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Leperflesh posted:Cards add mechanic possibilities that aren't there with dice. On the flip side, dice don't have the issue of presenting a barrier to usage for those with impaired manual dexterity. At worst, god forbid, we bring out a dice tower (or commit true sacrilege and use electronic dice). I don't play games that require card shuffling. Not gonna hold everyone up for an age trying to make my fingers work for fine control, not gonna make someone else shuffle for me. Plenty of games that don't need cards to work just fine. Cards as reference material are fine, but I'll just end up copying them to something that isn't a card eventually.
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Feb 12, 2021 04:36
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Xiahou Dun posted:Wait, did I have a stroke? Since when does Dungeon World have base-building mechanics in it? I think they're talking about the civilization and outpost rules, and how you define them in relation to each other and weaknesses the party helping them builds up those bonds and can level them up, failing to makes them less prosperous and smaller. It actually has a pretty neat subsystem for building them up, while having nothing for mapping and building dungeons funny enough.
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Feb 12, 2021 05:01
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Tulip posted:There's a common bias that a TTRPG should be basically infinitely durable - that if you buy a copy of Monster of the Week that copy should be ready for you to do a 40+ year game with the only question about durability being if it gets trashed by dropping coke on it. I think this is kind of silly - I've played one campaign of MOTW and I will likely never play another, there's just too many more RPGs I want to try with the finite number of game sessions I have left in my life. I mean a game book can get beat up, but the one issue with cards- if you're using them as a means of random selection- is they can get marked which compromises their play value. Sleeves help at least. That having been said. We've got RPGs that use dice. We've got RPGs that use cards. We've got one RPG at least using Jenga. Where are the RPG systems that use Mah Jong tiles?
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Feb 12, 2021 05:35
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Maxwell Lord posted:That having been said. We've got RPGs that use dice. We've got RPGs that use cards. We've got one RPG at least using Jenga. “The target number is East Wind.” “I drew a Flower, is that enough?” “Keep it and draw another tile.” “Rice Bird” “Right. You hit, and put a tick next to your skill. It’ll increase to 60,000 if you draw a Green Dragon or better.”
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Feb 12, 2021 06:40
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In terms of cards, I get the physical durability, but also, sleeves as mentioned, but also, virtual cards? I'm interested conceptually in cards because they allow for some underutilized randomization curating because you can stack the decks. For example, you can emulate having 3d6 by having 3 piles of cards numbered 1 through 6 and you dealt from each pile, but what if you added or removed results from a stack (Gloomhaven) or you modified the outcome based on the orientation of the cards after a virtual shuffle (tarot)? This comes up mostly because old games like Everway did do stuff with cards and other systems do use it as well (Savage Worlds, DramaSystem, MOTOBUSHIDO, etc.) Anyway I'm not attempting to pick a fight, just more wanted to be like "Cards: they're neat"
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Feb 12, 2021 07:18
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aldantefax posted:I'm interested conceptually in cards because they allow for some underutilized randomization curating because you can stack the decks. For example, you can emulate having 3d6 by having 3 piles of cards numbered 1 through 6 and you dealt from each pile, but what if you added or removed results from a stack (Gloomhaven) or you modified the outcome based on the orientation of the cards after a virtual shuffle (tarot)? You can do all sorts of interesting things with cards, but an important thing to keep in mind in game design is that fancy dice systems—and by extension cards—are rarely actually interesting. Fancy dice/card/other randomization systems are typically solutions looking for problems.
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Feb 12, 2021 07:41
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SkyeAuroline posted:On the flip side, dice don't have the issue of presenting a barrier to usage for those with impaired manual dexterity. At worst, god forbid, we bring out a dice tower (or commit true sacrilege and use electronic dice). OTOH, not every game needs to be made for every audience. Dread is also impossible for people with impaired manual dexterity, and many games feature themes that make them impossible for people with a variety of traumas to play. They should still be avenues open to exploration. Edit: Feels like people are unnecessarily hung up on the randomization aspect of cards, when it's the "is a physical object you can tie novel mechanics to" aspect that gives them their real design utility.
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Feb 12, 2021 07:45
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SkyeAuroline posted:On the flip side, dice don't have the issue of presenting a barrier to usage for those with impaired manual dexterity. At worst, god forbid, we bring out a dice tower (or commit true sacrilege and use electronic dice). I think accessibility is very important and worth consideration, and it's good for people with different abilities to talk about it, so thank you especially for this post. In my professional capacity we have both policies and a legal obligation to maximize accessibility for our products and documentation. I've been through some training and use some tools and after many years of doing that, while I'm sure nothing we can do makes anything 100% accessible to everyone, there's a hell of a lot of low-hanging fruit there and also a lot of technologies that make it easier than ever to make things accessible to a huge range of people. I'm therefore convinced that games with physical components can also be accessible in a lot of ways. Fax mentioned digital options for cards. Cards also have the problem of being inaccessible for visually impaired people, which classically has been treated by sometimes maybe having a braille version available, but that's both expensive and also doesn't help all visually impaired people. That's another place where a digital application (with audio-based accessibility) might could help. Anyway, I'll reiterate that I don't think cards are a good option as a simple substitute for dice. But I do think they offer a number of options for game mechanisms that are underexplored in the pen and paper RPG arena, while being far, fare better explored in the boardgame and card game arenas. I'll hazard a guess that a ton of boardgames (with or without cards) are not very accessible (or at all) for people with impaired manual dexterity. Food for thought.
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Feb 12, 2021 08:07
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If the cards' form factor was kept to be the same as standard playing cards, you could also use automatic shufflers, which seem common and not too expensive (many under $25 after a quick glance at the devil Bezos site). Of course that doesn't leave you a lot of room for fancy art.
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Feb 12, 2021 08:38
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Using cards gives more random result options beyond standard dice, with possible added meanings per card as well. A Tarot deck consists of two groups: 22 major and 56 minor adding to 78 total. All of those numbers are pretty difficult to hit with dice.
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Feb 12, 2021 08:49
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cowboy
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DocBubonic posted:I recently went in on some game kickstarters. Among them some Zine ones. There was one that I wanted to get, but the kick starter was over. The name of the game is Mother loving Dungeon Punks. Does anyone in here know anything about it and if there's some place to purchase it? I've looked at Drivethru and Itch.io, but I can't find it in either place. Are you sure that was the name of the game? I had a google for it and didn't find it. I can offer you Monsterpunk Unleashed or Extreme Meatpunks Forever as potential options?
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Feb 12, 2021 13:49
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probably Goddamn loving Dungeon Punks
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Feb 12, 2021 14:05
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Vadun posted:Pendragons base building is mediocre at best, even with all the add on books. It outright says iirc it's designed to be more personal expression and customisation than a major mechanical impact. I'd probably nerf bees. Key thing I think is that building a base or organisation shouldn't really be that different from building a character.
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Feb 12, 2021 15:17
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aldantefax posted:For example, you can emulate having 3d6 by having 3 piles of cards numbered 1 through 6 and you dealt from each pile Keep in mind that unless you put the cards back and reshuffle, the probability distribution is going to be different after the first deal. That might be what you want to do, but then a 216-card deck with the possible 3d6 results with repetition is what's going to not start going off really really fast and will give an actual same overall distribution when gone through. Depending on how many multiples of 6 cards numbered 1-6 you have in the three piles.
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Feb 12, 2021 16:29
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Leperflesh posted:Smiley names aren't load-bearing, and there's been an effort recently to scrub the really lovely-named ones. I'll ping the admins about it because I think this qualifies. The word from On High is: "When there is a mechanism to change the names of smilies without breaking posts that use them, the old names will be revisited." That's not a no, they do want to change out a bunch of the old bad smiley names, but there's an interest in not breaking every old thread that used them so they want to do something more technically difficult, which also means it's not coming Real Soon Now or anything.
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Feb 12, 2021 19:06
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Leperflesh posted:The word from On High is: "When there is a mechanism to change the names of smilies without breaking posts that use them, the old names will be revisited." Honestly, with SA's status as the internet equivalent of a historically significant site, I can respect that. This has probably been suggested, but just on the off chance that it hasn't: could we just get new smilies with the same images as the problematic ones, but with different names? Preserves the existing threads, lets people use useful emoticons without having to Write A Slur. Ghost Leviathan posted:Key thing I think is that building a base or organisation shouldn't really be that different from building a character. This more an aesthetic preference than a dictum of good game design, IMO. Personally, I'd love to play something like a Rimworld / Stardew Valley / Valheim RPG, where a major focus of gameplay is to acquire the resources (materials, technology, expertise, relationships, etc.) to build something: a settlement, fortress, cathedral, space station, etc. Let the "base" have meaningfully different mechanics from the characters to emphasize the themes and aesthetic of whatever it is you're constructing, and to enable interesting choices that don't resemble PC-scale choices at all. Kestral fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 19:50
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Pathfinder Online Open Enrollment v2.4 Release Notes posted:
These two bullet points from the release notes of the most recent patch tell me literally everything I need to know about the game.
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Feb 12, 2021 21:39
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Kestral posted:This has probably been suggested, but just on the off chance that it hasn't: could we just get new smilies with the same images as the problematic ones, but with different names? Preserves the existing threads, lets people use useful emoticons without having to Write A Slur. I think this is one of the approaches being considered, yes. No firm decision made yet though.
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Feb 12, 2021 21:52
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It seems to me that if "sperging" is a slur, then " " as the visual embodiment of the word/idea must necessarily also be considered one. The image itself carries meaning; surely if people write things like "lol stop about smilies you goon" that is the main problem no matter what string they use behind the scenes to call up the image. Honestly this one in particular seems a pretty single-purpose smilie if you get right down to it no matter what tag it has.As well as that, for how many years people round here have been using " " when they wanted to write "sperging"; if we redefine what the smilie means now we'll retroactively change the intent behind all those posts and, in a way, pretend it never meant anything else that whatever harmless new name we give it. I'd rather preserve these old posts as they are even if what they are is lovely, that way we have mistakes to point to and say "we've moved on from that in particular."You know what I mean? I just can't help but picture some new guy in 5 years reading old threads* and going "wow, people have been using that sweet :singleminded: smilie for a long time, this must have always been a real friendly and inclusive place" *I do realize that scenario is being optimistic about several things
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Feb 12, 2021 23:21
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My Lovely Horse posted:It seems to me that if "sperging" is a slur, then " I'd be in favor of preserving the smiley in existing posts while limiting or preventing its use moving forward, if that's possible. I think it might be a better idea to develop a new smiley moving forward if we wanted to preserve the not intrinsically ableist aspects of the original to properly differentiate it. That particular term/smiley has long been used interchangeably with "a nerd being insufferable and deliberately obtuse" which I think needs to be decoupled as a concept from people actually on the autistic spectrum since it not only presents being on the spectrum as an insult-worthy thing but also needlessly associates bad nerd behavior with the condition. Basically: Remove the ableist smiley, maybe make a new one of a smug nerd adjusting his glasses.
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Feb 13, 2021 01:26
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 you say?
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Feb 13, 2021 01:34
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That works very well! (Man, I keep losing track of all the smilies we have...)
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Feb 13, 2021 01:41
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honestly, as someone on the autism spectrum, i think some of the problem is way deeper and simply goes to the fact that people treat literal-mindedness and attention to detail like insufferable character flaws like half the time when "sperg" or that emote are evoked it's not even really a mischaracterization of autism, it's just people treating something neutral (or even occasionally positive) like it's a crime just because it isn't socially typical e: which is to say, i wouldn't be sad to see it go, but "decoupling" doesn't really cover it
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Feb 13, 2021 02:31
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:honestly, as someone on the autism spectrum, i think some of the problem is way deeper and simply goes to the fact that people treat literal-mindedness and attention to detail like insufferable character flaws I say "sperg" in a mostly neutral way to describe some of my own behavior, and I think it's hilarious that this is seen as more problematic by some people than open contempt for us weirdos. 
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Feb 13, 2021 03:09
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I am working on some system neutral things at the moment that might be useful as a purely optional format to start systematically breaking down mechanical or narrative issues in games thanks to my day job brain leaking into my night brain. I don’t think it’s worth its own thread but I think it might be good to put...Somewhere? Here, maybe? Also, does anybody know any artists looking for work making some game icons and illustrations? Send em my way, as I’m still on the lookout for a copy editor for my game ramblings as well as more artists to throw money at for cool visual things.
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Feb 13, 2021 03:24
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DressCodeBlue posted:I say "sperg" in a mostly neutral way to describe some of my own behavior, and I think it's hilarious that this is seen as more problematic by some people than open contempt for us weirdos. There's a not insignificant number of goons who think that the problem with [pick a word] is the word itself rather than the true intent of the person using it, and I think it's funny in the saddest, most ironic way that there are so many tone policing backseat mods on SA in 2021 when just a few years ago that poo poo would get you a ban and/or an ALOD depending on where you were spouting off.
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Feb 13, 2021 03:25
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Would you say that Political Correctness has, indeed, gone rampant?
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Feb 13, 2021 03:28
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I pretty much agree with you guys' takes on the sperg thing, and have communicated as much, but essentially it's in jeffrey and the admins' hands now and whenever they get around to it, I hope and will encourage there to be a sitewide discussion that raises issues like those mentioned here. For now though, this is not yet on the menu so the discussion is a bit premature.
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Feb 13, 2021 03:31
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Maxwell Lord posted:I mean a game book can get beat up, but the one issue with cards- if you're using them as a means of random selection- is they can get marked which compromises their play value. Sleeves help at least. you could probably do a mahjong rpg where your action is based on the discard, and you can mark pairs/triples/sets/whatever they're called as more significant moves. Maybe level up once you get a full set. I don't know enough about mahjong itself to remember the exact terms, but that seems like the most basic structure if it's to be played kinda like mahjong.
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Feb 13, 2021 03:40
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Mr. Maltose posted:Would you say that Political Correctness has, indeed, gone rampant? Because I'm happy to not say "sperg" if it's part of a genuine effort to get people to be less lovely. Like I now know not to here, though I don't think I ever used it in my posts anyway.
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Feb 13, 2021 03:40
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Wrestlepig posted:you could probably do a mahjong rpg where your action is based on the discard, and you can mark pairs/triples/sets/whatever they're called as more significant moves. Maybe level up once you get a full set. You motherfucker. Now I want to make a riichi mahjong based RPG.
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Feb 13, 2021 03:46
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aldantefax posted:You motherfucker. Now I want to make a riichi mahjong based RPG. 200 word rpg challenge will be happening at some point this year, have a play around with that. maybe if discards are the regular action, but calling chi pon or ten gives a big advantage, you've got a good setup for a semi-competitive game. Yakuza theming is a little obvious, and you can do the castle falkenstein suits thingy. Wrestlepig fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 03:50
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Kestral posted:On the subject of rarely-seen mechanics, what systems have good base-building / community-building subsystems? I know they're in Pendragon and Harn, and a little bit in Dungeon World, but I can't recall where else it's been done well. There's some base upgrading rules for the different departments of your science organization in the FATE Atomic Robo game. I haven't gotten a chance to play it (I keep wanting to do a sort of A-Team/Black Lagoon esque thing), but reading it, it looks pretty cool.
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Feb 13, 2021 05:14
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Is there still a thread for asking "what game should I run this in?" I may have hallucinated something to this effect at some point, but I have several game ideas and formats I'd like to tap into the Trad Games posters to figure out.
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Feb 13, 2021 05:35
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karmicknight posted:Is there still a thread for asking "what game should I run this in?" I may have hallucinated something to this effect at some point, but I have several game ideas and formats I'd like to tap into the Trad Games posters to figure out. I believe you want the What System Should I Use Megathread.
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Feb 13, 2021 05:44
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Leraika posted:I believe you want the What System Should I Use Megathread. boom. thank you.
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Feb 13, 2021 05:49
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DressCodeBlue posted:More like "I'd rather people be angry about people hating autistic people than saying a bad word."
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Feb 13, 2021 08:49
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This is a cross-post, but maybe people might be interested to know I am attempting to get some people together for an open table game with the 'yobbers: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3958970 The only way I'll get to play Ryuutama is if I secretly run it!
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Feb 13, 2021 09:28
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Endorph posted:the people saying the bad word hate autistic people. it is part of a history of autistic people being seen as literally less than human. i dont think this is a very complicated angle. I think the point is more that giving them another word they can say which carries all the same negative connotations -- which is effectively what renaming the smiley would do -- doesn't make things any better, it just means a different word is now bad.
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Feb 13, 2021 11:34
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Whybird posted:I think the point is more that giving them another word they can say which carries all the same negative connotations -- which is effectively what renaming the smiley would do -- doesn't make things any better, it just means a different word is now bad.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:32
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