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Now I'm wondering if during tomorrow's presser Biden hands off border questions to Harris to answer.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:09 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 21:15 |
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the 2016 lover posted:Okay, any thoughts on the story, either the version in the link that was sent to me or the one you posted which you said is the same? Or angryposting into the void about posters? Why would I be angry at you? I just think it's hilarious that some folks are clearly following ultra-right wing news sites like Veritas and the Daily Heil rather than leftist ones(like the Guardian is...well center left), because you care more about owning the libs than accuracy. Just because they sometimes are right doesn't mean it's not dumb as gently caress for you to be doing. As for Kamala, she's a shithead who supports slavery and the rhetoric is indeed very bad. While at the same time, she's also being set up with a lovely job that will be a no-win for her and get her all the blame for decisions that were largely made by white men. This is a pretty common thing that most women and people of color who see this are going to be familiar with.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:09 |
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Jaxyon posted:Why would I be angry at you? I just think it's hilarious that some folks are clearly following ultra-right wing news sites like Veritas and the Daily Heil rather than leftist ones(like the Guardian is...well center left), because you care more about owning the libs than accuracy. Just because they sometimes are right doesn't mean it's not dumb as gently caress for you to be doing. So, just to be clear, you're not even mad and, in fact, you find it funny
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:11 |
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Jaxyon posted:Why would I be angry at you? I just think it's hilarious that some folks are clearly following ultra-right wing news sites like Veritas and the Daily Heil rather than leftist ones(like the Guardian is...well center left), because you care more about owning the libs than accuracy. Just because they sometimes are right doesn't mean it's not dumb as gently caress for you to be doing. I assume since you linked the guardian that means you love them and love their constant TERF poo poo then, since that's the only reason you'd link a source. Also I really don't get the point you're trying to make. She sucks and will do a bad job because she's a bad person...but also she's been set up to fail?
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:12 |
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the 2016 lover posted:So, just to be clear, you're not even mad and, in fact, you find it funny I'm mad about the border. I think you're funny because you linked the Daily Heil. I can see why you want to do some rhetorical shifting because I'm not a border apologist. Let me know how this works out for you. sexpig by night posted:I assume since you linked the guardian that means you love them and love their constant TERF poo poo then, since that's the only reason you'd link a source. I didn't know about their TERF history. I do now. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. That's entirely my mistake. I assume the Daily Mail is very progressive on trans issues? quote:Also I really don't get the point you're trying to make. She sucks and will do a bad job because she's a bad person...but also she's been set up to fail? Someone can be a bad person but also set up to take the fall for something. Do you think the glass cliff only hits good people? What you're saying is that she deserves it. Which she probably does. But that's not why Biden shifted it over to her. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Mar 24, 2021 |
# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:13 |
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Here's the Washington post covering the Kamala appointment. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/03/24/joe-biden-live-updates/ I didn't think I'd have to defend my stance that the Daily Mail is known nazi trash but here we are.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:21 |
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Jaxyon posted:I didn't know about their TERF history. I do now. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. That's entirely my mistake. No big deal, a lot of publications have murky histories and individuals can't be expected to be held responsible for everything they've ever put out when they're sharing breaking news.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:22 |
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Jaxyon posted:Here's the Washington post covering the Kamala appointment. the joke was that all these loving ghouls are evil and caring about The Bad Paper when it's reporting on something objectively true is really dumb, Jesus loving Christ I didn't actually give a poo poo about you posting another source, Biden announced it, we know it's true!
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:24 |
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also on topic is this a thread for all immigration or just southern border stuff? Because I have no clue where to post this but https://twitter.com/USEmbassyHaiti/status/1374753568914292736 What the gently caress? I guess our official stance is a universal 'country's full'?
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:27 |
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Sounds like Kamala's role is being billed as a diplomatic effort and not law enforcement, which is good. The Guardian posted:The president reiterated his commitment to tackling the underlying issues that are spurring migrants to flee their home countries. They're at least talking about addressing root causes. It'll be interesting to hear what they say at the presser. edit: the second part of the "don't come" messaging is "you'll apply for asylum where you are." They want to try and get our poo poo together at the border. I don't think the "apply for asylum in your home country" will work very well. If conditions are so bad you're willing to sell everything you own and make a dangerous trip to the US border, you don't have the option to just stay in place. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Mar 24, 2021 |
# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:28 |
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sexpig by night posted:the joke was that all these loving ghouls are evil and caring about The Bad Paper when it's reporting on something objectively true is really dumb, Jesus loving Christ I didn't actually give a poo poo about you posting another source, Biden announced it, we know it's true! The joke to me is that people are regularly reading completely unreliable far right trash to get a leg up on owning the libs, which allows innaccurate propaganda poo poo to filter into otherwise reasonable discourse. We've multiple times in many threads including USPol have had to derail into explaining why some made up poo poo is made up because it's being endlessly repeated in far-right sources and some don't seem to care as long as it makes "the libs" look bad, even if their personal politics is leftist. There are Bad News Sources, which also sometimes run accurate news. Fox News polling is actually fairly reliable. Should we then regularly be considering Fox a reliable source? No? Or should we acknowledge that there's some news sources that are pretty unreliable on a regular basis, even if they occasionally get the story right.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:30 |
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Fritz the Horse posted:Sounds like Kamala's role is being billed as a diplomatic effort and not law enforcement, which is good. again, though, the idea of this being a 'flow' issue is pure nationalist lies. The crossings are actually at most on par with where they usually are this time of year. This isn't an issue of numbers it's how we're loving treating them.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:31 |
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Jaxyon posted:The joke to me is that people are regularly reading completely unreliable far right trash to get a leg up on owning the libs, which allows innaccurate propaganda poo poo to filter into otherwise reasonable discourse. you're projecting so much on a twitter link holy gently caress go touch some grass or something this is wild even for D&D
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:32 |
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Lester Shy posted:This is an odd argument to make in the middle of a pandemic caused by an airborne virus. We've all gotten pretty adept at noticing when there are too many people crowded together in too small a space like you can clearly see in the photos. Okay, so are you going to address the argument about how you can tell how close or far apart people are based on the photos, cuz so far no one has made even a cursory attempt to explain how that is somehow more good or useful as evidence than actual numbers of people in detention in a particular place in comparison to the rated capacity under pandemic conditions. Eyeballing crowding based on where people are standing in a single snapshot is not useful or broadly indicative. The whole reason I linked to the article about news stories running wide-angle lens photos is because we have spent the whole past year seeing people do this exact thing, and when you add in the fact that "my inauguration was the biggest ever" was the first Trump admin lie I have no idea why people would ever trust a photo to be an accurate reflection of the distance between people. Don't settle for low-value evidence just because you don't have high-value evidence at hand, research and agitate for better reporting standards, more transparency from the admin, and then make a judgment once you have the facts rather than using incomplete evidence to draw low-certainty conclusions.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:36 |
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sexpig by night posted:you're projecting so much on a twitter link holy gently caress go touch some grass or something this is wild even for D&D "The paper known as the Daily Heil is maybe unreliable" Yeah man I am really loving out there
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:36 |
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Fritz the Horse posted:
the Haiti situation is especially disgusting for this rhetoric because the people fleeing right now are victims of a US backed dictator that's crushing any dissent so it's just straight up 'we hosed your country again, don't come here though' cruelty
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:37 |
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sexpig by night posted:the Haiti situation is especially disgusting for this rhetoric because the people fleeing right now are victims of a US backed dictator that's crushing any dissent so it's just straight up 'we hosed your country again, don't come here though' cruelty I mean, we did (and are doing) it to Latin America. That's just business as usual in the Global South.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:52 |
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BougieBitch posted:are you going to address the argument about how you can tell how close or far apart people are based on the photos Are you trying to tell me with a straight face that the people in these photos are more than six feet apart? This is not a funhouse optical illusion, it's too many people crammed in too small a space during a pandemic. https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/1373997915983777793/photo/2
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:52 |
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Insanite posted:I mean, we did (and are doing) it to Latin America. That's just business as usual in the Global South. yea true but at least with the southern border stuff you have the framing you see here of 'it's a tidal wave!' There's not anywhere near some big bunch of Haitian refugees 'straining' anywhere! It's just so needlessly petty to apply the 'country's closed gently caress off' doctrine to such a small group of people we hurt.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:55 |
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Lester Shy posted:Are you trying to tell me with a straight face that the people in these photos are more than six feet apart? This is not a funhouse optical illusion, it's too many people crammed in too small a space during a pandemic. This poster believes those photos were in some way staged to make Biden look bad BougieBitch posted:If we believe the assertions in the article that people within CBP staged the "migrants crossing the border" video then I really don't think it's a bridge too far to assume that the photos from inside the facility could be similarly staged- all it takes is some rear end in a top hat with a badge shouting at scared people that they need to gather up in a place and then snapping a quick photo of it. None of that is to excuse the existence of the facility in the first place, the resistance to letting press or elected officials into the space, or any of the other steps that led to this point, but the answer to the question of "would someone really stage something like this?" is a resounding "YES!", so trying to frame people asking for you to wait a day or two for a deeper dive on the photos (or for the questions at the Thursday conference) before you internalize the photos as the unassailable truth of the matter really is not that much to ask. They disbanded ACORN with similar bullshit, they have pulled like 5 similar scams with Planned Parenthood and such and got caught out doing it in the intervening years, there is absolutely NO reason to take the equivalent of a Fwd:Fwd:Fwd email as the truth.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 20:57 |
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Lester Shy posted:Are you trying to tell me with a straight face that the people in these photos are more than six feet apart? This is not a funhouse optical illusion, it's too many people crammed in too small a space during a pandemic. I don't think that they are spaced 6 ft apart, but if you ask me "how many people would you need to remove from this picture for it to be safe distancing" I absolutely could not answer that and neither can you. The photo is concerning, but completely insufficient in terms of describing a course to resolve it, because I don't know if these people are standing close together because they are family members traveling together in a group or because they are being forced to stand close together in order to gather up to receive supplies or because they aren't allowed to go in or out of the space contained within the barriers. It's totally insufficient to make any claim about the severity of the problem or what steps need to be taken to resolve it, it's only useful to repeatedly shout "crisis at the border!" which is why it keeps getting reposted without adding any new information to the discussion
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:07 |
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BougieBitch posted:I don't think that they are spaced 6 ft apart, but if you ask me "how many people would you need to remove from this picture for it to be safe distancing" I absolutely could not answer that and neither can you. Yes, I can. The answer is "all of them." BougieBitch posted:It's totally insufficient to make any claim about the severity of the problem or what steps need to be taken to resolve it, it's only useful to repeatedly shout "crisis at the border!" which is why it keeps getting reposted without adding any new information to the discussion It's too bad we have to rely on whatever images get smuggled out of the concentration camps because the Biden administration won't give journalists and legal observers access. Seems like this is a problem they could fix immediately, yet they chose not to.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:12 |
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BougieBitch posted:I don't think that they are spaced 6 ft apart, but if you ask me "how many people would you need to remove from this picture for it to be safe distancing" I absolutely could not answer that and neither can you. The photo is concerning, but completely insufficient in terms of describing a course to resolve it, because I don't know if these people are standing close together because they are family members traveling together in a group or because they are being forced to stand close together in order to gather up to receive supplies or because they aren't allowed to go in or out of the space contained within the barriers. It's totally insufficient to make any claim about the severity of the problem or what steps need to be taken to resolve it, it's only useful to repeatedly shout "crisis at the border!" which is why it keeps getting reposted without adding any new information to the discussion the answer is 'remove all of them', actually
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:24 |
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Lester Shy posted:Yes, I can. The answer is "all of them." All of them? Yikes, I thought we at least agreed that deporting literally all immigrants wasn't a valid solution, but I guess we really DO have no common ground! BougieBitch posted:I HAVE said wait and see, but I explicitly said "wait and see for no longer than one week" either here or in the USPOL thread. In terms of what to hope for, we have this from this morning: the problem is that we have spent multiple pages litigating this particular photo when there are dozens of better non-photographic sources for discussion of the topic, which we were using in the pages prior to this particular photo set becoming the only thing that matters. We also will have actual photos from an actual press photographer in literally one day, which is why I am saying stop reposting these lovely, unsourced photo sets as a way to shut down all actual discussion about the situation in terms of policy and what can meaningfully be done.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:26 |
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BougieBitch posted:All of them? Yikes, I thought we at least agreed that deporting literally all immigrants wasn't a valid solution, but I guess we really DO have no common ground! I like that you tried to own that person by revealing you think the only options are concentration camps or deportation.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:34 |
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BougieBitch posted:the problem is that we have spent multiple pages litigating this particular photo when there are dozens of better non-photographic sources for discussion of the topic, which we were using in the pages prior to this particular photo set becoming the only thing that matters. We also will have actual photos from an actual press photographer in literally one day, which is why I am saying stop reposting these lovely, unsourced photo sets as a way to shut down all actual discussion about the situation in terms of policy and what can meaningfully be done. Why are you so insistent that the photo be ignored? You're the one litigating it's origin for multiple pages and deflecting and doing absolutely everything besides actually looking at it
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:40 |
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sexpig by night posted:also on topic is this a thread for all immigration or just southern border stuff? Because I have no clue where to post this but The messaging from the Biden admin is clear (and very Trump-like): "The border is CLOSED"
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:47 |
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the 2016 lover posted:The messaging from the Biden admin is clear (and very Trump-like): "The border is CLOSED" "Country's full, gently caress off" but, like, said with a sad face so people think you care, I guess?
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:50 |
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Yinlock posted:Why are you so insistent that the photo be ignored? You're the one litigating it's origin for multiple pages and deflecting and doing absolutely everything besides actually looking at it Why are people posting single-line posts instead of making effort posts if this is something they care about? Do you think I didn't see it the first time? I did, I looked at it and say "yikes that's bad" and then we talked about why the conditions look like that and how the underlying problems might be solved. Then a day later a bunch of latecomers came in breathlessly posting the same tweet like it was new news, when they don't do the same about any other reporting on the issue. The problem is that you are making the posts without reading the thread and getting any additional context, without making any effort to present a thing to discuss. This is the Policy Megathread, it's not here for you to say "so do you think this photo is bad, C/D?" over and over again to every person willing to spend more than 10 seconds to make a response, if posting the photo is all you have to contribute to the conversation then you have no useful input. Make an effortpost with some sort of policy demands and some baseline thought put into how you could reasonably implement said policy and I'll respond to you with an equivalent amount of effort, but shooting off one-liners is not meeting effort with effort and reducing a thread about a massive problem affecting thousands and thousands of people into a back-and-forth about the validity of this single low-value source is ghoulish and completely insufficient to meet the huge problems that lie ahead in grappling with US immigration
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 21:59 |
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Sorry, are you claiming that your posts where you posit the photos of unsanitary overcrowding at the Donna facility are merely tricks of light and shadow are effortposts? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 22:01 |
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BougieBitch posted:Why are people posting single-line posts instead of making effort posts if this is something they care about? Do you think I didn't see it the first time? I did, I looked at it and say "yikes that's bad" and then we talked about why the conditions look like that and how the underlying problems might be solved. Then a day later a bunch of latecomers came in breathlessly posting the same tweet like it was new news, when they don't do the same about any other reporting on the issue. The problem is that you are making the posts without reading the thread and getting any additional context, without making any effort to present a thing to discuss. This is the Policy Megathread, it's not here for you to say "so do you think this photo is bad, C/D?" over and over again to every person willing to spend more than 10 seconds to make a response, if posting the photo is all you have to contribute to the conversation then you have no useful input. Make an effortpost with some sort of policy demands and some baseline thought put into how you could reasonably implement said policy and I'll respond to you with an equivalent amount of effort, but shooting off one-liners is not meeting effort with effort and reducing a thread about a massive problem affecting thousands and thousands of people into a back-and-forth about the validity of this single low-value source is ghoulish and completely insufficient to meet the huge problems that lie ahead in grappling with US immigration A post's quality and correctness are not determined solely by it's length. People are responding in single lines because you're doing everything possible to discredit the photo with wild speculation that is so easily debunked that it can be done in a single line.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 22:04 |
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What's so wild about speculating when the photo in question is from a literal Republican propaganda outlet? There are hundred examples of terrible things happening on the border that are even worse. Why pick this one?
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 22:06 |
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Hello, I would appreciate it if you could respond to Joepinetree's excellent post in response to yours on the last page: joepinetree posted:The particular lawsuit was an appeal of a 2017 decision. A 2017 decision asking for the enforcement of a 2015 lawsuit. JPT makes a lot of great Immigration & Foreign Policy related posts that I feel don't receive the attention they duly deserve.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 22:13 |
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I saw it, I'm still thinking about it and don't have a reply just yet.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 22:20 |
what is inappropriate about responding to a gish gallop with a small reply to the weakest part of the argument?
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 22:27 |
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Ruzihm posted:what is inappropriate about responding to a gish gallop with a small reply to the weakest part of the argument? apparently you can just say some absolute qanon level insane poo poo but if you surround it in five paragraphs of hemming and hawing over nothing nobody can go 'wait did you just say the cubes only LOOK cramped because of some kind of crazy optical illusion effect?' Crosby B. Alfred posted:I saw it, I'm still thinking about it and don't have a reply just yet. big things coming! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 22:40 |
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Neurolimal posted:Hello, I would appreciate it if you could respond to Joepinetree's excellent post in response to yours on the last page: I think the Obama admin sucked balls on immigration in particular and the holding that standards can't be applied to adults is a total miscarriage of justice. I think the points in that article are self-evidently bad, but they become much worse if CBP tries to apply them to the present day, where poor hygiene runs the risk of being directly fatal, even for what would have been relatively minor breaches before the pandemic. I think if the Biden admin defends the previous admin positions in court it will be directly traceable to some number of deaths in custody. One big concern I have, however, is that Biden will be too restrained in the number of people allowed over the border. For as bad as the conditions in the temp facility are, people are still choosing to go there and send their kids there over staying in the camps in Mexico or "applying from their home countries", which has been rightly derided as a terrible statement to put out for refugees. In this situation there is an actual concern about "perfect being the enemy of good" that (in my opinion) does not actually apply that often in terms of government programs. Right now, there's a very real risk that if we don't increase the speed that we are processing refugees we could leave many languishing in the Mexican camps that we have even less ability to regulate or evaluate. If our choices right now are, for instance, to shut down the Donna facility and process 1000 refugees a day or to leave it open and process 1200, I don't think it's clear-cut which is the better option with the information we have available. To some extent, it is the fault of the admin for not giving us a clearer view of the conditions in the camps, which look to be on the level of "people staying in shelters after losing their homes to hurricanes". But to some extent there are questions that we can't actually answer yet, like "how long will it be until the longer-term facilities like the Dallas convention center open to full capacity" and "what is the actual incidence rate of COVID in the Mexican camps and how many people can you admit to American camps before it reaches a similar level". In order to have a real assessment of the harm reduction of moving refugees from the Mexican sites to the CBP sites to the HHS sites we need to know or make educated guesses about these things, and due to the turnaround time on COVID testing and the beginning of the symptomatic phase, we probably won't be able to even guess at it until more time passes. This doesn't mean we can't take certain actions now based on what we DO know, but I think reasonable people can disagree about whether keeping the Donna camp open or shutting it down (no further people added as current ones leave, which would probably mean it's empty in a week) is better in terms of the impact on refugees, especially as more HHS facilities open up and the wait time to get out of the CBP facilities goes back down towards acceptable levels Edit: I'm also willing to revise my opinions once we get the reporting out of the facilities tour happening soon, if it turns out that the HHS sites AREN'T the improvement that they ought to be. Since those are intended to be for stays of a month or more, if they aren't at least as good as motel rooms then it is a total failure. We know that there are contracts with some hotels to lease their rooms, so at least in terms of baseline amenities that ought to be acceptable (so long as they aren't doing anything stupid like trying to fit multiple families in one room), but I think the sites like the convention centers are a lot more up in the air. The fact that they were moving the teens there in groups of roughly 200 per day makes me hopeful that they aren't doing a complete rush job on them, but if we don't have at least some kind of privacy barrier between the living spaces them that's obviously hosed, and I do also worry about how they plan to manage access to showers, education, etc. BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Mar 24, 2021 |
# ? Mar 24, 2021 22:42 |
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:What's so wild about speculating when the photo in question is from a literal Republican propaganda outlet? I could just as easily speculate that a right-wing rag is the only place that would actually accept that photo in an overwhelmingly biden-friendly media environment, but that would get us nowhere. Also there being hundreds of examples is only further proof as to the photo's validity. If it's not even the worst thing we've seen from this, why is it so important that it be discredited?
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 23:07 |
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sexpig by night posted:also on topic is this a thread for all immigration or just southern border stuff? Because I have no clue where to post this but It is not safe for them to stay there, so asking them to apply from there is just asinine.
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# ? Mar 24, 2021 23:35 |
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# ? Jun 6, 2024 21:15 |
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Good thread from Omar Jadwat, head of the ACLU Immigrants' Rights Project. https://twitter.com/OmarJadwat/status/1375113071782465543
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# ? Mar 25, 2021 18:34 |