the 2016 lover posted:

Okay, any thoughts on the story, either the version in the link that was sent to me or the one you posted which you said is the same? Or angryposting into the void about posters?

I'll start: I think the framing of "stemming the flow" is repugnant and dehumanizing, and just further example of the Biden admin's policy of "The border is closed." Also, I think it's a massive liability for Harris to put her directly in charge of this and will probably hurt her status as a "rising star" (not something I particularly care about, as I don't care for her).

Jaxyon posted:

Why would I be angry at you? I just think it's hilarious that some folks are clearly following ultra-right wing news sites like Veritas and the Daily Heil rather than leftist ones(like the Guardian is...well center left), because you care more about owning the libs than accuracy. Just because they sometimes are right doesn't mean it's not dumb as gently caress for you to be doing.

Jaxyon posted:

Why would I be angry at you? I just think it's hilarious that some folks are clearly following ultra-right wing news sites like Veritas and the Daily Heil rather than leftist ones(like the Guardian is...well center left), because you care more about owning the libs than accuracy. Just because they sometimes are right doesn't mean it's not dumb as gently caress for you to be doing.

As for Kamala, she's a shithead who supports slavery and the rhetoric is indeed very bad.

While at the same time, she's also being set up with a lovely job that will be a no-win for her and get her all the blame for decisions that were largely made by white men. This is a pretty common thing that most women and people of color who see this are going to be familiar with.

the 2016 lover posted:

So, just to be clear, you're not even mad and, in fact, you find it funny

sexpig by night posted:

I assume since you linked the guardian that means you love them and love their constant TERF poo poo then, since that's the only reason you'd link a source.

quote:

Also I really don't get the point you're trying to make. She sucks and will do a bad job because she's a bad person...but also she's been set up to fail?

Jaxyon posted:

I didn't know about their TERF history. I do now. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. That's entirely my mistake.

Jaxyon posted:

Here's the Washington post covering the Kamala appointment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/03/24/joe-biden-live-updates/

I didn't think I'd have to defend my stance that the Daily Mail is known nazi trash but here we are.

The Guardian posted:

The president reiterated his commitment to tackling the underlying issues that are spurring migrants to flee their home countries.

“The best way to keep people from coming is keep them from wanting to leave,” Biden said.

The president cited gang violence, drug cartels and natural disasters as some of the reasons why migrants decide to make the treacherous journey to the US-Mexican border.

sexpig by night posted:

the joke was that all these loving ghouls are evil and caring about The Bad Paper when it's reporting on something objectively true is really dumb, Jesus loving Christ I didn't actually give a poo poo about you posting another source, Biden announced it, we know it's true!

Fritz the Horse posted:

Sounds like Kamala's role is being billed as a diplomatic effort and not law enforcement, which is good.


They're at least talking about addressing root causes.

It'll be interesting to hear what they say at the presser.

Jaxyon posted:

The joke to me is that people are regularly reading completely unreliable far right trash to get a leg up on owning the libs, which allows innaccurate propaganda poo poo to filter into otherwise reasonable discourse.

We've multiple times in many threads including USPol have had to derail into explaining why some made up poo poo is made up because it's being endlessly repeated in far-right sources and some don't seem to care as long as it makes "the libs" look bad, even if their personal politics is leftist.

There are Bad News Sources, which also sometimes run accurate news. Fox News polling is actually fairly reliable. Should we then regularly be considering Fox a reliable source? No?

Or should we acknowledge that there's some news sources that are pretty unreliable on a regular basis, even if they occasionally get the story right.

Lester Shy posted:

This is an odd argument to make in the middle of a pandemic caused by an airborne virus. We've all gotten pretty adept at noticing when there are too many people crowded together in too small a space like you can clearly see in the photos.

sexpig by night posted:

you're projecting so much on a twitter link holy gently caress go touch some grass or something this is wild even for D&D

Fritz the Horse posted:

edit: the second part of the "don't come" messaging is "you'll apply for asylum where you are." They want to try and get our poo poo together at the border.

I don't think the "apply for asylum in your home country" will work very well. If conditions are so bad you're willing to sell everything you own and make a dangerous trip to the US border, you don't have the option to just stay in place.

sexpig by night posted:

the Haiti situation is especially disgusting for this rhetoric because the people fleeing right now are victims of a US backed dictator that's crushing any dissent so it's just straight up 'we hosed your country again, don't come here though' cruelty

BougieBitch posted:

are you going to address the argument about how you can tell how close or far apart people are based on the photos

Insanite posted:

I mean, we did (and are doing) it to Latin America. That's just business as usual in the Global South.

Lester Shy posted:

Are you trying to tell me with a straight face that the people in these photos are more than six feet apart? This is not a funhouse optical illusion, it's too many people crammed in too small a space during a pandemic.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1373997915983777793/photo/2

BougieBitch posted:

If we believe the assertions in the article that people within CBP staged the "migrants crossing the border" video then I really don't think it's a bridge too far to assume that the photos from inside the facility could be similarly staged- all it takes is some rear end in a top hat with a badge shouting at scared people that they need to gather up in a place and then snapping a quick photo of it. None of that is to excuse the existence of the facility in the first place, the resistance to letting press or elected officials into the space, or any of the other steps that led to this point, but the answer to the question of "would someone really stage something like this?" is a resounding "YES!", so trying to frame people asking for you to wait a day or two for a deeper dive on the photos (or for the questions at the Thursday conference) before you internalize the photos as the unassailable truth of the matter really is not that much to ask. They disbanded ACORN with similar bullshit, they have pulled like 5 similar scams with Planned Parenthood and such and got caught out doing it in the intervening years, there is absolutely NO reason to take the equivalent of a Fwd:Fwd:Fwd email as the truth.

I understand the urge to change things RIGHT NOW, especially when there is so much bad poo poo happening at once, but there are only so many hours in the day and fixing the problem requires contract to be signed and money to be distributed and documentation of the reason for firing the people responsible, it was never going to get done in the amount of time that we want it to be. Just as Trump couldn't fire the whole EPA or DoJ, Biden can't fire the whole CBP or ICE, the rules apply whether they are defending good people or bad. The statements going out are certainly discouraging, but the statements going out about the stimulus bill were also discouraging, and then it passed with no cuts to the total dollar amount, so let's give it to the end of the month, just like we gave the stimulus bill until the second week of March, and if nothing has happened by then myself and at least one or two other posters have stated that we will flip our outrage switches right along with you - it's not some unknowable length of time where we just have to "wait and see", it is one more week.


Edit: I also want to add, there is a real risk to "believe the photos until disproven", because there is research showing that people tend to calcify on issues even when they see them disproven. This is why the "Hillary's shady emails" and "Biden's international corruption" stories somehow still exist, even on this forum, because even if every attack is separately disproven, people retain the underlying attitude and emotion that they felt when they initially saw them. If you don't train yourself to restrain your emotional response to things until you can verify them, you will keep inching forward on "better things aren't possible" until you can't acknowledge a good thing when you see it. This is the danger of the social media outrage cycle, not that any particular lie will stand up in court or lead to concrete consequences, but that with enough time and lies to can create an "alternate truth" where people feel a certain way without any specific allegations or basis in fact. We had this discussion earlier about how candidates that drop out get an immediate boost in popularity as they stop getting attack ads targeted at them and people return to the mean. This is why we have so many people that view politics as two cohesive and undifferentiated teams, and so many people that thing both sides are equally bad, because they take all the things they've ever heard about "Dems" or "politicians" and use it to create opinions about people they know nothing about, and don't care to inform themselves about

Lester Shy posted:

Are you trying to tell me with a straight face that the people in these photos are more than six feet apart? This is not a funhouse optical illusion, it's too many people crammed in too small a space during a pandemic.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1373997915983777793/photo/2

BougieBitch posted:

I don't think that they are spaced 6 ft apart, but if you ask me "how many people would you need to remove from this picture for it to be safe distancing" I absolutely could not answer that and neither can you.

BougieBitch posted:

It's totally insufficient to make any claim about the severity of the problem or what steps need to be taken to resolve it, it's only useful to repeatedly shout "crisis at the border!" which is why it keeps getting reposted without adding any new information to the discussion

BougieBitch posted:

I don't think that they are spaced 6 ft apart, but if you ask me "how many people would you need to remove from this picture for it to be safe distancing" I absolutely could not answer that and neither can you. The photo is concerning, but completely insufficient in terms of describing a course to resolve it, because I don't know if these people are standing close together because they are family members traveling together in a group or because they are being forced to stand close together in order to gather up to receive supplies or because they aren't allowed to go in or out of the space contained within the barriers. It's totally insufficient to make any claim about the severity of the problem or what steps need to be taken to resolve it, it's only useful to repeatedly shout "crisis at the border!" which is why it keeps getting reposted without adding any new information to the discussion

Lester Shy posted:

Yes, I can. The answer is "all of them."


It's too bad we have to rely on whatever images get smuggled out of the concentration camps because the Biden administration won't give journalists and legal observers access. Seems like this is a problem they could fix immediately, yet they chose not to.

BougieBitch posted:

I HAVE said wait and see, but I explicitly said "wait and see for no longer than one week" either here or in the USPOL thread. In terms of what to hope for, we have this from this morning:
https://www.axios.com/senior-biden-officials-make-border-visit-4eb4c8ea-340b-466c-b3be-c252a7afd86f.html

Which, if you read the article and not just the headline, specifically includes letting congresspeople and a news camera in to view the facility, so you can literally just put a lid on this discussion for another day and then start it back up with video evidence, witness testimony, and maybe an interview with some of the people there.

In terms of the specific things that need to be fixed, the biggest one to be concerned with is the duration of processing. Right now, it is taking WAY too long to move people from the short-term facilities like the Donna site to longer-term facilities like the hotels that are being leased, and arguably also too long to go from the long-term facilities to actually getting their case heard. Those are the numbers I would be most concerned about, along with COVID rates in facilities (ideally looking at both intake and long-term numbers since there's ample reason to believe things on the Mexican side of the border are bad news in terms of keeping people safe). If we are consistently seeing stuff like the 10% positivity that has been thrown around with regards to the CBP facilities, I think we need to start moving towards having separate facilities or wings for COVID treatment so that people in poor health are able to get treatment quickly and the aid workers being sent by the Red Cross and the like are able to be put to good use. The last thing we want is for these facilities to look like some of the prisons and nursing homes where infection rates are in the mid-double-digits and it becomes impossible to allocate enough hospital beds due to a spike in cases.

In terms of immediate action, I think the admin needs to put out a fact sheet that lays out what all facilities exist, who runs them, and what their maximum safe capacity is, then give us daily updates on the numbers for the short-term ones and weekly updates on the numbers for the long-term ones in one place. On top of that, they need to have aggressive COVID testing, beyond just at intake, and they should be reaching out to Mexico to make sure the camps on the other side of the border are also getting tested and people are quarantining when they test positive. These should be things that can be done without congress, to my understanding, although I'm not entirely sure which department would need to ship the tests. There also have already been some overtures to Mexico about this, but I don't think the details have been finalized, or at least they weren't last time I checked.

BougieBitch posted:

All of them? Yikes, I thought we at least agreed that deporting literally all immigrants wasn't a valid solution, but I guess we really DO have no common ground!

BougieBitch posted:

the problem is that we have spent multiple pages litigating this particular photo when there are dozens of better non-photographic sources for discussion of the topic, which we were using in the pages prior to this particular photo set becoming the only thing that matters. We also will have actual photos from an actual press photographer in literally one day, which is why I am saying stop reposting these lovely, unsourced photo sets as a way to shut down all actual discussion about the situation in terms of policy and what can meaningfully be done.

sexpig by night posted:

also on topic is this a thread for all immigration or just southern border stuff? Because I have no clue where to post this but

https://twitter.com/USEmbassyHaiti/status/1374753568914292736

What the gently caress? I guess our official stance is a universal 'country's full'?

the 2016 lover posted:

The messaging from the Biden admin is clear (and very Trump-like): "The border is CLOSED"

Yinlock posted:

Why are you so insistent that the photo be ignored? You're the one litigating it's origin for multiple pages and deflecting and doing absolutely everything besides actually looking at it

BougieBitch posted:

Why are people posting single-line posts instead of making effort posts if this is something they care about? Do you think I didn't see it the first time? I did, I looked at it and say "yikes that's bad" and then we talked about why the conditions look like that and how the underlying problems might be solved. Then a day later a bunch of latecomers came in breathlessly posting the same tweet like it was new news, when they don't do the same about any other reporting on the issue. The problem is that you are making the posts without reading the thread and getting any additional context, without making any effort to present a thing to discuss. This is the Policy Megathread, it's not here for you to say "so do you think this photo is bad, C/D?" over and over again to every person willing to spend more than 10 seconds to make a response, if posting the photo is all you have to contribute to the conversation then you have no useful input. Make an effortpost with some sort of policy demands and some baseline thought put into how you could reasonably implement said policy and I'll respond to you with an equivalent amount of effort, but shooting off one-liners is not meeting effort with effort and reducing a thread about a massive problem affecting thousands and thousands of people into a back-and-forth about the validity of this single low-value source is ghoulish and completely insufficient to meet the huge problems that lie ahead in grappling with US immigration

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

joepinetree posted:

The particular lawsuit was an appeal of a 2017 decision. A 2017 decision asking for the enforcement of a 2015 lawsuit.

You can read about it here:

https://www.aila.org/File/Related/14111359v.pdf

So, just to make it perfectly clear, so that you fully understand what we are talking about, and decide whether it's really about "Trump's DHS."

In 2015, there was a lawsuit called Flores v Lynch. Lynch as in Loretta Lynch, Obama's AG. That lawsuit was about the unsanitary and unsafe conditions in detention centers, indefinite detention of children, and family separation, and how they violated the Flores settlement. The federal government lost the case and then appealed to the 9th circuit court of appeals. In that appeal, the case was reversed in part, affirmed in part. The part that was reversed was that the Obama administration successfully argued that that whole thing about sanitary conditions and no indefinite detention based on the Flores settlement did not apply to adults. So the Obama administration "won" the right to not provide sanitary and safe conditions to adults and to be able to hold them indefinitely. But they lost it with regards to both accompanied and unaccompanied minors.

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2016/07/06/15-56434.pdf

To be very clear, here is what the Obama administration had appealed:


So after the loss that said that the Obama administration could not hold children indefinitely in unsanitary conditions, the federal government did nothing to comply with the legal order. So the plaintiffs went to court again to ask the courts to enforce the decision. In October of 2016, the plaintiffs asked the courts to enforce the judgement. This was what was decided in 2017:

https://www.aila.org/File/Related/14111359v.pdf

Which said that, indeed, the government should follow the court decision. That is when the Trump administration appealed again to not have to comply with the 2015 decision.

So, again, just to make it very clear, when you say that "Trump's DHS went to court," what you are referring to is a legal case that started when a lawsuit was filed under Obama, who lost and appealed. They then lost part of the appeal, but did not comply with the decision, so the plaintiffs went to court again, still under Obama. The federal government lost, and then under Trump decided to appeal the enforcement decision.

Ruzihm posted:

what is inappropriate about responding to a gish gallop with a small reply to the weakest part of the argument?

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

I saw it, I'm still thinking about it and don't have a reply just yet.

Neurolimal posted:

Hello, I would appreciate it if you could respond to Joepinetree's excellent post in response to yours on the last page:


JPT makes a lot of great Immigration & Foreign Policy related posts that I feel don't receive the attention they duly deserve.

Crosby B. Alfred posted:

What's so wild about speculating when the photo in question is from a literal Republican propaganda outlet?

There are hundred examples of terrible things happening on the border that are even worse. Why pick this one?

sexpig by night posted:

also on topic is this a thread for all immigration or just southern border stuff? Because I have no clue where to post this but

https://twitter.com/USEmbassyHaiti/status/1374753568914292736

What the gently caress? I guess our official stance is a universal 'country's full'?