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Look I want China to be a socialist utopia haven country as much as the next person I want desperately for the world to be able to see there is an alternative to the horrors that are inflicted by capitalism I just don't see the value in getting there by covering for new fresh horrors that are being performed in the name of communism that seems to defeat the purpose
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Mar 26, 2021 01:56
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that someone can balk at the idea of war between china and the US, that being proxy wars or otherwise, really displays a lack of historical knowledge (this has already happened twice between china and the US, and killed untold millions) and also an incredible faith in the leadership of a declining imperial power to not do insanely stupid brinksmanship. keep in mind how god awful and lead brained the leadership of the US is
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Mar 26, 2021 01:56
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Throatwarbler posted:Hey guys as a former resident of the XUAR and one with close family ties to the region, I just want to point out that there are no restrictions on travel or tourism to any area in Xinjiang. All the arguments here about whether this or that mosque was demolished or whether this or that building is this or that seem very dumb to me because someone could just...walk over there and check it out? It's like people in China who have never read a thing about America having some drawn out debate over the American genocide in Baltimore, MD based on images from Google Earth, because Baltimore, MD is a black hole of information? Wait, is China actually letting Americans travel there right now?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:57
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Because if the argument is anything other than "the state department is making everything up" then I would argue the ball is still in China's court to stop whatever it is that is being done in the same way the rest of the world should rightfully poo poo on the US until we unfuck our border and our childhood poverty and homelessness and police violence Does "rightfully making GBS threads on" include economic sanctions against China? What about military action? Same for the US on both counts?
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Mar 26, 2021 01:57
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Admiral Ray posted:Wait, is China actually letting Americans travel there right now? if you get a china approved vaccine lol
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Mar 26, 2021 01:57
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yeah the entire reason its important to be specific AND important to understand this in context with what the US is currently doing at the border is that the intent of a lot of this reporting and discourse is to imply that China is doing something uniquely, singularly evil. To go "well every country is doing some wrong stuff, but thats beyond the pale," because it means that any action can be justified if its tied to "opposing china." its the creation of an unassailable moral high ground If China is doing the same evil poo poo we're doing, then it raises the question "Why isn't the us air force using their f35s to do tactical strikes on DHS buildings instead?" honestly it doesn't matter what I think about china, but I live and vote in america. so I care about what the country I live in does. and caring about this propaganda rises from that.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:58
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The Oldest Man posted:Does "rightfully making GBS threads on" include economic sanctions against China? What about military action? Same for the US on both counts? I mean... yeah. In an ideal world the UN would be sanctioning the US for our human rights abuses. They never will because... all the reasons but that's kinda the charter we signed on to and the prescribed remedy for violating it.
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Mar 26, 2021 01:59
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:So is the argument that any allegations of mistreatment are State Department fabrications or that there is no forcible re-education or what Varinn posted:conflating criticisms of the reporting with defenses of the thing being reported on isn't really helpful you said you thought this was a good point, too lol. saying that reporting is done with intent is not saying "its all fabrications"
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Mar 26, 2021 02:00
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:I mean... yeah. In an ideal world the UN would be sanctioning the US for our human rights abuses. I'm not asking about an ideal world. I am asking do you, right now, support intervention by the US government against China to include economic sanctions and/or military action and do you support intervention by other world governments including China against the US to include economic sanctions and/or military action?
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Mar 26, 2021 02:00
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Raskolnikov38 posted:THS's point, to me at least, is that we're in the bombarding american public with just asking question stage
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Mar 26, 2021 02:00
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THS posted:if you get a china approved vaccine lol is it only sinovac and sinopharm or do they let you in if have sputnik
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Mar 26, 2021 02:00
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Varinn posted:people have posted zenz's work in this thread lmao wtf People haven't, I have. That's where people in this thread said the biggest problems with any claims were and I never actually looked at his stuff too closely because he's a crazy person, but for claims like this I like being able to say exactly why they're wrong or not. Also, I had a lot of time to try to find the CCP's statistics yearbooks online only to fail because they require you to have a research account with them or something. Admiral Ray has issued a correction as of 02:04 on Mar 26, 2021 |
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Mar 26, 2021 02:01
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one has to consider taiwan, HK, xinjiang, trade wars and tariffs, covid, and general racism - all this considered as a whole - along with the sensationalist media propaganda and aggressive tenor of reactions among the american public. all of this together, with the US as a declining and anxious superpower, paints a larger picture of increasing tensions with no real release that doesn’t result in war. also a military that is currently building up a new missile system surrounding china and absolutely chomping at the bit for that cold war money. that is my primary concern saying “well they are trade partners” is not the fait accompli you think it is. major trade partners have gone to war before
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Mar 26, 2021 02:02
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The Oldest Man posted:I'm not asking about an ideal world. I am asking do you, right now, support intervention by the US government against China to include economic sanctions and/or military action and do you support intervention by other world governments including China against the US to include economic sanctions and/or military action? No, I don't think I could support military intervention but I think sanctions would be justifiable, especially if they were aimed to specifically harm the political class.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:03
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Raskolnikov38 posted:is it only sinovac and sinopharm or do they let you in if have sputnik I'm pretty sure just sinovac and sinopharm, when I read it originally the language was something like 'china approved produced in China vaccine'
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Mar 26, 2021 02:04
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gotta tap the chomsky quote sign againquote:“My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one’s actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century.”
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Mar 26, 2021 02:05
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THS posted:one has to consider taiwan, HK, xinjiang, trade wars and tariffs, covid, and general racism - all this considered as a whole - along with the sensationalist media propaganda and aggressive tenor of reactions among the american public. all of this together, with the US as a declining and anxious superpower, paints a larger picture of increasing tensions with no real release that doesn’t result in war. also a military that is currently building up a new missile system surrounding china and absolutely chomping at the bit for that cold war money. that is my primary concern
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Mar 26, 2021 02:05
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Dolphin posted:can you think of another time a superpower sabotaged its own supply chain over anxiety? The 2016 election
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Mar 26, 2021 02:06
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Dolphin posted:can you think of another time a superpower sabotaged its own supply chain over anxiety? Germany, 1914
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Mar 26, 2021 02:06
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Admiral Ray posted:I would agree, but I've seen the same rebuttal done again and again (not here, but elsewhere). This is one of the few things that is easily checked because the statistics Zenz used aren't free to the public (which, imo, makes his claims weaker since he could have at least provided a loving table). If that Chinadaily article didn't post the actual scanned page from the Health and Hygiene Statistics Yearbook I never would have even been able to check the math. After having taken some time to think about it, I am increasingly convinced that the reason China Daily refuted an imagined claim about raw number of IUDs added, rather than the actual claim about net number of IUDs added, is that "net IUDs added" is an insane statistic which communicates nothing. The people getting IUDs are different from the people removing IUDs! There might be a lot of young people entering the workforce who want to put off childbirth while, at the same time, the fact that IUDs weren't in widespread use prior (due to poverty, medical access, culture, whatever) means that there's no matching cohort of aging people who either feel ready to have children or who simply no longer have the need to bother. An article linked a few pages ago goes into the statistic in a little more depth: https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-genocide-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/ quote:When Zenz attempted to defend himself against accusations of cooking statistics on birth control surgeries in Xinjiang, he ultimately cast further doubt on the quality of his research. Responding to a Chinese academic critic, he claimed that he had calculated Xinjiang’s 239,457 new net IUD insertions (devices added minus those removed) as 80% of the national total in 2018. The bolding is mine (it's italics in the article); I want to draw attention to it because I think the weird "per capita" graph you post is actually Zenz's, not China's. As I say, I think that article is being too kind to Zenz because net insertions is, itself, a statistic of practically no utility; he's clearly gesturing at it and trying to get us to think that it indicates some sort of reproductive crackdown, but even a few moments' thought reveals that positive, neutral, or negative "net insertions" could all be associated with increased reproductive freedom or increased reproductive repression in different ways. This is why I don't trust Zenz, and neither should you; he uses really-existing numbers, but tries to bullshit you about their implications. This is classic Victims of Communism fare; for example, in the course of totaling people killed by Stalin, they include the difference between Ukrainians born before the famine and after the famine, as though each potential person not conceived was actually a casualty of the Soviet state. Agenda first, numbers second.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:08
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:No, I don't think I could support military intervention but I think sanctions would be justifiable, especially if they were aimed to specifically harm the political class. Presuming you mean individually targeted rather than broad-based economic sanctions - so you would support, for example, China colluding with European powers to prohibit travel and freeze or seize overseas assets of Joe Biden or Alejandro Mayorkas to exert pressure on the US government for the concentration camps the US is operating? Because that's the direct equivalent to sanctioning CCP officials with financial restrictions.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:08
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Dolphin posted:if the us wanted to go to war with China we would have actually just invented poo poo about covid, that was the best opportunity not mistreatment of muslims Here's the head of Human Rights Watch pushing the lab escape theory https://twitter.com/KenRoth/status/1368941447156817923?s=20
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Mar 26, 2021 02:08
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someone ask me if I'd support sanctions on like the entire trump family, cheney, erik prince, bush, hell half of the obama admin, rumsfeld, wolfowitz and so on and if I'd think they'd lead to the US feeling less entitled to be a huge bully on the world stage I promise I will be owned by the question
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Mar 26, 2021 02:08
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Dolphin posted:can you think of another time a superpower sabotaged its own supply chain over anxiety? world war 1. if you want exact analogies or 1:1 examples, you won’t get them, because history doesn’t repeat in exact ways: there has never been a superpower like the US, and there has never been this precise relationship with an increasingly hostile relationship with a competitor in 2021. i do not have faith that states cannot act long term, act rationally, or not shoot itself in the balls and end up killing millions
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Mar 26, 2021 02:09
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:No, I don't think I could support military intervention but I think sanctions would be justifiable, especially if they were aimed to specifically harm the political class. sanctions are a form of violence. look at iraq post gulf war. america is throwing stones in glass houses and it is able to do so because it is run by people who want to destroy the rest of the world so it can continue to consume endlessly
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Mar 26, 2021 02:09
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Dolphin posted:can you think of another time a superpower sabotaged its own supply chain over anxiety? england, whenever the gently caress the original brexit vote was holy Christ that was forever ago
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Mar 26, 2021 02:09
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i dunno how you look at the last 5 years of politics and conclude the US will not constantly do colossal fuckups against its own interest that end with mass death. i promise you that as we decline relative to china it will get worse.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:11
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imperial Japan in the 30s
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Mar 26, 2021 02:12
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Germany, 1914
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Mar 26, 2021 02:12
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The Oldest Man posted:Presuming you mean individually targeted rather than broad-based economic sanctions - so you would support, for example, China colluding with European powers to prohibit travel and freeze or seize overseas assets of Joe Biden or Alejandro Mayorkas to exert pressure on the US government for the concentration camps the US is operating? Because that's the direct equivalent to sanctioning CCP officials with financial restrictions. Obviously it would against the US national interest for that to happen, but like I said, the US signed on to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights so any country invoking that to sanction officials would be well within their rights to do so even though it would likely end badly for all parties involved. From a purely philosophical perspective yeah, that'd absolutely be just and warranted and fair. In reality, because the US has so much sway over the UN, I feel like it'd end very poorly for any country trying to make that sort of move unless they somehow got a gently caress ton of global support for the actions. I think a world where China was such a country that they had the standing to call out our offenses would be better for us and the world in the long run though.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:12
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:No, I don't think I could support military intervention but I think sanctions would be justifiable, especially if they were aimed to specifically harm the political class. How it actually works isn't as promised: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbIX1CP9qr4
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Mar 26, 2021 02:13
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Raskolnikov38 posted:england, whenever the gently caress the original brexit vote was holy Christ that was forever ago
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Mar 26, 2021 02:13
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Raskolnikov38 posted:so just to summarize before i gently caress off to make lunch and play video games yeah correct
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Mar 26, 2021 02:13
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stretching the definition of superpower but the confederate states
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Mar 26, 2021 02:14
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i mean they are already trying for sanctions https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/65
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Mar 26, 2021 02:14
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Raskolnikov38 posted:stretching the definition of superpower but the confederate states
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Mar 26, 2021 02:14
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Given the general concentration of islamic extremists (which typically represent ~.5% or less of the total population of the roughly 1.5 billion muslims) I am deeply skeptical that there are enough of them to be anywhere even remotely proportional to the scale of the effort mounted against them. I'm not sure it was worth the effort to liberate Mosul or Aleppo, but that was a choice best left up to the Iraqis and Syrians respectively.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:15
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Napoleon and the continental system
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Mar 26, 2021 02:16
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Napoleon and the continental system
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Mar 26, 2021 02:16
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Shipon posted:sanctions are a form of violence. look at iraq post gulf war. National-scale sanctions are absolutely horrific and should be roundly illegal under international law. idk about sanctioning a handful of administration officials that are explicitly complicit. historically those have been fairly effective at creating pressure and I've never seen really any case made for those causing significant (or even really any?) collateral damage.
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Mar 26, 2021 02:17
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