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well i guess if you want to want to ignore the message that if you harm people by lashing out in grief, it's okay because well, you feel grief, so that harm doesn't matter. it's not just that she didn't volunteer, but also that they let her walk away. monica isn't even like, come on, i get it, and what sword was doing to vision, it was wrong, but let's get you some real help. she's just like, hey my mom died too, so all this, it's whatever no biggie.
site fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 20:15
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Wanda's story appears to me to be an ongoing way of processing grief. Accepting what you can't change. Fighting for what you can. Moving forward. That she ended the show without a final and decisive catharsis when she is slated for more appearances sounds normal to me. She tried Denial. That wasn't the way forward. Now she's going to try unlimited chaos magic from the book of the damned. We'll see how that goes. If the message of the show is that grief is a long and painful process with ups and downs, I think they did a good job delivering it. BrianWilly posted:...And besides, "lol u nerds fell for our troll" is not a very cash money kinda vibe for showrunners to have. Like this makes me feel so bad for anyone trying to deliver a standard TV show in the modern age. Nobody is laughing at you or calling you a nerd. It was a nod toward the Fox films. A sight gag. That's totally fine.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:19
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SonicRulez posted:Wanda's story appears to me to be an ongoing way of processing grief. Accepting what you can't change. Fighting for what you can. Moving forward. That she ended the show without a final and decisive catharsis when she is slated for more appearances sounds normal to me. She tried Denial. That wasn't the way forward. Now she's going to try unlimited chaos magic from the book of the damned. We'll see how that goes. See after the finale I can't agree with this because processing grief has to come with (to my mind, and from what therapists have tried to beat into me in the past) at least the attempted discussion of how to do so in a healthy way. WandaVision is about wallowing in it and the closest it comes is pointing out that what she is doing is bad (repeatedly) but no one ever tries to talk to her about how to actually process it to move forward. Just saying you can't have a fictional family in a mind controlled town is half assing the message. imo
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Mar 6, 2021 20:30
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The real moral of the story seems to be if you don't allow drone strikes, the bad guy runs off with a nuke to learn how to use it.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:45
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So Wanda just ripped off the whole Dark Willow plot from Buffy.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:48
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Retro Futurist posted:Wanda goes into self imposed exile to heal and study so she can better control her powers, I don't know what a better solution would be here. Sticking her down a hole isn't going to work, there isn't really a therapy built for this, and just magicking everyone into forgetting would be a cop out. The resolution isn't great but it's probably the best there could be. Yeah it’s a shame that the writers of Wandavision’s hands were tied by the writers of Wandavision.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:04
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You are all missing my initial point that almost no one can make you go to jail if you have superpowers, and that is dope as hell, because going to jail sucks
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Mar 6, 2021 21:41
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 I understand how a discussion of WandaVision can naturally lead to a discussion about prison abolition (I'm not being snippy, I say this in earnest) but please be civil about it. We're only talking about comic book prison here. And once the discussion moves beyond comic book prison it's probably better to find a D&D thread about it and post there.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:54
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site posted:See after the finale I can't agree with this because processing grief has to come with (to my mind, and from what therapists have tried to beat into me in the past) at least the attempted discussion of how to do so in a healthy way. WandaVision is about wallowing in it and the closest it comes is pointing out that what she is doing is bad (repeatedly) but no one ever tries to talk to her about how to actually process it to move forward. Just saying you can't have a fictional family in a mind controlled town is half assing the message. imo This is pretty much how I saw the entire 8th episode, where her therapist Agatha takes her beat by beat through the painful moments she wasn't willing to process and makes her confront them in order to manipulate her into, basically, taking accountability for her current and past thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and actions. (I mean ideally sure your therapist isn't also a centuries old evil witch who is only trying to help you so they can groom you into a magic battery for their own benefit and may or may not be planning to kill and eat you and your entire family including your dog but you work with what you have) Wanda healing process was basically 1-"I'm fine, everything's fine" 2-"I'm sad" 3-"I'm hurting people because I'm sad" 4-"I need to stop hurting people because I'm sad" It wasn't wallowing, it was accepting the feelings she had that were driving her behavior. You can't make change unless you do that.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:58
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The MCU stages of grief
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Mar 6, 2021 22:20
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It must be assumed in superhero media that the institutional problems we have don’t exist. Sometimes that media directly addresses them because they want to have their cake and eat it too though. Anyway turns out Hayward was right. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 22:20
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I mean, even if you assume the MCU doesn't have the same institutional problems as the real world, SWORD is the successor to SHIELD which was run by literal loving Nazis for 70 years, why on earth would Wanda trust them farther than she could throw them even if she felt she needed to perform some type of restitution?
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Mar 6, 2021 22:25
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XboxPants posted:This is pretty much how I saw the entire 8th episode, where her therapist Agatha takes her beat by beat through the painful moments she wasn't willing to process and makes her confront them in order to manipulate her into, basically, taking accountability for her current and past thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and actions. The problem is it's not a road to healing because all of that is finally acknowledging her toxic behavior after the confrontation, which she ceases, but then rejection of the actual processing of her grief by running away and diving into dark magic. It's trading an outwardly harmful behavior for an internal one. It's still wallowing because there has been no choice to take the next step site fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 22:26
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I've settled on "It's pretty good, but it's also not pretty good" and don't have much horse left in any of these races, but where is this idea that people want Wanda to go to prison coming from? No one think it's realistic for Wanda to turn herself in to be experimented on or whatever. But the way they dealt with the ramifications of her actions here simply felt disappointing in several ways. The most emotional resolution we get is the, let's be real, kinda cloying speech from the bleeding heart Monica trying to absolve Wanda of her culpability even more than it already has been absolved, which is like...it's nice that Monica is so nice or whatever, but it's also not satisfying.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:36
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BrianWilly posted:I've settled on "It's pretty good, but it's also not pretty good" and don't have much horse left in any of these races, but where is this idea that people want Wanda to go to prison coming from? Several people in this thread have stated that Wanda should volunteer to go to prison, which I have successfully countered with the fact that prison is lame as hell and if I had super powers then nobody could make me go to prison and none of you would go if you had super powers either, because prison sucks and super powers are rad
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Mar 6, 2021 22:50
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Skwirl posted:I mean, even if you assume the MCU doesn't have the same institutional problems as the real world, SWORD is the successor to SHIELD which was run by literal loving Nazis for 70 years, why on earth would Wanda trust them farther than she could throw them even if she felt she needed to perform some type of restitution? There's no actual connection between SHIELD and SWORD in the MCU, that's comic stuff. In fact, SWORD is older than SHIELD*. *: According to Iron Man but who knows what continuity counts anymore there. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 22:54
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Aphrodite posted:There's no actual connection between SHIELD and SWORD in the MCU, that's comic stuff. In the TV show Wandavision it seems like SWORD is taking over duties that would have previously fallen under SHIELD's purvue. An organization that apparently, at one point, had the capability to order a nuclear strike on Manhattan in under an hour. And was also run by Nazis.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:00
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Retro Futurist posted:Wanda goes into self imposed exile to heal and study so she can better control her powers, I don't know what a better solution would be here. Sticking her down a hole isn't going to work, there isn't really a therapy built for this, and just magicking everyone into forgetting would be a cop out. The resolution isn't great but it's probably the best there could be. SlimGoodbody posted:You are all missing my initial point that almost no one can make you go to jail if you have superpowers, and that is dope as hell, because going to jail sucks We have a word for the dudes who go "haha go to jail? haha gently caress you, my powers say 'no' so I guess suck it", and it is a different word.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:08
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Skwirl posted:In the TV show Wandavision it seems like SWORD is taking over duties that would have previously fallen under SHIELD's purvue. Definitely, but someone is going to get assigned that work and that alone (putting aside the names because that's just comic book silliness) isn't really enough to just make that assumption.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:11
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CapnAndy posted:If you want to still be called a superhero, nobody should have to make you to go to jail if you do something bad. I do not think she wants to be called a superhero, I don't think it's what she has ever wanted, and it is not what I would want either. If you have godlike powers you simply do not have to go to jail anymore. No one watched Greek plays to get mad that Ares or Zeus or whatever weren't arrested and put on trial.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:16
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Aphrodite posted:Definitely, but someone is going to get assigned that work and that alone (putting aside the names because that's just comic book silliness) isn't really enough to just make that assumption. but again, there's nothing to indicate to Wanda that SWORD is gonna be less evil since the guy in charge of it just got arrested for committing crimes against humanity and also just tried to kill her using the desiccated corpse of her husband. Thinking Wanda needs to do some sort of atonement for her actions is something I agree with, but nothing that's ever been presented in the MCU should lead anyone in those films to think the best form of that atonement would involve cooperating with the US government.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:20
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well if the greeks didn't think that way i guess that's all there is to say about the woman who joined the avengers a team that apparently has no reason to exist because supervillainy is fine BrianWilly posted:I've settled on "It's pretty good, but it's also not pretty good" and don't have much horse left in any of these races, but where is this idea that people want Wanda to go to prison coming from? tbf i am saying whether it's jail or supervised therapy or staying in westview with monica to help get everyone back on their feet and fixing all the poo poo she messed up regardless or if they hate her, she definitely needed to take responsibility somehow site fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 23:20
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CapnAndy posted:She actually does owe them atonement, and since our society has decided that prison is how you atone for poo poo like that, she owes them prison time. Nah our society is poo poo, gently caress going to jail. quote:If you want to still be called a superhero, nobody should have to make you to go to jail if you do something bad. The defining feature of Cap's side of the Avengers is saying "gently caress you I won't do what you told me" to the government, and specifically it saying it has the right to put them in jail.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:24
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Skwirl posted:but again, there's nothing to indicate to Wanda that SWORD is gonna be less evil since the guy in charge of it just got arrested for committing crimes against humanity and also just tried to kill her using the desiccated corpse of her husband. I mean, all Hayward was trying to do was stop a murderer terrorist supervillain who enslaved 3000 people. I'm not actually clear what he's being arrested for there. Cataract doesn't even seem to be a secret project, tons of people are working on it and it's going on through a window in his office.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:29
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Mulva posted:Nah our society is poo poo, gently caress going to jail. there's a major difference between "becoming the UN's swat team", and "you became a supervillain and you deserve some sort of punishment and/or require you to provide restitution to the town of westview, which you just mind controlled to play house" and to pretend these are equal feels kinda disingenuous
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Mar 6, 2021 23:29
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The thing is, I think that Wanda should provide restitution, but I don't think prison's the answer, but there's really nothing for her to do. Like, one obvious option is community service but Wanda herself (rightfully) points out that they're never gonna forgive her. I mean personally if someone mindfucked me for weeks, I wouldn't give a poo poo how much litter she cleaned up *googling what people do in community service* or public service projects she makes*, I'd want her locked up. The honest only best way for her to redeem herself is to keep saving the world. Eventually the residents of Westview will have to be like "well I hate her loving guts, but I guess we would all be dead without her..." *that said, Westview looks like a real shithole without the Hex, it's too bad Wanda can't just give the place a magic cleanup/restoration job without trapping everyone inside. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 23:33
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the point of helping them get back on their feet isn't so they'll like her or forgive her, it's that she owes them for completely loving up their lives
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Mar 6, 2021 23:35
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Fair enough, I suppose
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Mar 6, 2021 23:40
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site posted:the point of helping them get back on their feet isn't so they'll like her or forgive her, it's that she owes them for completely loving up their lives Oh yeah, that poo poo is fine, I'm just opposed to the idea she should surrender herself to SWORD. Ignoring the complete hosed-upness of real world American intelligence agencies, the MCU ones are loving horrible. CIA is the nice one, somehow (the CIA paid Disney a bunch of money to make them look good).
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Mar 6, 2021 23:45
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i guess that depends on whether monica gets to take over sword or not (i still think that should have been the resolution to heyward being arrested) jimmy woo, darcy, monica, wanda, white vision, the new alpha flight. disney where's my check
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Mar 6, 2021 23:57
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it's cool that the head of a presumably government affiliated military adjacent organization can be arrested by the FBI for, I guess, being mean to protagonists? like I'm not a hundred percent sure what that guy did but TV should have more government guys getting arrested for whatever
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Mar 7, 2021 00:06
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site posted:i guess that depends on whether monica gets to take over sword or not (i still think that should have been the resolution to heyward being arrested) Darcy is one of my favorite characters but I absolutely wouldn't surrender custody to any organization she's allowed to make decisions in.
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Mar 7, 2021 00:10
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Karma Tornado posted:it's cool that the head of a presumably government affiliated military adjacent organization can be arrested by the FBI for, I guess, being mean to protagonists? like I'm not a hundred percent sure what that guy did but TV should have more government guys getting arrested for whatever This particular technicality didn't exist back in the original film, but I think it makes sense that Stark, or someone else, was able to finagle the UN into this sort of compromise. "Okay, we'll all work for the government, but in return, the government can't just experiment on super people."
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Mar 7, 2021 00:23
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Skwirl posted:Darcy is one of my favorite characters but I absolutely wouldn't surrender custody to any organization she's allowed to make decisions in. Does darcy even work for sword? I can't remember if they explained where she fit in when she first showed up BrianWilly posted:He's a dumb cartoon villain, but he was getting arrested for violating the Sokovian Accords, which is a big deal international sanction that was a big deal in the Civil War film. Jimmy makes it clear in a previous episode, and also in this very same episode, that the Accords apparently include some sort of bylaw which states that you can't experiment on Vision's body without his consent. I am still curious how vision's body even wound up with sword in the first place. Okoye was just like, here's the guys corpse which is made out of vibranium, guess we'll just hand it over to the Americans! site fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 7, 2021 |
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Mar 7, 2021 00:31
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I have to imagine everyone was pretty burned out and hosed up after what had just gone down (the Snap), so people probably just did whatever. Like Cap was like "Uh I guess we should take our dead teammate back to our HQ and see if there's anything Banner can do for him since he was partial designer" and the remaining Wakandans in charge were just "Dude I literally don't care, nothing matters, poo poo your pants if you want to." And then sometime in the intervening chaos of Infinity War Part 2 and a bunch of heroes dying and coming back to life and loving off to other time streams, Vision's robot bits got shuffled to a black site.
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Mar 7, 2021 01:06
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site posted:I am still curious how vision's body even wound up with sword in the first place. Okoye was just like, here's the guys corpse which is made out of vibranium, guess we'll just hand it over to the Americans! I'm presuming the entire Wakandan government being thrown into crazy upheaval when the king loving disintegrated and that had Okoye busy enough.
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Mar 7, 2021 01:30
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site posted:Does darcy even work for sword? I can't remember if they explained where she fit in when she first showed up And don't forget, Vision's body isn't just vibranium, it's STOLEN vibranium. Now it's one thing to give that a pass when said vibranium has a mind and soul of it's own, but if SWORD think it's property, I kinda feel like it should be an international incident to not return the stolen mineral to it's owner. (I mean, let's be real, Wakanda should be on the UN Security Council at the very least) And just jumping back a little, I think the idea is SHIELD is just a rebranding of the SSR that created Cap, so it massively predates SWORD.
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Mar 7, 2021 02:31
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site posted:jimmy woo, darcy, monica, wanda, white vision, the new alpha flight. disney where's my check Not one of them is Canadian, what is this poo poo
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Mar 7, 2021 03:06
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You don't know Darcy isn't Canadian
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Mar 7, 2021 03:17
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site posted:You don't know Darcy isn't Canadian That accent is completely Staton Island.
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Mar 7, 2021 03:20
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