- had that person been up front in their session description that it was kind of a canon nerd thing, neither of us would have signed up, but that would have been a good thing.

It also sounds like you're not aiming for "heh, you better know the lore... scrub," either.

I would quibble briefly with the "constantly ooze narrative" part but that is because that seems very wide open, while the other examples (familiarity with an IP you intend to do deep dives with; being whole-heartedly on board with fighting through a sandbox with spreadsheet and blaster) are more quantifiable play experiences.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:


My Lovely Horse posted:

Say you run a Star Trek game, as a potential player I'd be wondering: which Star Trek? Is it explicitly TNG era, Voyager era, TOS era, and if yes to any of those, do we treat the others as canon also; do we get to influence "canon" events, like can we keep Captain Picard from ever becoming Borg or is that going to happen no matter what; is That One Guy going to be in the game who says we can't do a thing because it contradicts page 147 in some novelization...

I mean I should have just come right out and said the obvious but yeah, it's a Star Trek game. I had previous experience as a player in an unfortunately short-lived Trek campaign set in the TOS movie era, and we had a few issues involving players who were, don't get me wrong, definitely big Trek fans. But who also had no fondness for that era and hadn't even seen the movies (which was also kind of a huge "god, I'm old" moment, realizing that there are legions of fans out there who love the franchise as much as I do without having ever once interacting with large chunks of it).

It's a huge IP with room for fans of all different kinds, and I love and appreciate that, but each era kinda has its own different themes that pull people toward it, and being on board with stuff like that is kinda a requirement.

I do want to caveat it by saying that it's not at all about making sure that the campaign I'd run is ~canon~. I've done long-lived games in licensed IP's before (mainly Star Wars) and my approach there has always been "established canon stops the moment the group begins their Session 1". My concerns are more about exploring the themes and tones that each era has unique to them.

Nessus posted:

"ha ha, yes. doctor who. i like the robot dog" -- had that person been up front in their session description that it was kind of a canon nerd thing, neither of us would have signed up, but that would have been a good thing.

It also sounds like you're not aiming for "heh, you better know the lore... scrub," either.

Yeah. Don't get me wrong, I really like running games for people who have the "i like robot dog"-levels of familiarity with a setting. But only when that's the kind of game that I as a GM am looking to run -- it's very fun to take the established cultural touchstones of an IP as the only common denominator and allowing people to explore a world without necessarily being deep in its fluff, and I like that that can sometimes inspire people to get into the things I enjoy. Trek is particularly great for that, since its hallmarks are: campy space adventure, lots of primary colors, occasional philosophizing with a moral to the story and a happy ending. Everyone knows that much about Star Trek, and it makes that level of buy-in easy.

On the other hand, sometimes I just want to put an ad out there for a group that doesn't necessarily need to be sold on the setting already, and gets what I'm going for from the get-go.

Drone fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Feb 11, 2021

My Lovely Horse
Aug 21, 2010

It occurs to me that "you will literally be the senior officers of the Enterprise-D in Star Trek TNG, create your character and choose your position, any unfilled will be the characters from the show" would be a pretty great setup for a game that tells you everything you need to know about the level of involvement and canon-sticking.

also gives the DM a hundred and seventy-eight adventure hooks

My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Feb 11, 2021

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

I don't think it's a problem to ask people to have familiarity with a setting when running a game based on it. For starters it's likely to attract people who have it more than not, and having to explain basic concepts will distract from GMing.

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

Help a hero out!
it sounds like you've already decided what kind of players you want for the style of game you're interested in running, so if anything it'd be dishonest to not state that you're looking for people with a certain level of lore knowledge (or however you want to phrase that). obviously don't forbid anyone from applying, but i don't really know how you'd even do that in the first place.

aldantefax
Oct 10, 2007

ALWAYS BE MECHFISHIN'
Having player expectations is natural for a GM and being clear about the type of game you want to do (a mostly faithful canonical thing in the Star Trek setting) plus the type of player you want (someone familiar with the setting) isn’t bad. I guess it would be good to ask why you need familiarity with the setting beyond a normal read through, like do you need to have players be intimately familiar with core setting concepts like the Prime Directive, time travel, Starfleet / Cardassian relationships, or similar?

If you don’t have a pre-filter in place and you go put an open recruitment out for experienced players there’s nothing wrong with that, similar to how one would ask for experienced players in any other system. Others might be willing to help but if you can clarify why you want players of a certain type to your wider audience then you can help them get into the right mindset respectfully.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Are we just letting "sperg" fly now? I'm not a fan of that.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos

I was mulling whether to say something or report it and ended up getting distracted.

Drone
Aug 22, 2003

Incredible machine
:smug:


Is it reportable now? Honestly didn't even realize I had put it in there, I'll refrain from using it in the future. Old habits die hard.

Anyway, thanks to the others for giving me some food for thought on my question. I feel a bit less weird about potentially being a little picky about my players now.

Absurd Alhazred
Mar 27, 2010

by Athanatos
I think it's been an SA-wide trend to move away from such language, although I see the relevant smiley is still there.

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I think it's been an SA-wide trend to move away from such language, although I see the relevant smiley is still there.

Must be one of those load-bearing slurs I keep hearing about. But yeah, it's not a cool term to use.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

aldantefax posted:

Cards + tabletop RPGs combining has always been a pretty underutilized space, I feel like.

Cards not being utilized very much is exactly the right amount, at least in terms of resolution mechanics. They're prone to damage, prone to dirt, shuffling well enough to get a decently random sample is much harder than people assume, they're basically just worse than dice for everything except presenting information. I hate them, they stink!

Cards as memory aids is a great idea but that's a very different subject.

King of Solomon
Oct 23, 2008

S S

drrockso20 posted:

Still want to do that idea I had for a Yu-Gi-Oh RPG where combat is resolved through actually playing a modified version of the real card game

Rush duels, start with one of the initial starter decks, and build progression mechanics around getting new cards (spend EXP to pick up specific new cards with pricing based on the card's power level), figure out a resolution mechanic for when you're not actually playing the game.

Personally, I wouldn't be thrilled with this idea because Rush Duels are lame, but it's also more or less exactly what someone would come up with if they were trying to modify the rules to make playing the actual card game a reasonable resolution mechanic.

Farg
Nov 19, 2013

Boba Pearl posted:

You can do dark souls combat, by stealing from WoW / FF:XIV raids. Place a large hitbox on the field, anyone in that hitbox will receive X amount of damage. They start to get more complex as the battle goes on. From what I understand most DND 4e battles don't go past turn 4 or 5, so you want to up the complexity fast. Maybe even open with the attack so that it can't be avoided the first time, and then place the hitbox down for the next time.

straight up, stealing 14 style AOE indicators is an easy way to add some dynamics to a fight. I got a lot of mileage in a 5e campaign all the way up through the final boss just out of stuff like "the flame jets on the LEFT HALF of the arena start to flare up, looks like bad news in about a round!" or "the giant flesh ball is slowly approaching you and forcing you closer to the cliffs edge" or "the boss summons a bunch of crystals that will each cast a spell if they still exist in a round"

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Know what I haven't heard about in a while?

Pathfinder Online.

Is it still.... Online?

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

dwarf74 posted:

Know what I haven't heard about in a while?

Pathfinder Online.

Is it still.... Online?
It looks like it...might be?

aldantefax
Oct 10, 2007

ALWAYS BE MECHFISHIN'

dwarf74 posted:

Know what I haven't heard about in a while?

Pathfinder Online.

Is it still.... Online?

As far as I know, it tanked.

Elector_Nerdlingen
Sep 27, 2004



dwarf74 posted:

Know what I haven't heard about in a while?

Pathfinder Online.

Is it still.... Online?

Is that the one where the weirdo potential playerbase sooked so hard at the possibility of goons griefing their yet-to-be-released elf simulator that the devs released a statement that anyone from SA would be banned on sight? Or am I thinking about something else?

senrath
Nov 4, 2009

Look Professor, a destruct switch!


aldantefax posted:

As far as I know, it tanked.

It tanked but it's still online as far as I can tell.

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Elector_Nerdlingen posted:

Is that the one where the weirdo playerbase sooked so hard available at the possibility of goons griefing their yet-to-be-released elf simulator that the devs released a statement that anyone from SA would be banned on sight? Or am I thinking about something else?
Yeah, that's the one.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


Evil Mastermind posted:

Yeah, that's the one.

Incredible.

Jon Bois did a video of "how good would Sammy Sosa be at batting without a bat" and I like this parallel of "how good would Goonswarm be at trolling without a game."

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

King of Solomon posted:

Rush duels, start with one of the initial starter decks, and build progression mechanics around getting new cards (spend EXP to pick up specific new cards with pricing based on the card's power level), figure out a resolution mechanic for when you're not actually playing the game.

Personally, I wouldn't be thrilled with this idea because Rush Duels are lame, but it's also more or less exactly what someone would come up with if they were trying to modify the rules to make playing the actual card game a reasonable resolution mechanic.

Nah wouldn't use Rush Duel rules(for one thing that version hasn't even left Japan yet plus the card pool is too small), might borrow some bits from the Speed Duels/Duel Links format though(especiallythe skills system), but yeah a bit aspect of character progression would be in improving one's deck, like a starting character would be about on par with early Duelist Kingdom where most of one's deck is composed of crappy low stat no effect monsters and maybe a couple actually useful cards

Also playing the card game would only be for major events much like in the source material, probably just use a very rules light system for everything else

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

GimpInBlack posted:

Must be one of those load-bearing slurs I keep hearing about. But yeah, it's not a cool term to use.

Smiley names aren't load-bearing, and there's been an effort recently to scrub the really lovely-named ones. I'll ping the admins about it because I think this qualifies.


Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Cards not being utilized very much is exactly the right amount, at least in terms of resolution mechanics. They're prone to damage, prone to dirt, shuffling well enough to get a decently random sample is much harder than people assume, they're basically just worse than dice for everything except presenting information. I hate them, they stink!

Cards as memory aids is a great idea but that's a very different subject.

This doesn't seem to be a major problem for boardgames that use cards, or for card games, so I don't know why it has to be a problem for RPGs that use cards. If players are concerned about damage, they can do the standard thing and sleeve them, right?

Cards add mechanic possibilities that aren't there with dice. I agree that one should not just swap cards for dice. But you can do things like have a discard pile, which changes the characteristics of the options left in the deck; have effects that let you look at the top of your deck and bury that card if you want; effects that let you interact with the discard pile; etc. etc. etc. There's a lot to be done with cards. Magic is the obvious exemplar of how a game can be built from literally tens of thousands of cards (far fewer in any given format/rotation of course, but still). But I've also seen board games and even RPGs that use cards to some extent.
D&D 4E had a number of utilities that would let you print your at-will/encounter/dailies on cards, which is a nice way to reference them, and remember what you have left, at the table, for example. I have a box somewhere that has most (all?) D&D 2E spells printed on playing cards, presumably useful for a variety of purposes beyond just thumbing through them aimlessly.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

yeah thats pretty good


Leperflesh posted:

Smiley names aren't load-bearing, and there's been an effort recently to scrub the really lovely-named ones. I'll ping the admins about it because I think this qualifies.


This doesn't seem to be a major problem for boardgames that use cards, or for card games, so I don't know why it has to be a problem for RPGs that use cards. If players are concerned about damage, they can do the standard thing and sleeve them, right?

Cards add mechanic possibilities that aren't there with dice. I agree that one should not just swap cards for dice. But you can do things like have a discard pile, which changes the characteristics of the options left in the deck; have effects that let you look at the top of your deck and bury that card if you want; effects that let you interact with the discard pile; etc. etc. etc. There's a lot to be done with cards. Magic is the obvious exemplar of how a game can be built from literally tens of thousands of cards (far fewer in any given format/rotation of course, but still). But I've also seen board games and even RPGs that use cards to some extent.
D&D 4E had a number of utilities that would let you print your at-will/encounter/dailies on cards, which is a nice way to reference them, and remember what you have left, at the table, for example. I have a box somewhere that has most (all?) D&D 2E spells printed on playing cards, presumably useful for a variety of purposes beyond just thumbing through them aimlessly.

There's a common bias that a TTRPG should be basically infinitely durable - that if you buy a copy of Monster of the Week that copy should be ready for you to do a 40+ year game with the only question about durability being if it gets trashed by dropping coke on it. I think this is kind of silly - I've played one campaign of MOTW and I will likely never play another, there's just too many more RPGs I want to try with the finite number of game sessions I have left in my life.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord
Man, I love playing cards in rpgs.

One of my favorite parts of Savage Worlds is how they're used for initiative.

Kestral
Nov 24, 2000

Forum Veteran
On the subject of rarely-seen mechanics, what systems have good base-building / community-building subsystems? I know they're in Pendragon and Harn, and a little bit in Dungeon World, but I can't recall where else it's been done well.

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


Blades in the Dark has some pretty robust crew/operations/territory rules. Your whole criminal enterprise gets a character sheet for itself.

DocBubonic
Mar 11, 2003

Tempora mutantur, et nos mutamur in illis
I recently went in on some game kickstarters. Among them some Zine ones. There was one that I wanted to get, but the kick starter was over. The name of the game is Mother loving Dungeon Punks. Does anyone in here know anything about it and if there's some place to purchase it? I've looked at Drivethru and Itch.io, but I can't find it in either place.

Coolness Averted
Feb 20, 2007

oh don't worry, I can't smell asparagus piss, it's in my DNA

GO HOGG WILD!
🐗🐗🐗🐗🐗

That Old Tree posted:

Blades in the Dark has some pretty robust crew/operations/territory rules. Your whole criminal enterprise gets a character sheet for itself.

Also has some decent rules for how the other factions interact with your crew and eachother so you wind up with some potentially robust city building.

dwarf74
Sep 2, 2012



Buglord

Evil Mastermind posted:

It looks like it...might be?
Holy poo poo

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

Tulip posted:

Incredible.

Jon Bois did a video of "how good would Sammy Sosa be at batting without a bat" and I like this parallel of "how good would Goonswarm be at trolling without a game."

The thing was, there wasn't even any talk of doing a goonswarm. The entire reaction here was basically "Wow that's going to crash and burn. So anyway..."

Haystack
Jan 23, 2005





Kestral posted:

On the subject of rarely-seen mechanics, what systems have good base-building / community-building subsystems? I know they're in Pendragon and Harn, and a little bit in Dungeon World, but I can't recall where else it's been done well.

Spellbound Kingdoms has some pretty ambitious rules for PC-led organizations with a lot of great power-building aspects to it. I really like how enthusiastic it is about handing the players agency:

King of Solomon
Oct 23, 2008

S S

drrockso20 posted:

Nah wouldn't use Rush Duel rules(for one thing that version hasn't even left Japan yet plus the card pool is too small), might borrow some bits from the Speed Duels/Duel Links format though(especiallythe skills system), but yeah a bit aspect of character progression would be in improving one's deck, like a starting character would be about on par with early Duelist Kingdom where most of one's deck is composed of crappy low stat no effect monsters and maybe a couple actually useful cards

Also playing the card game would only be for major events much like in the source material, probably just use a very rules light system for everything else

I was thinking you'd use a simulator where having access to the cards was less of an issue, but yeah I can see that. The thing about Rush Duels for this kind of thing is the ability to get out boss monsters on turn 1 while still being relatively simple rules-wise, but I definitely considered something like Speed Duels, too, because having access to skills seems like an interesting thing to have in an RPG.

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

Tulip posted:

There's a common bias that a TTRPG should be basically infinitely durable - that if you buy a copy of Monster of the Week that copy should be ready for you to do a 40+ year game with the only question about durability being if it gets trashed by dropping coke on it. I think this is kind of silly - I've played one campaign of MOTW and I will likely never play another, there's just too many more RPGs I want to try with the finite number of game sessions I have left in my life.

I think the old 1st edition AD&D books set that standard, from all I've heard those books were tanks

King of Solomon posted:

I was thinking you'd use a simulator where having access to the cards was less of an issue, but yeah I can see that. The thing about Rush Duels for this kind of thing is the ability to get out boss monsters on turn 1 while still being relatively simple rules-wise, but I definitely considered something like Speed Duels, too, because having access to skills seems like an interesting thing to have in an RPG.

Speed Duels as the basis(albeit with further modifications) is a good balance between speeding the game up as needed while keeping it feeling like the version of the game that most people would want to emulate with this concept

As for skills yeah in fact I'd be expanding upon them quite a bit, both for one's that actively effect the duel like the existing ones and ones that would be used to modify the deck while building it

Really the main challenge is figuring out how to balance cards beyond just simple DM fiat, like one could probably figure out a point system of sorts for doing it(after all several of the video games did it), I'd just need someone better at math to help with that

Vadun
Mar 9, 2011

I'm hungrier than a green snake in a sugar cane field.

Kestral posted:

On the subject of rarely-seen mechanics, what systems have good base-building / community-building subsystems? I know they're in Pendragon and Harn, and a little bit in Dungeon World, but I can't recall where else it's been done well.

Pendragons base building is mediocre at best, even with all the add on books.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Tulip posted:

There's a common bias that a TTRPG should be basically infinitely durable

that's not a "bias", that's just being completely correct on a aesthetic, practical, and moral level :colbert:

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Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009

We shall dive down through black abysses... and in that lair of the Deep Ones we shall dwell amidst wonder and glory forever.



Kestral posted:

On the subject of rarely-seen mechanics, what systems have good base-building / community-building subsystems? I know they're in Pendragon and Harn, and a little bit in Dungeon World, but I can't recall where else it's been done well.

Wait, did I have a stroke? Since when does Dungeon World have base-building mechanics in it?

I'm not against it of course, but I have no memory of that from the rulebook.

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