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81sidewinder posted:Can't agree here. This thread still has a ton to offer for everyone who works for a living, and often goes beyond the small scope of negotiating that contains the discussion salary and benefits. This is what's important and relevant to line level service sector jobs. Negotiation itself isn't. For managers it's relevant though. Making an extra few k is also a big loving deal when you only make 30k, so small wins are proportionally more important.
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Feb 18, 2021 20:30
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Historically the solution was collective bargaining. Verging into political chat but it's true.
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Feb 18, 2021 20:32
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Yeah to be clear I'm talking about bottom level wage slave jobs, not management. Although actually even at the Store Manager level there's not much room for negotiation in most companies, they usually have a pretty rigid comp structure that strongly incentivizes you to work your staff to death and cut costs to the bone to get your bonuses. Once you're into district manager and above then you're in the white collar corporate world, pretty much.
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Feb 18, 2021 20:33
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah to be clear I'm talking about bottom level wage slave jobs, not management. Although actually even at the Store Manager level there's not much room for negotiation in most companies, they usually have a pretty rigid comp structure that strongly incentivizes you to work your staff to death and cut costs to the bone to get your bonuses. Yeah there’s not a lot of room... but there’s some room. And at the lower levels of pay some room is meaningful. Making an extra buck an hour as a floor manager in retail is potentially a big deal when you’re that close to the line.
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Feb 18, 2021 20:52
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There's also intra-level negotiating when you're trying to trade shifts with a coworker.
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Feb 18, 2021 21:46
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Eric the Mauve posted:Have you ever actually worked in that sector? If you're lucky you might be able to get yourself $10 an hour instead of $9.50. That's about it. If you have personal knowledge of any negotiation success story more meaningful than that, please share. I remember working at a store a long time ago and asking for a raise from $7.50 to $7.75 because my coworker had started before me at that rate and I was being paid less, and being told no. And then I went back to work because I knew I could be replaced in a day or two if I quit Been thinking about this post since yesterday, not sure I have anything to say here, except that it sucks to be easily replaced and working two jobs to pay rent and keep the heat on, let alone develop savings
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Feb 18, 2021 22:14
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Eric the Mauve posted:Have you ever actually worked in that sector? If you're lucky you might be able to get yourself $10 an hour instead of $9.50. That's about it. If you have personal knowledge of any negotiation success story more meaningful than that, please share. I worked jobs like this as a teen and in college, but never to fully support myself. The '$9.50 vs $10' really doesn't jive with what I see where I live. Maybe my market is an outlier, but within a few miles of my home I see starting wages at Walmart advertised at 9/hour and target for 13/hour. Chick fil A advertises 12.50 and Hardees advertises 10. All of these are big swings financially. Also, with a minimum wage increase being discussed, different companies are going to try and get ahead of that more than others. You're absolutely right that negotiating a wage, benefits, time off, etc. at a particular store really isn't feasible. But, again, I think the advice in this thread has grown beyond that scope through the years.
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Feb 18, 2021 23:16
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my batna is "homelessness". trust me, i'm cognizant of it
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Feb 18, 2021 23:54
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:on the contrary flying in and out of chicago sucks mega rear end but it's probably not worse than NY Lived in both. It is definitely way better in Chicago than NYC. Were you always leaving/coming through O'Hare?
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Feb 19, 2021 00:09
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RE: wage slavery, if you are in retail or food service and looking to get out, one way to do it is to go to work for a bank or credit union as a teller or call center jockey. It's not going to pay that much more (and in the case of some food service jobs, may actually pay less), but many teller/phone teller jobs come with benefits at a base level (insurance and paid time off, yo), and especially at smaller institutions, there can be opportunity to move to non-customer facing roles, which lets you get the true white-collar experience to parley into other jobs. It also has the advantage that your retail/food service experience is relevant, and if you're posting on this forum, your computer skills are probably significantly better than their average applicant's. I have a few friends who have done this, so, y'know, anecdotal (my old roommate just moved into a salaried analyst position via this path from working food service five years ago), but it seems relatively solid; as solid as any other path out I've heard of, especially if you don't have a college degree.
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Feb 19, 2021 02:12
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And if that doesn't work, try a temp agency. They'll usually make you grind out a couple months doing banquets and food service poo poo but eventually once they trust you, will give you some assignments as office temp work that ought to eventually become temp to hire. I tempted in a literal mail (and fax) room for a year before they brought me onboard full time I have some friends who started off as secretaries answering phones before being given more responsibility in the back office... Once they hit 23 Good luck getting a white collar entry level job before 22 though. Anyone under 23 without a formal degree, at least where I grew up, is merely sausage for the retail/food service meat grinder, as far as society is concerned That said we just hired a new kid out of school and he's doing weird stuff like leaving meetings early to go to lunch and recording the meeting without telling anyone, so maybe there's something to the age 22 thing Hadlock fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 02:57
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Chaotic Flame posted:Lived in both. It is definitely way better in Chicago than NYC. Were you always leaving/coming through O'Hare? yes because gently caress WN
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Feb 19, 2021 19:15
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:I scheduled a second round interview for a job, but I thought it over and I don't think I want it after all. As desperate as I am to leave my current position, the "budgeted" pay is about 50-60% of the other two jobs I interviewed for last week, making it a lateral move in both pay and responsibility. Is it worth trying to negotiate for a bigger, thicker, better paid position, or should I just tell them sorry, nevermind?
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Feb 19, 2021 20:05
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Yeah, it's what it is. "Sorry, I am very interested but this salary is not workable for me. I would need $(minimum acceptable plus 15%) to make this move, can you meet me on that?" No -> "OK, thanks for your time and best wishes in the future." If they're going through three interviews and a test only to firmly lowball candidates, they would probably be even worse than your current company to work for.
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Feb 19, 2021 20:24
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I just learned of this thread yesterday, and I've been to busy to read more than first and last pages. So sorry about asking stuff that's been answered a bunch before. My situation is this: first of, I'm in Denmark. Strong public sector, very clear collective bargaining within the public sector. There is essentially a pretty decent minimum comp, plus room for negotiation, which can be high in certain positions. I'm currently employed in a public agency at the lowest level plus a small bit extra. Very common and quite acceptable, but also essentially the lowest they could possibly get away with (sound strange? Try collective bargaining). Now, this particular position sucks balls because management is ...not good. I am slowly getting back from sick leave due to very predictable and fixable bad conditions, and nothing has changed. I am in information security (not technical but organisational), a field with too few qualified candidates. I am great at my job, but I don't have much paper to prove it, despite being mentored by a well known and respected former coworker. I've been in the business around 3 years now, unfortunately with three different places of employment, all public agencies. Getting to the point: tomorrow, I am going to have coffee with the CEO of a small company specialising in information security. And by coffee I'm pretty sure we're talking serious offer of employment. They have a pretty good piece of software that I have a lot of experience in, and then they do consulting work. Presumably I will be doing consulting work. I know the CEO from my previous employment, and he seems to have been impressed by my abilities (and I said nice things about his software). Essentially, I want to work for this guy, he's pretty sensible, but I also kind of want more money because I'm honestly worth it. My current salary is roughly DKK 35000, which he can basically look up on loenoverblik.dk - but my realistic BATNA would be waiting around (very doable) and getting a better position in a different agency. This should also be fairly obvious to the guy, and honestly I'll probably mention it to him in the negotiation. I don't have any real realistic goal, but I'm hoping to settle for more than 40000, which seems pretty substantial. In terms of alternative comp, I'm pretty firm on 37 hours and 6 weeks paid vacation, paid sick leave including first day off when my kid is sick and essentially a bunch of good stuff that strong unions have provided. That's completely standard in public agencies and common outside as well. I guess my question is: how do I approach this casual kind of negotiation, where I'm gonna be pretty easy to read? My thought is also that a public sector job is gonna be more cozy, so he's gonna have to pay me meaningfully more than I could get even after two years of experience as a consultant, because I would honestly be tempted. That is also something I expect to be upfront about. I basically welcome any thoughts, and just writing this out is honestly pretty helpful.
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Feb 21, 2021 20:16
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15% isn't that substantial when 10% is a pretty common number to get someone that likes their job to even consider moving. If you like your job and have other options I'd shoot for higher.
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Feb 21, 2021 21:02
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BonHair posted:I just learned of this thread yesterday, and I've been to busy to read more than first and last pages. So sorry about asking stuff that's been answered a bunch before. I’ve been in a situation like this in the past a few times. By the sound of it you’re a SME with regards to his core business. This means he’ll be likely to get a nice rate straight out of the gate when you start working for him with no ot only a small ramp up period. This is pretty important for small companies. InfoSec is firld with scarce resources, finding someone that fits the needs of a niche (and is willing to switch jobs) is going to be rven more difficult. Assuming you interview well, he’ll likely ask you to join. As per thread advice, don’t say a number. In my experience I’ve dealt with 2 types of people in this situation. The people who value your knowledge/skills and try to apropriately compensate you and the penny pinchers. If the guy throws out lowball numbers during your conversation you’re probably be dealing with the latter. I had it happen once, after the CEO of a small consultancy company asked me to come over to discuss if I wanted to work for them. In the second interview the hiring manager said they wouldn’t be able to offer more than X, which was 10% less than I was making in public sector. I told them that I’d be losing salary if I’d accept that number and they downtalked my resume as a reason why it wouldn’t be profitable for them to pay me more. I reminded them I was perfectly happy with my job and only came to talk to them because their CEO asked me to come interview with them. I told them I wouldn’t be entertaining any offers and thanked them for their time. I had 2 other interviews in the same niche market, direct competitors of eachother (which I also told all 3 companies). After walking out I got 7 or 8 calls from their CEO in the next week as well as 3 calls from their COO (whom I worked with on a project before and who apparently recommended me to the CEO). Suddenly my resume wasn’t poo poo anymore and salary could easily be increased by 15-20%. I declined politely but their behaviour was such a red flag I couldn’t imagine what they’d do to employees if this was their best behaviour trying to get a potential employee to start working for them. Be prepared to walk away, don’t make yourself think this is your 1 shot to glory. There will be more opportunities so if this doesn’t feel right, pass on the offer. That said, there also companies that realize your value and make you a decent offer. Make sure you do market research on your position/experience salary because if you like this job and you want to stay there for a long time, this is likely your only good chance at negotiating. Taking 1000DKK less now, means you’ll be losing a multitude of it over the years. Whatever you do, don’t name a number. Deflect saying you’d need to review the whole package and you’ll get back to them. If he does pressure you, name a number substantially higher than the 40k you are aiming for (48-50k is probably what I’d do based on the numbers you gave). Keep in mind consultancy can be very different from public sector though. Not sure what amount of travel is involved but adding a daily 1.5hr of commute can be pretty draining. Always evaluate the whole package.
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Feb 22, 2021 08:03
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Please make sure you completely understand the duties and requirements. Consulting is a very broad umbrella. Transitioning from a collectively bargained public sector job to a consulting could be quite jarring, depending on what that consulting looks like. Since you are the product, it's going to be challenging to adhere to a 37 hour workweek.
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Feb 22, 2021 13:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Please make sure you completely understand the duties and requirements. Consulting is a very broad umbrella. Transitioning from a collectively bargained public sector job to a consulting could be quite jarring, depending on what that consulting looks like. Since you are the product, it's going to be challenging to adhere to a 37 hour workweek. In the EU this might not be as big of a problem. Lots of Govnerment/Financial industries have sub 40 hour work weeks ib my country. I’ve had a 36 hour workweek for over a decade as a consultant. Some companies didn’t even allow contractors to be hired for 40 hours a week. The latter was a pain in the rear end for some contractors as their companies made them take a 10% paycut or ordered them to be in the office for the remaining 4 hours a week. Decent companies calculated this into their hourly rate and let it be.
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Feb 22, 2021 14:01
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Yeah, I'm aware it varies - but the big strat boys still work long hours in the EU.
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Feb 22, 2021 14:17
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Thanks for the advice! I'm fairly certain that expectations are quite different between the US and Denmark regarding work hours. Unless you're a super career person, 37-40 hours is absolutely the norm. I am very definitely gonna be clear that I might work overtime once in a while, but it won't be the norm. As for transportation, I live fairly centrally in Copenhagen, where most businesses are. It's Denmark, so the distances are a lot smaller. I honestly don't expect a problem, but I am going to ask about it. I know they have billing for transportation at least. It definitely seems like I was gonna lowball myself, also are talking to my union, so that's good to know. I'm gonna adjust accordingly and report back.
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Feb 22, 2021 14:26
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BonHair posted:Thanks for the advice! I'm fairly certain that expectations are quite different between the US and Denmark regarding work hours. Unless you're a super career person, 37-40 hours is absolutely the norm. I am very definitely gonna be clear that I might work overtime once in a while, but it won't be the norm. I'm also Danish. If you're OK with it, PM me your LinkedIn, and I'll give my two cents. TL;DR: You could probably close this at way more than 40k.
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Feb 22, 2021 15:05
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I've found myself in a somewhat similar position in the past, in a government position, so with known salary, and looking at private sector gigs. The information asymmetry is starker when they know your current salary and you don't know your budget, which makes the typical goal of an offer at the maximum of their budget harder, because they already know your BATNA. I can't say it always works, but this makes it one of the exceptional situations where naming a number may work - if there's a figure you know you would be truly (if subjectively) happy with (considering the benefits package, ofc), there's a case to be made for absolute frankness: "We all know what I'm making now, and what my advancement path would be within the public service. Even with me being in a good situation currently, I'm excited about the opportunity you're offering, and would sign an offer letter at [x]." If you anchor at a number that you really would accept, taking that is what the win is given the situation. EDIT: of course talk to other people, including the posters above, and get informed about what [x] should be first...
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Feb 22, 2021 15:06
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Trip report: we talked for 1.5 hours about my current job, my previous job, the company, my role, all sorts of very interesting stuff, and honestly it's a really good fit, especially since he wanted me to be part time consultant, part time product owner. He was very into letting me have a family, and we spent some time discussing this company versus traditional consultant companies, where they value engine persons and regular working hours, 65% billable time and so on. He did get me to say a number, despite me telling him I wouldn't, so I completely highballed it, which made him hesitate, but continue talking about my role. I feel like that's the best outcome given that I hosed up and said 50.000dkk (this time including pension, that and taxes means I completely lose track of what I get and what I want). All in all a very pleasant experience, but with very little talk of actual compensation. It was pretty clear that I can definitely get the job, which is nice, so now it's more about finding the right deal. I have the next meeting Wednesday, and they want me to quit my current job Friday, which could get a bit rushed if the details aren't immediately agreeable. Obviously I'm not quitting without an acceptable offer in writing. I'm gonna have my union look at whatever contract they send obviously, to make sure I'm not getting screwed.
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Feb 22, 2021 20:27
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Not naming a number against experienced negotiatora while your inexperienced yourself can be incredibly difficult. You tried and did the bext best thing (anchoring high). Next time you negotiate, it’ll be easier. That said, you can still negotiate as you don’t have an offer in hand. You can still tell them you want 50k DKK and pension/bonus/etc on top of it. You anwsered the question about what you want to make, that did not include the whole package. When you get informed about the whole package, you can value that, and still say you need 50k. Whatever you do, do NOT sign anything in that meeting. Some folks (mostly recruiters) try to get you to sign on the spot. Take it home, review it, talk it over with your SO/relatives/friends/SA neg thread and get back to them with a counter offer. Unless they match your “gently caress off number”, you take it and realize you won. And realize you might even anchor higher next time 
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Feb 22, 2021 21:03
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Hi Thread! I’ve got a story about negotiating. I like my current job, but I don’t like the city it is in. I figured I’d go looking for a job in a city I’ve lived in before and liked. I currently make $165k and have 32 days of vacation/pto/floating holidays and a completely rad boss who gives zero fucks about me taking 6 weeks off in a stretch. I’m scheduled to get into the local management thing they send future managers to and I’m in the process of filling two positions that will report to me. So my BATNA is pretty good. I landed an interview with a company in a city I’d be happy to move to and murdered the interview. The job is technically a promotion giving me official ‘management’ title. However, the job itself is not super thrilling. A friend of mine works in the industry and he works his contacts and finds the salary range for the position is $130k-$192k. He said that his company hires equivalent people at $155k. The initial offer comes in at $130k and 12 days PTO. The other benefits are similar enough that they aren’t worth considering. I counter with $170k and 22 days PTO. I thought long and hard about those numbers. I’ve had other offers in that salary range, so my current salary isn't a fluke. The prospective company noped out. Oh well. I guess I’ll have to learn to like this poo poo town. Or spend all my vacation somewhere else. E: Or settle for a massive pay and vacation cut.
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Feb 23, 2021 04:37
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$5K is not even close to losing 10 PTO days and a Rad boss imo. Bummer you don't like the city you are in but I think you dodged a bullet.
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Feb 23, 2021 04:46
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spwrozek posted:$5K is not even close to losing 10 PTO days and a Rad boss imo. Bummer you don't like the city you are in but I think you dodged a bullet. Yeah, on the surface the current job sounds like an all-around much better deal even if potential new job did come up to 170. Unless you just really hate where you're living (which could be true and valid) I don't think you lost out on anything here.
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Feb 23, 2021 05:02
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Yeah, I was not super thrilled with the offer but knew they wouldn't get anywhere close to 32 days. I've found that increased PTO is virtually impossible. I've given companies a choice between 5 more days PTO and $50k more and they always say 'more PTO is impossible, we'll see about the $50k'.
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Feb 23, 2021 05:28
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That’s okay, PTO is a dinosaur in the US. It’s becoming a liability more companies want off the books. Next will come “unlimited” PTO which means you just have to get triple secret probation approval for all PTO and it will certainly not be as much as you had before, AND with the added bonus of you never accrue and they don’t have to pay out unused PTO when they fire you or you quit. I have a month saved off and have had my past three PTO requests denied. So I just took sick time instead. gently caress HR sideways up the rear end. No offense to reasonable HR goons here.
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Feb 23, 2021 06:25
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None taken. I've worked with a lot of HR people and can say, anecdotally at least, a majority of them suck poo poo. I would advise you to find out the reasons for denial though - hr might just be on the processing side and it's your manager giving it the thumbs down.
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Feb 23, 2021 07:14
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Boot and Rally posted:I've given companies a choice between 5 more days PTO and $50k more and they always say 'more PTO is impossible, we'll see about the $50k'. Usa.txt I’d value a rad boss solidly in the low five figures though. I went from a hurry-up-and-wait micro managing scrum fetishist to a chill nerd with a PhD who’ll happily spend 45 minutes of a meeting talking about camera gear. It would take a SIGNIFICANT raise to put me back with the first one.
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Feb 23, 2021 07:44
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I recently had a corporate recruiter ask me for a salary expectation for a position I'm interested in. It was fun to point out to them that under the Colorado Equal Pay for Equal Work act, they need to provide ME with a range on for job posting. Let's see if my tactic of knowing state law backfires and they just trash my resume instead.
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Feb 23, 2021 09:03
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TheSpartacus posted:I recently had a corporate recruiter ask me for a salary expectation for a position I'm interested in. It was fun to point out to them that under the Colorado Equal Pay for Equal Work act, they need to provide ME with a range on for job posting. Let's see if my tactic of knowing state law backfires and they just trash my resume instead. In my experience with MA law, it usually just makes them shut up about it. Which is half the goal for me anyway. They absolutely still ask even though the locals probably know they shouldn't. Not like I'm going to sue. MGL c. 149, §§105A-105D Equal pay. Employers may not ask about wage or salary history until after an offer of employment with compensation has been made.
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Feb 23, 2021 12:01
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Parallelwoody posted:None taken. I've worked with a lot of HR people and can say, anecdotally at least, a majority of them suck poo poo. I would advise you to find out the reasons for denial though - hr might just be on the processing side and it's your manager giving it the thumbs down. Continuing on this: if anyone feels like they want to gaze into the abyss try poking around the HR realms on LinkedIn. Every thread will be 99 HR peeps all validating each other on their sociopathy with a single person at the bottom going, "uhhhh guys this is hosed up"
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Feb 23, 2021 14:42
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For the very few people with ambition and intelligence who somehow find themselves working in HR, almost all of them end up either climbing into executive HR-dom or transitioning out of HR and into roles that actually add value, sooner or later.
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Feb 23, 2021 14:55
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Guinness posted:Yeah, on the surface the current job sounds like an all-around much better deal even if potential new job did come up to 170.
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Feb 23, 2021 15:03
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Ultimate Mango posted:That’s okay, PTO is a dinosaur in the US. It’s becoming a liability more companies want off the books. Next will come “unlimited” PTO which means you just have to get triple secret probation approval for all PTO and it will certainly not be as much as you had before, AND with the added bonus of you never accrue and they don’t have to pay out unused PTO when they fire you or you quit. I am not sure I agree with this. Although I have seen sick time go the away at many places for just PTO so maybe you are right. I guess I am glad I have never worked at a lovely place the denies PTO (that just is some hosed up poo poo). I just went back and looked and I am coming up with only 5 states that required PTO payout when you leave. The vast majority leave it up to the company policy. We are also seeing more PTO being offered by our consultants as well. maybe that will slow down, we will see. TheSpartacus posted:I recently had a corporate recruiter ask me for a salary expectation for a position I'm interested in. It was fun to point out to them that under the Colorado Equal Pay for Equal Work act, they need to provide ME with a range on for job posting. Let's see if my tactic of knowing state law backfires and they just trash my resume instead. This is funny but I also can see this not communicated very well outside of HR proper. The law went into effect Jan 1.
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Feb 23, 2021 16:13
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On the (unlikely, but not impossible) off-chance that someone asks me what my rate would be to do contract work, I'd like to have a number handy to throw around. What's tripping me up, I think, is not having a good feel for what the contracting overhead is (e.g. paying both sides' share of stuff like healthcare and payroll taxes). I know the rule of thumb is to take your salary and double it, but does that still hold in the upper echelons? For reference, I was L5 on the Google ladder, and I'm confident I could have handled L6 if there were opportunities available. As an extremely crude rule of thumb, if I wanted to have a pre-tax/expenses income of $300k while working 4 days per week (effectively giving me ~52 days PTO per year), that would suggest charging (300000/(365*8*4/7)) = $180/hour. Does that make a lick of sense?
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Feb 23, 2021 16:31
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spwrozek posted:This is funny but I also can see this not communicated very well outside of HR proper. The law went into effect Jan 1. It doesn't help the recruiter is from out of state. I just gently reminded them that to be able to answer their question fully, I needed to be informed of their expected pay range. The funny part is that this law captures ALL remote jobs in the US, as they can reasonably be done from Colorado.
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Feb 23, 2021 16:34
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