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So the thing this mythology argument gets wrong is that it treats the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings as 'history," when in fact (in universe) they are heavily redacted texts, self admittedly worked on by multiple authors, detailing a war that ended the mythic period, as well as a journey to the edge of the known world and back. They're the Iliad and the Odyssey of the Legendarium! They are part of the mythology. No one in any hypothetical world in which these books took the Iliad and the Odyssey's place in our historical and mythological consciousness would give these books any more credit for historical accuracy than the Iliad and Odyssey actually get today. There's even scenes in Gondor and Rohan where they list the generals and all their men, just like the catalogue of ships, from the Iliad. So the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta and all the stuff pre first age, that is all the creation mythology. Chronos killing his dad and eating his kids, Zeus killing Chronos, that sort of stuff. Then you get all the early human society myths like Persephone or Pandora, and some of the early hero myths like Heracles, and those are the first age. And the later hero myths like Jason are the second age. But the LOTR and the Hobbit represent the only full text of this mythology to come down to us, and they only cover the last part of the mythology. So the answer to whether all that mythological stuff happened in universe is yes. Of course it did. And this is also why Tolkien's desire to make a demythologized version of the story was so fundamentally misguided.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:21
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the round earth Myths Transformed stuff isn't supposed to be a demythologizing or euhemeristic project. it's a mythic universe based on 20th century AD perception of the solar system instead of 20th century BC perception where everything up there is on a sacred canopy and the world is flat because why wouldn't it be. everything is still mythic, the devil tried to rape the sun one time, but the point (such as it is) is that you can see the privileged "modern" knowledge of reality that elves had and stroke your beard wisely about it. basically its a sci-fi myth inspired by CS Lewis' space books.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:37
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I had no idea what Myths Transformed was and I just looked it up. That’s interesting that Tolkien had similar thoughts to me.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:02
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To be honest I have never cared for the idea of middle earth being our earth. It's a nice idea, and I understand Tolkien's desire to replace the myths lost to time surrounding the english people. However. It just feels off to make such detailed maps that have a passing resemblance to europe and africa but no mechanism to explain how literally everything changed between the 4th age and now. It's too detailed, too realized and too consistent to hold together for me. The moments where the origins of the sun and moon are clearly set up to echo other mythological stories end up contrasting with the consistent world building in a way that ends up bothering me if I dwell on it too long. I end up going down the rabbit hole of what the gently caress happened to Mordor, to the Misty and Blue Mountains, etc etc. Were these events millions of years ago or are all the maps intentionally wrong? It just sits better for me to treat it as another world and not worry about things like Earandil becoming a star. I feel better calling that a myth within the narrative than having it be a myth within another myth to replace myths lost. It's tough to explain exactly I guess.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:25
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Just think of Middle Earth existing between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the coming of the Sons of Aryas.
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Feb 17, 2021 17:19
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Arcsquad12 posted:Just think of Middle Earth existing between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the coming of the Sons of Aryas.
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Feb 17, 2021 17:23
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Arcsquad12 posted:Just think of Middle Earth existing between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the coming of the Sons of Aryas. Well, actually the other way round.
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Feb 17, 2021 17:40
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It goes Lovecraft Ancient Aliens stuff-> Conan the Barbarian Hyborian Age-> Lord of the Rings.
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Feb 17, 2021 17:46
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Hyborian age is the fourth age. All men, no elves.
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Feb 17, 2021 18:15
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Hyborian age is the fourth age. All men, no elves. Sounds hot
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Feb 17, 2021 18:46
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Blood Boils posted:Sounds hot It is. Mighty thews abound
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Feb 17, 2021 19:00
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Make your choice, it's either mighty thews or fair brows
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Feb 17, 2021 19:22
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Tree Bucket posted:Make your choice, it's either mighty thews or fair brows Get Eddison in here and we can add curled moustachios to the ideal male body
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Feb 17, 2021 19:38
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basically i just see tolkien as an imperfect and initially amateur writer who was also a genius so there are a ton of awesome ideas that all got crammed together so some of them just don't quite fit, but none of those really matter since the most important stuff is excellent.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Hyborian age is the fourth age. All men, no elves. That tracks. It would be after the fall of Numenor/Atlantis
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Feb 17, 2021 20:06
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WoodrowSkillson posted:basically i just see tolkien as an imperfect and initially amateur writer who was also a genius so there are a ton of awesome ideas that all got crammed together so some of them just don't quite fit, but none of those really matter since the most important stuff is excellent. It's taken me all my life to realize that only someone who is a certifiable genius in his field falling bass-ackwards into being a fantasy author could get away with the approach of "just start writing and see where it takes you". If you told a brand-new budding author that you don't have to plan out all your story beats from beginning to ending, complete with foreshadowing and callbacks and character development arcs and everything, that you can just throw some characters down in a situation and see what happens, you'd be doing them a huge disservice and probably trick them into spinning their wheels unproductively for years. Data Graham fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 20:16
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I’m not an author but I don’t think slavish consistency to fictional facts is something they should aim for
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Feb 17, 2021 20:18
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skasion posted:Get Eddison in here and we can add curled moustachios to the ideal male body I think you mean horns.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:19
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euphronius posted:I’m not an author but I don’t think slavish consistency to fictional facts is something they should aim for yeah
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Feb 17, 2021 20:22
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Zopotantor posted:I think you mean horns. I always forget about the horns because Eddison also forgot about them sometime between chapter 1 and the rest of the book
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Feb 17, 2021 20:25
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euphronius posted:I’m not an author but I don’t think slavish consistency to fictional facts is something they should aim for i'm not asking for it, what i was trying to elucidate is that for me the already near slavish consistency of many of the facts surrounding his legendarium leads to a feeling, for me, that the whole mythology concept seems off. Kind of that its too well realized and detailed to then fit with the idea that all of it disappeared to then lead to The Angles in 200BC or whatever. With the myths from our real history, those blend in so well since they were created for people of the bronze age and classical periods. Hercules does not wield a steel sword and Perseus' journeys don't take him to lands that are then suddenly geographically changed. Its hard for me not to wonder how the gently caress the hopeful end of the third age into the fourth then leads to such a decline that the remaining descendants of the gondorians or the rohirrim forgot everything like ironworking and shipbuilding. Like its outright stated the dwarves are not going anywhere any time soon, the only difference in middle earth post-Sauron would be less Elves, who were barely present by that point anyway, and the elves under thranduil would probably not be taking the ships to valinor any time soon. So what the hell happened between then and when real history begins? Another war involving the Valar that reshapes the world again? where did the Dwarves go? The hobbits?
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Feb 17, 2021 20:38
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Dwarves and hobbits and even elves are still here if you can find them !! 4th age would transition to modern folklore where faeries (elves) live hidden in the woods and are seldom seen but if you do you’ll be enchanted and maybe die
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Feb 17, 2021 20:40
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Blood Boils posted:Sounds hot Super hot  https://images.app.goo.gl/VynapJhb6rXXZiHJA https://images.app.goo.gl/qNWN1vo434orTrFo6
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Feb 17, 2021 20:43
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WoodrowSkillson posted:i'm not asking for it, what i was trying to elucidate is that for me the already near slavish consistency of many of the facts surrounding his legendarium leads to a feeling, for me, that the whole mythology concept seems off. Kind of that its too well realized and detailed to then fit with the idea that all of it disappeared to then lead to The Angles in 200BC or whatever. With the myths from our real history, those blend in so well since they were created for people of the bronze age and classical periods. Hercules does not wield a steel sword and Perseus' journeys don't take him to lands that are then suddenly geographically changed. the dwarves dug too deep and the hobbits evolved into brythunians
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Feb 17, 2021 20:43
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Sometime after the fourth age the Valar decide to put Middle-Earth on the inside of the planet. They call it... Pellucidar.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:45
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Yes i know the hints the and such in the books, especially in the early LOTR when the asides like that occur more often, like the talking fox. It mentions the wood elves diminishing until they are barely recognizable and such. I'm not ignorant of the explanations given, I'm saying they don't sit right with me and just lead to more questions than answers. I also am just musing about this after the above conversation cause its not like I'm going to go bother someone IRL with this haha
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Feb 17, 2021 20:45
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I'm probably overlooking a lot of obvious examples but it seems like the trope in fantasy of "an Earth-like world, which is actually our world in the distant past or distant future" almost always has an unrecognizable map. Like even where it's explicitly meant to be our world, like Terry Brooks or even Wheel of Time which literally has a Mercedes-Benz hood ornament as an ancient talisman of greed, the world has been churned about to the point where you can't draw a line either physically or archeologically from here to there. It seems like there's a lot of possibility in a fantasy world that takes place on a map that the narrative reveals in gradual detail to be precisely our own familiar Earth, just with all the names changed.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:45
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In retrospect, the discovery of plate tectonics was convenient for a lot of early fantasy authors
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Feb 17, 2021 20:48
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If you consider at the last glacial maximum the coast lines were radically different it’s not too much hand waving
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Feb 17, 2021 20:50
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SHISHKABOB posted:Sometime after the fourth age the Valar decide to put Middle-Earth on the inside of the planet. They call it... Pellucidar. At least it isn't the anti-earth you know as Gor
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Feb 17, 2021 20:51
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Its hard for me not to wonder how the gently caress the hopeful end of the third age into the fourth then leads to such a decline that the remaining descendants of the gondorians or the rohirrim forgot everything like ironworking and shipbuilding. Like its outright stated the dwarves are not going anywhere any time soon, the only difference in middle earth post-Sauron would be less Elves, who were barely present by that point anyway, and the elves under thranduil would probably not be taking the ships to valinor any time soon. So what the hell happened between then and when real history begins? Another war involving the Valar that reshapes the world again? where did the Dwarves go? The hobbits? I assume hobbits eventually became Englishmen, and potentially in time, Boris Johnson.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:51
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Data Graham posted:I'm probably overlooking a lot of obvious examples but it seems like the trope in fantasy of "an Earth-like world, which is actually our world in the distant past or distant future" almost always has an unrecognizable map. Like even where it's explicitly meant to be our world, like Terry Brooks or even Wheel of Time which literally has a Mercedes-Benz hood ornament as an ancient talisman of greed, the world has been churned about to the point where you can't draw a line either physically or archeologically from here to there. https://images.app.goo.gl/cQxf8YWMVFS8QvfC7
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Feb 17, 2021 20:52
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Data Graham posted:I'm probably overlooking a lot of obvious examples but it seems like the trope in fantasy of "an Earth-like world, which is actually our world in the distant past or distant future" almost always has an unrecognizable map. Like even where it's explicitly meant to be our world, like Terry Brooks or even Wheel of Time which literally has a Mercedes-Benz hood ornament as an ancient talisman of greed, the world has been churned about to the point where you can't draw a line either physically or archeologically from here to there. I actually prefer this form of setting a fantasy in the "real" world than making it be in some indeterminate past. Especially after the development of nukes the concept of us blasting ourselves to indeterminable millennia of stone age society again is not implausible. Add in some gods that might churn the world around enough for all the depleted iron mines and whatnot to not be a problem and you're set. Nessus posted:I think the Dwarves eventually all huddle up in Moria and then pass out of history, presumably dying out but in that CS Lewis friendly, "It's sad, but that's just the way it is" kind of way where nobody did it, they just ran out of folks. They don't die out. They are involved in the Dagor Dagorath, and their own belief is they will assist the Vala in rebuilding the world after second music. WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 20:53
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Lol. Though this is a really interesting thought experiment, I'm wondering if someone wrote a LotR-esque fantasy tale but just painstakingly described the setting as traversing Literally Europe, with the Alps and the Black Forest and the English Channel and so on — would those natural features work just as well with the story as-is, or would they feel "wrong" or "non-fantasy" somehow? Like the scale would be off, or the transition from one kind of terrain to another is too abrupt or too gradual, or features like seas or rivers or chasms seem just too contrived to be "realistic"?
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Feb 17, 2021 20:56
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Shibawanko posted:mind that i'm talking more about the experience of the reader and the relationship between the silmarillion and the kind of literature it draws from than whether or not the events in the book are "true" (which isn't really an interesting question, it's a work of fiction, and we all know that valinor is real and we are going there after we die right?). tolkien was a medievalist so his influences are premodern literature, the silmarillion is written as a premodern historical account, my main point is that it's more similar to the bible or the iliad or petrarch than the more modern fiction that apes it I understand all of these words, but I don't understand how it could be someone's primary type of engagement with the text. Shibawanko posted:yeah. the silmarillion is not a closed ontology, there's no "just so" narrator who says that things are what they are and asks you to suspend disbelief that way, which is imo the main thing that differentiates it from "fantasy". this is why i enjoy reading it Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin posted:Now Fingolfin, King of the North, and High King of the Noldor, seeing that his people were become numerous and strong, and that the Men allied to them were many and valiant, pondered once more an assault upon Angband; for he knew that they lived in danger while the circle of the siege was incomplete, and Morgoth was free to labour in his deep mines, devising what evils none could foretell ere he should reveal them. This counsel was wise according to the measure of his knowledge; for the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed. Shibawanko posted:when we call things "genre fiction" the main part of that accusation is that genre fiction isn't in any kind of dialogue with other works (being trapped only in its own genre), having read other works doesn't add anything to your enjoyment of "a song of ice and fire" because while it has this contrivance of being a "realistic" medieval world with people cutting eachothers heads off it's ultimately a just-so story where the author decided what is real and what isn't, things just happen because the author liked them that way and there's almost no structure to the story, it's a series of "and then this happened, and then that happened, and then that happened" like a kid making up a story on the playground
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Feb 17, 2021 21:06
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Data Graham posted:Lol. Though this is a really interesting thought experiment, I'm wondering if someone wrote a LotR-esque fantasy tale but just painstakingly described the setting as traversing Literally Europe, with the Alps and the Black Forest and the English Channel and so on — would those natural features work just as well with the story as-is, or would they feel "wrong" or "non-fantasy" somehow? Like the scale would be off, or the transition from one kind of terrain to another is too abrupt or too gradual, or features like seas or rivers or chasms seem just too contrived to be "realistic"? I don't see why they would - there's plenty of post-apocalypse/alien invasion/etc novels that do exactly that. The first ones I thought of are both by John Christopher - the Tripods trilogy is centuries-post-alien-invasion with 3 boys fleeing from England across France to the rebel strongholds in Swiss tunnels, and the Prince in Waiting trilogy is set in centuries-post-nuclear-war Winchester with travel to Stonehenge and Wales (over a lava field, which I admit is not a current feature of the trip).
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Feb 17, 2021 21:07
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SHISHKABOB posted:Did I say that? I forget. Yes you did, in direct response to me asking if Galadriel would be lying about the First Age:  Which in context pretty clearly implies reignonyourparade posted:"they're lying or just smiling smuggly and going 'i dunno, do YOU think it's true' if anyone asks."
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Feb 17, 2021 21:11
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The English Channel is like not as old as the Sumerians More or less
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Feb 17, 2021 21:14
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Data Graham posted:It seems like there's a lot of possibility in a fantasy world that takes place on a map that the narrative reveals in gradual detail to be precisely our own familiar Earth, just with all the names changed. There's a David Weber series that plays with this, where naturally occurring portals link alternate Earths to one another, all with the same gross geology, but nearly all of them have no human inhabitants. The plot kicks off when two human civilizations exploring the portal networks stumble across each other on the frontier and end up in a shooting war.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:16
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euphronius posted:The English Channel is like not as old as the Sumerians coastlines are not the problem really, as you just demonstrated, those are far more fluid. It's more stuff like where the Blue, Misty, Iron, Ash, and Shadow mountains go. The white mountains seem to be the Alps and bay of belfalas might be the Mediterranean, but that leaves some of the biggest mountains in middle earth about where Germany is.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:18
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