|
BougieBitch posted:Even discounting that particular post, the tenor of the conversation in USPOL that led to this thread getting revived a week ago was on the same level or more extreme. If you don't personally think that Biden is deliberately causing bad conditions then good, we agree that he's some combo of incompetent and powerless, but there are people that ARE attributing it to malice and it's not really productive to just pretend like those people aren't here just because it isn't a point you are arguing or believe other people are arguing - they can speak for themselves if they interpret this as a straw man of their position, but it's at least one possible reading of their post and I'd say a reasonable one I'm doing my best to adhere to the rules and stay away from where I'm not wanted but since I'm being quoted for a post I got probated twice for and people are speculating, allow me to clarify: the position of the Biden administration is a white supremacist position of ethnic cleansing, Joe Biden and his DHS have literally said "The Border is CLOSED" on televised news show appearances, and it is my belief that the cruelty is still the point to them because they think this will disincentivize the terrible scourge of lesser humans seeking a better life as they flee conditions abroad that imperialist/colonialist foreign policies of the United States have created. So no, it's not exactly a straw man, I believe Joe Biden is a white supremacist and the policies and actions of his administration reflect that, and that by not ending the ongoing ethnic cleansing he has the authority to, he is maliciously contributing to genocide. To Majorian MPF and whoever, I'm very sorry for making a mean joke about the mass murderer doing this instead of providing appropriate sources. I won't post ITT again, I just wanted to clarify because people were digging up quotes.
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 17:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:49 |
|
|
quote:The federal government will use a Dallas convention center to house up to 3,000 illegal immigrant teenagers amid a surge of unaccompanied minors arriving at the U.S.-Mexico border, a report said Monday. I'm sorry if you detain thousands of people and force them to stay in a small delimited area, that's a what?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 17:41
|
|
|
ram dass in hell posted:I'm doing my best to adhere to the rules and stay away from where I'm not wanted but since I'm being quoted for a post I got probated twice for and people are speculating, allow me to clarify: Thanks for this response, I don't even really think your view is invalid or illegitimate, but it does limit the range of discussion quite a bit if we assume that our leaders are malicious, because it means that we basically need to picket and storm the gates, essentially. If things stay like this much longer I might cross over to that camp, but I don't think we've exhausted all the options for working within the system yet, and the other options are probably better not posted about in a space open to anyone who pays 
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 17:45
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:Thanks for this response, I don't even really think your view is invalid or illegitimate, but it does limit the range of discussion quite a bit if we assume that our leaders are malicious, because it means that we basically need to picket and storm the gates, essentially. If things stay like this much longer I might cross over to that camp, but I don't think we've exhausted all the options for working within the system yet, and the other options are probably better not posted about in a space open to anyone who pays Joe is the system, what's there to work with when he either is malicious or incompetently running it?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 17:50
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:I'm sorry if you detain thousands of people and force them to stay in a small delimited area, that's a what? "Located in the heart of downtown Dallas, the KBHCCD has been and continues to be a fixture in the Dallas skyline offering 1 million square feet of exhibit space, three ballrooms, 88 meeting rooms, 1,750-seat theater, and a 9,816-seat arena." The terminology is certainly disgusting, but if they set up the meeting rooms with like 10 kids a piece it will definitely be a lot less cramped than current conditions. That said, just this release isn't really enough info because the convention center is also being used for vaccinations. This could be a net good thing, since it means there is a much better chance of them getting the vaccine (for those it's approved for, just over-16 right now I think), but it also means that some of the space is definitely still being used for other things. If they have access to even a third of the square footage tho, that's at least 100 sq ft per person, which should be enough space for a basic dorm-size living space for each of them, and some of the room could be used for classrooms or other activity spaces so that needs beyond food water and shelter are being met Edit: found a slightly more recent article with more details on the deal, we can probably figure out how many sq ft this covers with a bit of research, will report back when I figure it out. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/pol...-officials-say/ quote:The deal allows the use of space at the Kay Bailey Hutchison Convention Center, including its largest exhibit hall and a nearby lobby. This also specifies that the term of the contract is for 75 days, so if they aren't ready to be inspected within a week or so then frankly it will be a failed plan - from what I could see though, they haven't actually moved very many there yet, so it might just be that parts of it are essentially a construction zone right now. Reading further, it looks like it will stop being used as a vaccine distribution site at the end of this week, so that might be part of the reason for any delays as well "The largest contiguous exhibit space in the structure is 726,726 sq ft (67,515 m2). A 203,000 sq ft (18,900 m2) column-free exhibit hall is the largest of its kind in the United States.[1]" From Wikipedia, not sure which of these two numbers corresponds to the space they have access to but even the lower number will allow for actually safe distancing with some pop-up partitions and sleeping bags or cots. My biggest concern would be the staffing needs and hygiene concerns, but apparently it has been used as an emergency shelter in the past so there might at least be some kind of staff locker room for showering or something - still will probably end up with more reports of "most kids could only shower once or twice a week" but at the least they could distribute the stuff needed for, like, sponge baths or something and for the period of time where it overlaps with the vaccine distribution I would expect the kids and staff will be able to access the excess doses that would otherwise go to waste at the end of the day At the least, I'm glad that they are indoors and have access to running water and heat, because the camps on the border that the Trump admin was forcing people to stay at were a fair sight worse - it will only be possible well after the fact to make a real determination, but I suspect a lot of the reports of high rates of COVID have more to do with the previous conditions than the current ones. That said, we NEED to know what the inside looks like by the end of this March, because if the sleeping areas and partitions don't happen then it could easily be another hotspot Notably, this will be run by FEMA and HHS as a way to take kids out of the CBP facilities that have drawn so much ire. It's not enough to guarantee any sort of positive result, but the less CBP and ICE have to do with these kids the better BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:So you've got four different things you are saying here but are trying to tie them into one. Its a very easy argument. If neither party can be a reliable vehicle for positive change and the only time they accomplish anything is when they're throwing billions of our dollars into things we don't want or need, then why are we even entertaining this god awful system? We are literally spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a day to create misery for immigrants, and if this system isn't forcibly dismantled now, it'll be expanded on when a Republican is elected in 2024.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 18:31
|
|
|
Bishyaler posted:Its a very easy argument. If neither party can be a reliable vehicle for positive change and the only time they accomplish anything is when they're throwing billions of our dollars into things we don't want or need, then why are we even entertaining this god awful system? We are literally spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a day to create misery for immigrants, and if this system isn't forcibly dismantled now, it'll be expanded on when a Republican is elected in 2024. It sounds like you are posting in the wrong thread then, the title of this thread is "US Immigration Policy Megathread", so if you don't think that US Immigration Policy is meaningful reformable then that's fine, but it's not really conducive to a policy discussion. Some threads are for working within the system and some threads are for working outside of it, and this is one of the former
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 20:37
|
|
|
This thread got revived because two mods felt icky about having to read 'concentration camps' when defending the concentration camps existing, I don't think you can impose some arbitrary tone thing on top of that (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 20:39
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:This thread got revived because two mods felt icky about having to read 'concentration camps' when defending the concentration camps existing, I don't think you can impose some arbitrary tone thing on top of that This thread got revived for the same reason almost every policy specific thread gets revived, the topic becoming yet another proxy battleground for the war between the Accelerationist and Incrementalist posters that ate up hundreds of posts and tens of pages with pointless bickering and personal attacks being the inevitable endpoint.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 20:46
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:This thread got revived because two mods felt icky about having to read 'concentration camps' True quote:when defending the concentration camps existing Not true Sanguinia posted:This thread got revived for the same reason almost every policy specific thread gets revived, the topic becoming yet another proxy battleground for the war between the Accelerationist and Incrementalist posters that ate up hundreds of posts and tens of pages with pointless bickering and personal attacks being the inevitable endpoint. True Basically everyone is mad about the concentration camps and nobody here has anyone to yell at, because none of us want to go over to the comments section of Brietbart or whatever, so everyone latches on to real or perceived minor differences and treats it like the person is 100% in love with concentration camps. And that's how we get from "hey can I have literally any single source besides Veritas, known fabricator of images?" to "Actually if you doubt Vertitas you are a camp apologist" Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 20:50
|
|
|
They aren’t concentration camps. Like they aren’t by any reasonable definition no matter how bad you want to own the libels, and framing it that way is unproductive and disingenuous. No one wants to engage with if the starting point is implicitly comparing it the Shoah. They are refugee camps; of which there are a disturbing number. They are in conditions not fit for long term human habitation, and the goal should be to get them out of there as soon as possible, safely. Without taking up the comedy option of nationalizing Disney world to house them or evicting a bunch of soldiers from their barracks, there is no realistic way to conjure up facilities to meet your bloodlust. As an aside if you find these objectionable; the refugee camps like the Jungle in Calais or Greece are horrifying, let alone the nightmare that Australia has in Nauru. In general the west doesn’t have a ton of spare housing capacity that can be used without tremendous turmoil because of capitalism and private property rights, so using such dire accelerationist language isn’t helping, and just making you sound like shrill lunatics?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 20:59
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:It sounds like you are posting in the wrong thread then, the title of this thread is "US Immigration Policy Megathread", so if you don't think that US Immigration Policy is meaningful reformable then that's fine, but it's not really conducive to a policy discussion. Some threads are for working within the system and some threads are for working outside of it, and this is one of the former While I agree that this thread should focus on U.S. immigration policy, ways to reform or overhaul it, and methods for (legal) direct action to bring about necessary changes, I'd ask that you refrain from backseat modding like this, thanks. freeasinbeer posted:They aren’t concentration camps. Like they aren’t by any reasonable definition no matter how bad you want to own the libels, and framing it that way is unproductive and disingenuous. No one wants to engage with if the starting point is implicitly comparing it the Shoah. Concentration camps existed long before the Shoah, and the term is not synonymous with death camps like Auschwitz. We (the mods/IKs) are going to allow people to call them that ITT, and we're not going to engage in semantic debates here. quote:In general the west doesn’t have a ton of spare housing capacity that can be used without tremendous turmoil because of capitalism and private property rights, so using such dire accelerationist language isn’t helping, and just making you sound like shrill lunatics? The U.S. has plenty of empty hotels right now, and the Biden Administration is doing the right thing by beginning to house detainees in some of those hotels. They need to do more, at a more rapid pace. Please do not call people lunatics for having strong feelings on an emotionally fraught matter, thanks. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 21:00
|
|
|
freeasinbeer posted:They aren’t concentration camps. Like they aren’t by any reasonable definition no matter how bad you want to own the libels, and framing it that way is unproductive and disingenuous. No one wants to engage with if the starting point is implicitly comparing it the Shoah. The only one comparing it to the holocaust is you, concentration camps weren't invented by the nazis and it's way more deeply offensive to me to be told I'm 'comparing' the two because of your own hangups.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 21:01
|
|
|
freeasinbeer posted:They aren’t concentration camps. Like they aren’t by any reasonable definition no matter how bad you want to own the libels, and framing it that way is unproductive and disingenuous. No one wants to engage with if the starting point is implicitly comparing it the Shoah. Nope, it's a reasonable term to use. https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2019/06/20/detention-concentration-camps-miles-howard quote:Andrea Pitzer, the author of "One Long Night: A Global History of Concentration Camps," recently told Esquire, “Things can be concentrations camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz.”
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 21:05
|
|
|
Majorian posted:While I agree that this thread should focus on U.S. immigration policy, ways to reform or overhaul it, and methods for (legal) direct action to bring about necessary changes, I'd ask that you refrain from backseat modding like this, thanks. Last time DHS used just any old hotels it was worse then camps. Like they thing y’all are screaming up and down for was used by the trump administration to make oversight worse. Why is concentration camps more correct then refugee camps, then of not to inflame the discussion by implicitly bringing the Shoah into play. Like they are explicitly that. Concentration camps are also multi year affairs for the folks being concentrated in every historical instance that I can think of back to the Boer Wars, with the historical exception of death camps, from the Shoah. I am unaware of any one being held long term in these camps. The other wrinkle is that there are documented cases of kids being given over to slavery when document checking was lax. You’ll can huff and puff and come up with hair-brained nonsense but there isn’t something anyone can conjure to fix this; unless we want to seize something like Disney world. Which I am all on board for, but stop alienating everyone with your inflammatory use of incorrect terminology. Edit: if y’all think refugee camp is too tame, then it reflects poorly on y’all for not knowing some of the horrific poo poo that terminology entails and the horrid trade offs that folks have been struggling with in refugee camps around the world. freeasinbeer fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 21:43
|
|
|
Most people around here were perfectly fine with calling them concentration camps up until 12:00 PM EST on January 20, 2021. Just because the administration changed doesn’t make them any less than what they are.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:04
|
|
|
freeasinbeer posted:Edit: if y’all think refugee camp is too tame, then it reflects poorly on y’all for not knowing some of the horrific poo poo that terminology entails and the horrid trade offs that folks have been struggling with in refugee camps around the world. Both terms can be true. It doesn't reflect poorly on people to use an accurate term. I'd urge you to look at the history of concentration camps rather than just focusing on Nazi ones. Nucleic Acids posted:Most people around here were perfectly fine with calling them concentration camps up until 12:00 PM EST on January 20, 2021. Not true. The average person thinks, as freeasinbeer, that the term is only ever used for Nazi death camps and it was controvertial on this board for a long time. Still is. It's a correct term but not in the popular consciousness. There wasn't a signficant shift in it's usage since Biden is office, the only shift has been in how OK people are with the speed things are moving at in terms of fixing the problem, or if Biden is fixing it at all. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:06
|
|
|
freeasinbeer posted:Last time DHS used just any old hotels it was worse then camps. That's because the Trump Administration intentionally put those kids in hotels to skirt regulations and keep them from lawyers and advocates. Hopefully Biden will not be doing this, although we'll see. quote:Why is concentration camps more correct then refugee camps, then of not to inflame the discussion by implicitly bringing the Shoah into play. People can refer to the camps however they feel is appropriate. If you want to call them internment camps or refugee camps, have at it. We're just not going to have semantic debates about it here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:28
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Both terms can be true. I’m quite aware of the origin of the term, and it’s escalation. It was invented as a way to sequester an enemies civilian support in order to deny them material aid. This was ultimately twisted into the work and eventual death camps of the Nazis. No matter what nonsense you proclaim that is not what is happening now. The lovely bit is, that I am otherwise appalled at the southern border and want to do all I can to rectify, but your wanton use of inflammatory language is disheartening and alienating. It is quite telling that you are unaware of the displaced persons and refugee camps that we made Holocaust survivors as well as other people displaced by war stay in after the war, that were much more squalid and disgusting then the still awful refugee camps that you are calling concentration camps. The terminology that was used for them was refugee camps, and was the driving force for the creation of the UNHCR.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:35
|
|
|
freeasinbeer posted:I’m quite aware of the origin of the term, and it’s escalation. It was invented as a way to sequester an enemies civilian support in order to deny them material aid. This was ultimately twisted into the work and eventual death camps of the Nazis. No matter what nonsense you proclaim that is not what is happening now. The lovely bit is, that I am otherwise appalled at the southern border and want to do all I can to rectify, but your wanton use of inflammatory language is disheartening and alienating. This is what we call tone policing. If my terminology is keeping you from supporting changes at the southern border, it's because you're actually full of poo poo and were looking for an excuse. Given that various academics, journalists, and experts agree it's an appropriate term, I'd suggest you put your fragility act away. quote:It is quite telling that you are unaware of the displaced persons and refugee camps that we made Holocaust survivors as well as other people displaced by war stay in after the war, that were much more squalid and disgusting then the still awful refugee camps that you are calling concentration camps. The terminology that was used for them was refugee camps, and was the driving force for the creation of the UNHCR. I said both terms are accurate and I don't think I'm the one lacking information here or being precious here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:38
|
|
|
Majorian posted:That's because the Trump Administration intentionally put those kids in hotels to skirt regulations and keep them from lawyers and advocates. Hopefully Biden will not be doing this, although we'll see. Yet we let folks go into every conversation painting everyone implicitly a Nazi at best or a British Colonial Administrator at worst, just utterly destroying any conversation that isn’t someone circle jerking to calling them death camps. If your tone is yelling “concentration camps” over and over to own the libs; maybe it should be policed?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:38
|
|
|
Majorian posted:People can refer to the camps however they feel is appropriate. If you want to call them internment camps or refugee camps, have at it. We're just not going to have semantic debates about it here. Why? Words have meaning. There is a enormous difference between a concentration camp and a refugee camp. If someone believes that a term isn't being used properly I would hope that debate is allowed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:38
|
|
|
freeasinbeer posted:If your tone is yelling “concentration camps” over and over to own the libs; maybe it should be policed? If you decide whether or not you are willing to fight to help tortured/molested children based on what words people use, I'd hazard that tone policing is about the limit of what you ever were going to do. It's a bullshit tactic, and you should know better. If you think it's incorrect, fine, make that argument using facts. If you want to tell me "where I'm being offended by your usage of it instead of supporting the closure of these I'm just going to give up" then that's manipulation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:41
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:If you decide whether or not you are willing to fight to help tortured/molested children based on what words people use, I'd hazard that tone policing is about the limit of what you ever were going to do. There are no easy answers here; when there was lax oversight before in order to process faster; kids were released into literal modern day slavery harvesting crops in Ohio.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:43
|
|
|
freeasinbeer posted:There are no easy answers here; when there was lax oversight before in order to process faster; kids were released into literal modern day slavery harvesting crops in Ohio. I never said there were easy answers. What I said was this freeasinbeer posted:The lovely bit is, that I am otherwise appalled at the southern border and want to do all I can to rectify, but your wanton use of inflammatory language is disheartening and alienating. is manipulative tone policing bullshit. gently caress all the way off with that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:47
|
|
|
There aren't easy answers to a refugee crisis, but there are easy answers to a fascist paramilitary running the <insert your preferred newspeak> camps and intentionally creating a processing backlog in order to cram as many vulnerable kids into dangerous conditions as possible in order to fabricate a crisis, strong-arm the elected part of the government into supporting additional funding for the camps and the paramilitaries, and win political points for the right by making the liberals look incompetent. You want to talk about committing crimes to own your posting enemies, give this a read:quote:I personally went to that dog kennel. The Border Patrol had since emptied it because the press was snooping around too much. In El Paso and at my old station that is now an “ice-box” processing facility, I met with several agents. After telling them I was a former agent and throwing around some lingo only agents know, I asked why they were holding asylum seekers so long. After all, I know the programs they use even today. I know it did not take that long to process a family of asylum seekers. Even in my early days as an agent when I carried a revolver and used a typewriter to do my cases, it did not take that long. Every single agent I spoke to, from Texas and California, admitted that they were intentionally slow-walking the processing to create a backlog. Of course, there was no memo stating those orders, but it was still an order. Now here's how the guy Biden just put in charge of this clusterfuck describes them: quote:CONGRESSWOMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT QUESTION. I WALKED INTO OFFICE ON FEBRUARY SECOND OF THIS YEAR WITH ALREADY TREMENDOUS PRIDE IN THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND THE MEN AND WOMEN ON THE FRONTLINES. MY PRIDE IS ONLY SWELLED IN THE DAYS SINCE I TOOK OFFICE. I WILL SHARE WITH YOU THAT I WAS ON THE BORDER A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND I SAW THE HEROISM OF THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE UNITED STATES BORDER PATROL. I SAW THEM UNDERTAKE PERSONAL SACRIFICE TO NOT ONLY ENSURE THAT THE BORDER IS SECURE BUT THAT THE NEEDS OF VERY YOUNG CHILDREN ARE TAKEN CARE OF. AND THEY ACCOMPLISH BOTH. I HEARD FROM THEM CONCERNS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE LEADERSHIP OF THE DEPARTMENT IN THE PAST HAD NOT ADDRESSED THEIR PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELL BEING. I HEARD THAT FROM THEIR REPRESENTATIVES. AND IT IS FOR THAT REASON THAT WE DOUBLE DOWN ON OPERATION VOW, VACCINATE OUR WORK FORCE, AND WE'VE MADE THE TREMENDOUS STRIDES THAT WE HAVE. IT IS WHY I AM PUSHING FOR THE RIGHT SIZING OF OUR WORK FORCE AND THE FUNDING WE NEED TO ACCOMPLISH THAT. I WILL DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO FULLY SUPPORT THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, BECAUSE THEY DO EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO SERVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND TO DO SO NOBLY AND ABLY. Every day that goes by that Biden and Mayorkas continue to back these loving monsters is a day they're backing this: https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1373997915983777793?s=20 The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:55
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:Why? Nah, it leads to ridiculous derails that dominate the conversation, as we saw in USPOL. So we're just not going to allow those derails. This thread is for discussing U.S. immigration policy and ways to change it, not semantic derails. freeasinbeer posted:Yet we let folks go into every conversation painting everyone implicitly a Nazi at best or a British Colonial Administrator at worst, just utterly destroying any conversation that isn’t someone circle jerking to calling them death camps. If you see any posts like that, feel free to report them, or PM an IK, because ad hominem attacks like what you describe are against DnD rules. IK Hat On: Now, let's put a stop to this meta-discussion and get back to this thread's topic. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 22:56
|
|
|
Nucleic Acids posted:Most people around here were perfectly fine with calling them concentration camps up until 12:00 PM EST on January 20, 2021. This is a canned argument worthy of a Facebook Minions Meme. People were more willing to call them concentration camps under Trump for a really good reason: he was using them to concentrate an ethnic minority for the explicit purpose of hurting them, killing them, and thereby instilling them with terror to try and prevent them from wanting to enter this country. This was his stated purpose, and he was proud to say so. If you really see no difference in the situation with Biden in charge, there's no point in discussing the issue.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:10
|
|
|
Where are those pictures from? They aren't in the linked article, and the tweet doesn't do anything to source them. Is this yet another laundering of the Veritas photos by people that should know better? I also would say, I think calling these camps refugee camps is important, in that there's a lot of people who choose to ignore the refugee camps in Europe where displaced Syrians have been shoved and left to rot. Refugee camps are horrible places, generally, and it's not minimizing anything to identify the US versions as equally unpleasant - if anything, insisting that the US version is out of the ordinary by singling them out as "concentration camps" is giving too much credit to the equally ugly European anti-immigrant attitudes, which went unexamined for far too long until the various nationalist parties were given a foothold. American exceptionalism cuts both ways here - by thinking that only America can do things so awful in the modern day, we discount the universality of xenophobia and racial bias BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:11
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:This is a canned argument worthy of a Facebook Minions Meme. People were more willing to call them concentration camps under Trump for a really good reason: he was using them to concentrate an ethnic minority for the explicit purpose of hurting them, killing them, and thereby instilling them with terror to try and prevent them from wanting to enter this country. This was his stated purpose, and he was proud to say so. If the material conditions are the same, why does it matter if its done proudly and openly or covertly and shamefully?
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:17
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:Where are those pictures from? They aren't in the linked article, and the tweet doesn't do anything to source them. Is this yet another laundering of the Veritas photos by people that should know better? They're from a Democratic congressman and every single post in this thread trying to tie those photos to Project Veritas is some grade A+ water muddying because people would rather complain about propagandists who released other, different photos of the facility than talk about the substance of huge numbers of kids being incarcerated under monstrously inhumane conditions. Stop. Sanguinia posted:This is a canned argument worthy of a Facebook Minions Meme. People were more willing to call them concentration camps under Trump for a really good reason: he was using them to concentrate an ethnic minority for the explicit purpose of hurting them, killing them, and thereby instilling them with terror to try and prevent them from wanting to enter this country. This was his stated purpose, and he was proud to say so. This policy explicitly started under Obama, not Trump. In fact, Obama actually got his hand slapped by the court system explicitly for using harmful detention as a deterrent against asylum seekers back in 2015. The ACLU filed suit and got an injunction against the administration because he made the mistake of saying the quiet part loud: that our system of family and minor detention is explicitly doing harm (illegally) to asylum seekers already in the country in the hopes that others will see the crimes we're committing and stay in their dangerous present circumstances. The same thing is defacto happening under Biden since it's the policy of CBP to slow-walk processing and intentionally overcrowd their facilities and Biden won't hold them accountable for it. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/immigration-detention-injunction_n_6724662 https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/order_0.pdf
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:17
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Nah, it leads to ridiculous derails that dominate the conversation, as we saw in USPOL. So we're just not going to allow those derails. This thread is for discussing U.S. immigration policy and ways to change it, not semantic derails. I don't know what happened in MSPol. Housing immigrants is absolutely a topic that's going to part of any immigration policy for any Country. There's hundreds of articles online on the subject from housing, enforcements, camps, etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:19
|
|
|
BougieBitch posted:I also would say, I think calling these camps refugee camps is important, in that there's a lot of people who choose to ignore the refugee camps in Europe where displaced Syrians have been shoved and left to rot. Refugee camps are horrible places, generally, and it's not minimizing anything to identify the US versions as equally unpleasant - if anything, insisting that the US version is out of the ordinary by singling them out as "concentration camps" is giving too much credit to the equally ugly European anti-immigrant attitudes, which went unexamined for far too long until the various nationalist parties were given a foothold. American exceptionalism cuts both ways here - by thinking that only America can do things so awful in the modern day, we discount the universality of xenophobia and racial bias Whataboutism has entered the thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:20
|
|
Majorian posted:Nah, it leads to ridiculous derails that dominate the conversation, as we saw in USPOL. So we're just not going to allow those derails. This thread is for discussing U.S. immigration policy and ways to change it, not semantic derails. The decision in USPOL was specifically to make people stop calling them concentration camps, because, and I quote, Handsome Ralph posted:IK Hat on Handsome Ralph posted:Nah, that's not what I'm saying unless you're incredibly loving daft. Handsome Ralph posted:I'm pretty familiar with the history of the concentration camp and how it was a thing in South Africa and the Philippines among other places long before the Nazis ever came to power. Handsome Ralph posted:Co-signed So what you've done is taken a form of rhetorical abuse that was specifically disallowed in USPOL, for reasons that are no less applicable here, and you've enshrined it as an acceptable standard.
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:28
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:They're from a Democratic congressman and every single post in this thread trying to tie those photos to Project Veritas is some grade A+ water muddying because people would rather complain about propagandists who released other, different photos of the facility than talk about the substance of huge numbers of kids being incarcerated under monstrously inhumane conditions. Stop. Okay, let's reiterate because it seems that people haven't been reading the posts they reply to. They are not FROM Cuellar, he did not take them, he has not said where he got them, and he literally reposted a FWD:FWD:FWD video of a border crossing that was likely staged, originally posted by a group called Tripwires and Triggers, so assuming that he has some secret inside source rather than just another FWD:FWD:FWD Facebook group is making a huge leap. I posted this literally two pages ago. If you have CONCRETE info on where those photos came from, then feel free to let us know, but he has not demonstrated any level of savvy when it comes to identifying misleading sources, so if CBS is taking his word for it rather than getting in touch with the original photographer then that is just another FWD: in the chain https://www.axios.com/photos-overcrowded-border-patrol-migrant-tents-0525a96b-0dc8-473f-b59c-38b0b3e52760.html quote:Cuellar, who recently visited a shelter for children, did not tour the Donna facility or take the photos himself. He said the photos were taken over the weekend. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Mar 23, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:28
|
|
|
Crosby B. Alfred posted:I don't know what happened in MSPol. Of course it is. So discuss it. Don't language police people, though. Discendo Vox posted:The decision in USPOL was specifically to make people stop calling them concentration camps, because, and I quote, We've already discussed this a couple pages back. As you see, Ralph concurred. As the grandson of a Sachsenhausen survivor, I have no problem with people referring to these camps as "concentration camps." If you don't like my stance, you can feel free to take it up with one of the higher-up mods or admins, but that is my final word on the topic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:34
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Nah, it leads to ridiculous derails that dominate the conversation, as we saw in USPOL. So we're just not going to allow those derails. This thread is for discussing U.S. immigration policy and ways to change it, not semantic derails. It's not a semantic derail, it's tone policing. It's an entirely valid term and the fragility of certain posters isn't a good enough reason to ban it, since it's entirely on topic for this thread. This isn't USPOL, it's a thread about immigration. Your job as an IK is not to tone police.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:34
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:It's not a semantic derail, it's tone policing. Which is why I and the other mods and IKs agree that we will not tone police on this topic. Now please, enough of the meta-discussion, folks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 23, 2021 23:35
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:This is a canned argument worthy of a Facebook Minions Meme. People were more willing to call them concentration camps under Trump for a really good reason: he was using them to concentrate an ethnic minority for the explicit purpose of hurting them, killing them, and thereby instilling them with terror to try and prevent them from wanting to enter this country. This was his stated purpose, and he was proud to say so. I mean after those photos came out I just don’t see a difference right now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 00:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 06:49 |
|
Majorian posted:Which is why I and the other mods and IKs agree that we will not tone police on this topic. How people can have a discussion of anything if they disagree on what words mean in the first place? The group that uses "concentration camp" is going to be continually interpreted as saying that the camps at the border are equivalent of the Nazi camps because that is the most well known usage of the term, those who use some other term are going to be seen as trying to minimize the camps and stan for the Biden administration. How is discussion supposed to occur when both sides view each other as somewhere between deceitful propagandists and blood gurgling monsters? Anyway, those pictures from the tweet don't really give me enough information to decide how bad things actually are in the camps, I'm more interested in things like how well the refugees are being fed, if they have regular access to bathing/bathroom facilities and how long it's taking to process them and get them into better conditions. If they're stuck in there for 3 days that's very different from 3 weeks which is different from 3 months. I'm just hoping that they aren't in there for years, but I had my expectations of refugee treatment set by reading about the Australian camps so I guess my expectations for refugee treatment are already at rock bottom. 
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 24, 2021 01:47
|
|
