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It's more analogous to working a retail job: your boss is far away in an office that he never leaves and you're out on the desolate sunless floor where everything is chaos and confusion and your supervisor is barking about how they're going to have your number and report you.
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Feb 15, 2021 08:38
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And yet the tiny handful of words spent on Sauron perfectly capture his final 'me sowing/me reaping' and last gasp of grandeur before dissipating forever. There's no real reason to care about Sauron's inner motivations beyond that. Saruman gives a more human face as a villain when the hobbits return the Shire. His motivations at that point are just angry, pointless chaos. He dies as barely anything more than a tired old man, having turned away from everything he was supposed to have been long before the end.
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Feb 15, 2021 10:34
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Shiroc posted:Saruman gives a more human face as a villain when the hobbits return the Shire. His motivations at that point are just angry, pointless chaos. He dies as barely anything more than a tired old man, having turned away from everything he was supposed to have been long before the end. I always find this bit affecting - "any chance of forgiveness?" "Nope." quote:To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
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Feb 15, 2021 13:32
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Shiroc posted:Its funny how Sauron twice gets dunked on right when he thinks everything is going well. He's hanging out in Numenor enjoying how badly he screwed them when Eru sinks it and he loses his form. Then he thinks he's about to destroy the Captains of the West but gets a brief moment of realizing how badly he hosed up between when Frodo claims the Ring and it gets destroyed. There was also the time Sauron got fuckin owned by Huan.
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Feb 15, 2021 15:18
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And the time Lithium beat him in a rap battle.
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Feb 15, 2021 16:28
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Sauron is your boss at a retail job, Saruman is your boss at a food service job.
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Feb 15, 2021 16:36
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Mordor seems like it could have real "tracking the amount of time you spend in the bathroom on your shift" call center energy
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Feb 15, 2021 16:40
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Really pushing "Sauron the Great", trying to make it happen
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Feb 15, 2021 16:46
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Sauron is “I’m obviously so smart, look how I was able to trick those Elves and Numenoreans, so if everyone would just listen to me there wouldn’t be so many problems” amped up to the extreme. “Clearly the solution to all this disorder is I need to enslave everybody.”
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Feb 15, 2021 17:09
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Omnomnomnivore posted:Sauron is “I’m obviously so smart, look how I was able to trick those Elves and Numenoreans, so if everyone would just listen to me there wouldn’t be so many problems” amped up to the extreme. “Clearly the solution to all this disorder is I need to enslave everybody.” STOP NOT LETTING ME ENSLAVE YOU YOU'RE REALLY PISSING ME OFF
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Feb 15, 2021 17:45
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All I want is to create the perfect genetic orc soldier! Not for power! Not for evil! But for good!
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Feb 15, 2021 18:01
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Arcsquad12 posted:I mean Sauron being analogous to the unseen, uncaring higher level of government that sends millions of soldiers to die for causes not their own and spread untold misery while being unreachable is pretty accurate to life. That was pretty much WWI.
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Feb 15, 2021 19:11
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Not allegorical but certainly applicable to the average life of an Orc.
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Feb 15, 2021 19:37
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Arcsquad12 posted:All I want is to create the perfect genetic orc soldier! Not for power! Not for evil! But for good! I guess we've all got some growing up to do.
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Feb 15, 2021 20:16
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For I beheld Melkor as he fell from Aman like lightning! Sauron as Raul Julia's M Bison. Elendil and Isildur still refuse to accept his godhood.
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Feb 15, 2021 20:50
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http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Round_World_version_of_the_Silmarillion i didnt know about this actually i dont really like this "scientific" version of the world, i really like that there's this progress from a mythical into a realistic world in the original version i also wonder where valinor is supposed to fit into this world, is it america?
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Feb 15, 2021 21:05
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it also diminishes the akallabeth, it's cool that ar pharazon fucks up so badly he causes the entire world to change shape
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Feb 15, 2021 21:08
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Shibawanko posted:http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Round_World_version_of_the_Silmarillion i didnt know about this actually America is where Valinor was. After the Akallabêth, Aman is removed from the spherical earth and new lands made in its place. And yes. The round-world version is awful and I'm glad it never went anywhere.
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Feb 15, 2021 21:20
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I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that he Henry Darger'd himself to a standstill agonizing over the Catholicism of Orcs and never finished rationalizing the legendarium into a scientific treatise on how the Force is really midichlorians
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Feb 16, 2021 01:12
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Shibawanko posted:http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Round_World_version_of_the_Silmarillion i didnt know about this actually I'm finding it difficult to square this post with these statements you made earlier in the thread: Shibawanko posted:i dont like the idea of saving maglor because i dont think youre really supposed to read the silmarillion as a literal account of events. maglor is a mythical person and while the silmarillion says he should still be around playing his harp and weeping i don't think he could actually be found if someone were to go looking for him in the third age any more than we could go up olympus and expect to find gods there Shibawanko posted:it's an elven source that recounts their own history up to and before their own coming into existence, it must be mythical
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Feb 16, 2021 03:00
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A series of illustrations accompanying the unpublished epilogue of The Lord of the Rings.
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Feb 16, 2021 06:03
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Bongo Bill posted:A series of illustrations accompanying the unpublished epilogue of The Lord of the Rings. Thank you for posting that. I've never heard of it before, and reading it literally brought a tear to my eye.
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Feb 16, 2021 12:32
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Action George posted:Thank you for posting that. I've never heard of it before, and reading it literally brought a tear to my eye.
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Feb 16, 2021 15:16
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Bongo Bill posted:A series of illustrations accompanying the unpublished epilogue of The Lord of the Rings. Off-topic but is there a name for this drawing style which seems to be dominant on the Internet these days? I'm trying to think of which popular-with-adults kid's show originated it but I'm not having any luck.
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Feb 16, 2021 17:07
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Steven Universe maybe? There's a thru-line from Miyazaki-style anime to Gravity Falls to SU to like the Thundercats reboot, they all share a lot of traits
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Feb 16, 2021 17:14
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Pham Nuwen posted:Off-topic but is there a name for this drawing style which seems to be dominant on the Internet these days? I'm trying to think of which popular-with-adults kid's show originated it but I'm not having any luck. i dunno but i kind of hate it
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Feb 16, 2021 17:15
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In cartoons it is referred to as "Cal Arts Style" The comic is a little bit more detailed but that's probably because you don't have to worry about animating it. edit: Shows me to post before I wake up enough to notice typos Shiroc fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 17:46
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Cal* Arts style, not Cat Arts. California Institute of the Arts.
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Feb 16, 2021 18:10
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Also correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the CalArts "house style" considerably different 20 years ago? Like there was definitely a thing people referred to as "CalArts style", but it wasn't the picture above, it was more like the Dexter's Lab/Fairly OddParents/Powerpuff Girls/McCracken/Tartakovsky thing. All angles and squares and UPA-ish geometric stylization. And before that it was all stuff aping Disney Feature because that's what people went to CalArts to learn how to do.
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Feb 16, 2021 19:36
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Data Graham posted:Also correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the CalArts "house style" considerably different 20 years ago? Like there was definitely a thing people referred to as "CalArts style", but it wasn't the picture above, it was more like the Dexter's Lab/Fairly OddParents/Powerpuff Girls/McCracken/Tartakovsky thing. All angles and squares and UPA-ish geometric stylization. And before that it was all stuff aping Disney Feature because that's what people went to CalArts to learn how to do. Apart from curvy:angular there's not really any difference.
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Feb 16, 2021 19:59
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Anshu posted:I'm finding it difficult to square this post with these statements you made earlier in the thread: why? im saying the same thing in all posts: i prefer the nonrational or mythical version of the story over any version that tries to create a consistent or scientific world. the silmarillion strives to be like homer or virgil, blending myth with "real" events with no clear boundary between the two
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Feb 17, 2021 01:00
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Bongo Bill posted:A series of illustrations accompanying the unpublished epilogue of The Lord of the Rings. 
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Feb 17, 2021 01:37
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Shibawanko posted:why? im saying the same thing in all posts: i prefer the nonrational or mythical version of the story over any version that tries to create a consistent or scientific world. the silmarillion strives to be like homer or virgil, blending myth with "real" events with no clear boundary between the two Shibawanko posted:i dont like the idea of saving maglor because i dont think youre really supposed to read the silmarillion as a literal account of events. maglor is a mythical person and while the silmarillion says he should still be around playing his harp and weeping i don't think he could actually be found if someone were to go looking for him in the third age any more than we could go up olympus and expect to find gods there Shibawanko posted:it's an elven source that recounts their own history up to and before their own coming into existence, it must be mythical Shibawanko posted:http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Round_World_version_of_the_Silmarillion i didnt know about this actually
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Feb 17, 2021 02:23
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Can it really be mythical if the people who were there at the time are still around to recount the tales?
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Feb 17, 2021 02:29
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Arcsquad12 posted:Can it really be mythical if the people who were there at the time are still around to recount the tales? Shibawanko's position is "they're lying or just smiling smuggly and going 'i dunno, do YOU think it's true' if anyone asks."
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Feb 17, 2021 02:39
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reignonyourparade posted:Shibawanko's position is "they're lying or just smiling smuggly and going 'i dunno, do YOU think it's true' if anyone asks." No, that was euphronius and SHISHKABOB. Shibawanko had already chickened out of the debate before we reached that point last time.
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Feb 17, 2021 06:27
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Anshu posted:Let me see if I can organize and articulate my thoughts clearly... mind that i'm talking more about the experience of the reader and the relationship between the silmarillion and the kind of literature it draws from than whether or not the events in the book are "true" (which isn't really an interesting question, it's a work of fiction, and we all know that valinor is real and we are going there after we die right?). tolkien was a medievalist so his influences are premodern literature, the silmarillion is written as a premodern historical account, my main point is that it's more similar to the bible or the iliad or petrarch than the more modern fiction that apes it like premodern historical writing there's an element of irrationality to it, the story gets more fantastical the closer you get to the gods, similar to how in the iliad you get a somewhat plausible description of what was probably a real war in one moment, and paris choosing aphrodite in the next. within the story, the elves inhabit a premodern universe, while the "dominion of man" at the end of lotr is something like modernity. there's a particular scene at the end of lotr where (i think) aragorn and one of the hobbits climbs up the mountain behind minas tirith and sort of surveys the land, looking at it rationally and with modern, scientific eyes instead of the narrative perspective that the characters had up to that point: the world is losing all magical elements with the destruction of the ring and the elves going to valinor. this is also why ar pharazon sailing to aman was such a big deal, it's analogous to someone in ancient greece climbing olympus to check whether zeus is literally, physically sitting there i didn't really say that the elves don't believe in their myths, i'm saying that they don't really obey the rules of a scientific universe like men do. for elrond or cirdan or something all of the stuff in beleriand really happened, but they themselves have an ambiguous status, i think there's another scene around the council of elrond where frodo says of either glorfindel or elrond that he's like a character from history come to life, they're as it were half real half mythical quote:Are you advancing the notion that things can be true and not-true simultaneously? yeah. the silmarillion is not a closed ontology, there's no "just so" narrator who says that things are what they are and asks you to suspend disbelief that way, which is imo the main thing that differentiates it from "fantasy". this is why i enjoy reading it
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Feb 17, 2021 09:08
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when we call things "genre fiction" the main part of that accusation is that genre fiction isn't in any kind of dialogue with other works (being trapped only in its own genre), having read other works doesn't add anything to your enjoyment of "a song of ice and fire" because while it has this contrivance of being a "realistic" medieval world with people cutting eachothers heads off it's ultimately a just-so story where the author decided what is real and what isn't, things just happen because the author liked them that way and there's almost no structure to the story, it's a series of "and then this happened, and then that happened, and then that happened" like a kid making up a story on the playground i like tolkien because his books aren't like that, they're literary works which means that ambiguity is welcomed and narrative authority is suspended. tolkien is to fantasy what lem is to science fiction
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Feb 17, 2021 09:42
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Anshu posted:No, that was euphronius and SHISHKABOB. Shibawanko had already chickened out of the debate before we reached that point last time. Did I say that? I forget. SHISHKABOB posted:I think it's ok for the story to be ambiguous about its mythic status. Oh I said this. SHISHKABOB fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 10:11
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Anshu posted:No, that was euphronius and SHISHKABOB. Shibawanko had already chickened out of the debate before we reached that point last time. Yeah I said it’s obviously not true. The earth was always round and there has always been a sun. Well for the last 4.5 billion years or so
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Feb 17, 2021 13:35
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