|
Tulip posted:Last piece of news about Humankind is the release date is now August. Well now I gotta know. Just what is provoking so strong a reaction?
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 14:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 08:04 |
|
|
Tulip posted:Last piece of news about Humankind is the release date is now August.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 14:22
|
|
|
Eschatos posted:Well now I gotta know. Just what is provoking so strong a reaction? So unless I'm badly misunderstanding Humankind's pitch, and ARM above actually played it so if I'm WILDLY off base on this part let me know: As it has been told to me, in Humankind you control a boardgame style polity that over time grafts real world cultures onto itself, those cultures providing material benefits intrinsically linked to their culture. For my own part: my principle training was in sociology with a healthy dose of anthropology & history, and while I'm no longer in academia a lot of that stuff is pretty etched into me. It has...always rubbed me the wrong way to have the sort of fixed, innate link between "a culture" and some set of material bonuses. Every time I have dug into the history of a culture, the story has turned out to be incredibly rich and complex and never at all coherent with like, "they're just good at farming" or "they were always more pious than their neighbors." For a game that takes place in a narrow snapshot like Shogun Total War or Wargame, it's less odious due to the short time frame and specific dig, but the more broad the frame of the game the more it bugs me. "From humble origins as a Neolithic tribe, transition to the Ancient Era as the Babylonians, become the Classical era Mayans, the Medieval Umayyads, the Early Modern era British, and so on. " from their store page just fills me with this deep concern about what awful stereotype they're going to push about, say, the Maya (who still exist! there's about 7 million!). While that kind of thing is broadly true of a lot of historic strategy games (including ones I'm very fond of, like Rise of Nations), it's been increasingly grating to me and part of why I've come to massively prefer the Endless series to a lot of their competitors. And this is not something that I necessarily understand about myself but for some reason the particular variation that Humankind is going for bugs me more. The deracination of slices of a culture, the discontinuity, really just makes me uncomfortable in a way that I don't think I really have intellectual arguments for.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 15:08
|
|
|
When I was a kid and launched Civilization 1 I was blown away by how big the history of the world is. Just imagine, fro all this time life changed for millions of people, there were great empires I have never heard of. Then I was blown away but Europe Universalis 2 detailed map explaining me what exactly is HRE, or Rome Total War showing huge marching armies up close. Nowadays I look at Total War and feel repulsed by misrepresentation of ancient combat. And the scale is so off! Europa Universalis simplifies so much and presents tribes and bueracratic empires as extremely similar entities, giving countries some sort of "ideas" that insist on England being a naval power even if it conquers half of Europe and is content on staying home. And Civilization... Well, you know. It has always pushing the idea that no matter what are your roots, every civilization could walk the path of becoming USA. Humankind is weird. I too see it as a robot trying to implement multiculturalism idea. Not sure it will bother me in the game itself. But your explanation is certainly interesting.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 15:19
|
|
|
For me it's not even those implications but rather that I think building your bonuses in game is just going to be really boring and turn everything into a samey slurry. Like at least in civ when I decide to play as Babylon my game is going to be quite different from if I played as China or whatever, but here? I don't even know what I'll be and how would I ever really get a sense of uniqueness either in myself or my opponent. Especially when Amplitude is so good at designing unique factions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 15:28
|
|
|
Even more worrying is interacting with other empires. EL/ES2 were one of the few 4X games where you care about your neighbors. But how are you going to deduce personalities from a faction that is Babylonian-Pict-English-Thai or whatever? And here's a brand new feature video about diplomacy that tries to answer that question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8wq26ci3ns
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 15:48
|
|
|
ilitarist posted:When I was a kid and launched Civilization 1 I was blown away by how big the history of the world is. Just imagine, fro all this time life changed for millions of people, there were great empires I have never heard of. Then I was blown away but Europe Universalis 2 detailed map explaining me what exactly is HRE, or Rome Total War showing huge marching armies up close. Nowadays I look at Total War and feel repulsed by misrepresentation of ancient combat. And the scale is so off! Europa Universalis simplifies so much and presents tribes and bueracratic empires as extremely similar entities, giving countries some sort of "ideas" that insist on England being a naval power even if it conquers half of Europe and is content on staying home. And Civilization... Well, you know. It has always pushing the idea that no matter what are your roots, every civilization could walk the path of becoming USA. Yeah I've had a similar evolution, though for me it was Age of Empires 1 where I got completely lost in the manual, reading up their little two page summaries of the Hittites and Shang. I still adore the art for the game, the stone age town center is legitimately one of my favorite art assets from any video game. But now the flatness of it feels so off to me. The things I really love about studying the past, the incredible alien texture that only becomes more complex and intricate as you dig deeper, is something basically no game ever does justice to (well, maybe King of Dragon Pass/Six Ages, but those are HIGH fantasy). And so far nearly every game has nestled awkwardly on the issue of contingency. Like you said - England just "is" a naval power in EU, even if you neglect your navy for generations. This rests on the idea that England's naval power in the early modern was not contingent on historical events, but was a supra-historic attribute, even in the midst of a game that exists to explore contingency. If the Spanish obliterate the English navy, the English still chant about ra ra rule the waves. Of course the game that probably did the most to try to explore this kind of contingent development gameplay would be, I guess, Beyond Earth. And...didn't pan out so well.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 15:57
|
|
|
Personally I just find historical games more boring. I want to smash spaceships and dragons against one another. Not Yet Another Game With Rome.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 15:59
|
|
|
Rhjamiz posted:Personally I just find historical games more boring. I want to smash spaceships and dragons against one another. Not Yet Another Game With Rome. And this is why Total Warhammer is perfect because there are Aztec Dinosaurs who ride other bigger Dinosaurs and also fight like Romans. On dinosaurs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 17:03
|
|
|
Eimi posted:And this is why Total Warhammer is perfect because there are Aztec Dinosaurs who ride other bigger Dinosaurs and also fight like Romans. On dinosaurs. It really is the perfect game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 17:17
|
|
|
Eimi posted:And this is why Total Warhammer is perfect because there are Aztec Dinosaurs who ride other bigger Dinosaurs and also fight like Romans. On dinosaurs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 17:18
|
|
|
My love of history also started with the first Age of Empires. As I read more books on my favourite events and cultures, I quickly realized that the campaigns in games like AoE2 or Total War are huge oversimplifications or abstractions of what is known. I think that, as long as their portrayal is not malicious, games like those can help people get more invested in learning about others and feel appreciated when some culture that they identify with is represented.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 22:02
|
|
|
wologar posted:My love of history also started with the first Age of Empires. As I read more books on my favourite events and cultures, I quickly realized that the campaigns in games like AoE2 or Total War are huge oversimplifications or abstractions of what is known. Ahh, the AoE2 Mongols campagin. "Behold, the horde of Genghis Khan approaches!" (3 horse archers and 2 camels appear.) I agree, though- games are magic for getting people into history. As long as we continue learning and searching, it's all good.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 23:16
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Obligatory "Hola, Skinks" and "Dropping rocks, screaming" "WELCOME TO ESTALIA, GENTLEMEN."
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2021 23:51
|
|
|
Tree Bucket posted:Ahh, the AoE2 Mongols campagin. "Behold, the horde of Genghis Khan approaches!" (3 horse archers and 2 camels appear.) Admittedly my objections so far are mostly on matters of taste, I think it's worth being a little more critical. Partially because like 90% of studying history is criticizing. Some of why it's worth being critical is because some games are very badly researched and it's worth at least laughing at. I remember the official AOE2 strategy guide had an interview with a designer, who nearly shipped the game before a member from the Japan team pointed out that the scenario they had to represent the Sengoku Jidai made no sense: the plan (that was amended before shipping) was that you'd be rescuing a captured Oda Nobunaga. But, like nearly all members of his caste at that time, Oda committed suicide when capture was imminent. In Oda's case it was very famous, involving betrayal and burning down a temple! I know Wikipedia didn't exist but it's like one of the first things you learn about the guy. But to be a bit more serious, it matters that a lot of the groups that get flattened into often pretty bad stereotypes are still alive today. Mongolia's a sovereign country, for example. And we're probably a few years out from it but we could very well have a president who grew up on these games, and we've almost certainly had executive and congressional aides who did. Classic Westerns often had awful portrayals of Comanche and other native groups, and the people who grew up on those movies included a lot of very powerful people.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2021 01:58
|
|
|
Tulip posted:we could very well have a president who grew up on these games Only if they stop suppressing voter turnout for Ace Watkins
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2021 03:01
|
|
|
A mini-DLC for both Legend and Space 2 drops today. EL also integrates some of the EL Community Patch. Little hope ES2 will become more interesting, but EL probably deserves a couple more runs.
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 06:20
|
|
|
What are the dlcs?
|
|
#
?
May 6, 2021 19:46
|
|
|
Seems like a big series of connected quests. Nothing huge, but more of anything Endless Legend is very welcome. Does anyone have any tips for the Mykara? I've just started a game and it feels a bit slow. I take it I am supposed to heavily focus on Food and sending fungal blooms all over the land?
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 21:11
|
|
|
I am always down for EL. Gimme more of that stuff. Need to do another play through with something not Necros. Roving Clans or Moths or Forgotten maybe.
|
|
#
?
May 7, 2021 21:56
|
|
|
mitochondritom posted:Seems like a big series of connected quests. Nothing huge, but more of anything Endless Legend is very welcome. Food, and I think I heavily focused on recruiting villages. The armies you can build up are pretty nuts.
|
|
#
?
May 8, 2021 01:25
|
|
|
https://youtu.be/hYcMJ_VrWNs Congrats Auriga. You're 10!
|
|
#
?
May 11, 2021 10:18
|
|
|
This thread almost ended  Been dinking around in EL and ES2 lately, hoping endless dungeon and humankind turn out well
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2021 15:45
|
|
|
victrix posted:This thread almost ended I think the 'trouble' is that it's a 4X series that can be consumed and set aside; people will play Civ all day every day, and Stellaris-enjoyers have brain worms, but by the time you've won with every faction there's not enough oomf to go back and do it again. This is mostly due to the weak AI, but looking at Civ there might be some other magic missing. Maybe it's just a player-base thing due to brand recognition, not enough chatty newbies or whatever. ------ I picked up the EL Community Patch, and a few more recent DLCs, the volcanic and fungus ones. Volcano people where dull in fluff but interesting as a play concept, militarized but poorly suited to stealing other people's cities, kinda like Hisso but less extreme. Their questline/plot didn't go anywhere and I didn't finish the game since I was on a huge map and the ELCP made the other AIs less anemic. Should probably do the fungus guys and see if that's different enough to keep interest. Even with the ELPC changes I found myself buying the same techs again and again, even acidentally taking a tech lead with peaceful trading which was unintentional. Balance issues the game still has, oh well.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2021 00:55
|
|
|
As much as I love EL I find the end game to be a horrific slog like most 4X games. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2021 01:44
|
|
|
Flipswitch posted:As much as I love EL I find the end game to be a horrific slog like most 4X games. The 4x genre is in an awful place and has been for a long time ... but that's another thread and a much longer post
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2021 01:47
|
|
|
Yeah was thinking of posting about it in the 4x thread but didn't have the energy lmao. The writing and art keeps me occupied in the Endless games at least. They're good games I just wish they'd take some bolder steps maybe?
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2021 01:53
|
|
|
Serephina posted:I think the 'trouble' is that it's a 4X series that can be consumed and set aside; people will play Civ all day every day, and Stellaris-enjoyers have brain worms, but by the time you've won with every faction there's not enough oomf to go back and do it again. This is mostly due to the weak AI, but looking at Civ there might be some other magic missing. Maybe it's just a player-base thing due to brand recognition, not enough chatty newbies or whatever. Civ has many more factions even if the differences are minimal. And it has, like, more stuff in it. Taking Theocratic government this time and using some policies you haven't touched previously might feel worthy of a new session. Playing Drakken and getting deep into the military might be very different mechanically, but you don't get anything from it in terms of narrative. Also, Civ AI might be bad but the difficulty balance means that you actually have to make some effort to win on higher difficulty settings. You'll be swarmed by enemy armies. Y'all have to try Old World. And if you're more grand strategy inclined - Field of Glory Empires. Those games have good ideas about late-game boredom. Basically, both allow you to win by getting double the amount of "victory points" than any other contender. Humankind has the same idea from what I understand.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2021 08:11
|
|
|
exactly why i play smaller maps, faster game speed, lots of ai
|
|
#
?
Jul 30, 2021 21:19
|
|
|
You might not know it but the best Endless game (Dungeon of the Endless) is on mobile. At the moment Android version is on sale.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2021 05:48
|
|
|
So, I am trying for the second time (maybe third time) to play EL. I'm playing with no expansions (it's possible I have one or two cosmetic-ish things but none of the major expansions) and I'm using the Drakken. I'm playing on super easy mode so I'm doing just fine, I have taken over my little continent, killed the only rival faction and assimilated and/or subjugated all the minor ones, and I have quite a homey little empire that is absolutely loaded. I'm going through the Drakken quest just fine, but now they want me to take over a city that is on the other side of the planet for some reason (against a faction that I have not come in contact with, although since I'm Drakken I've always been able to negotiate with them). And try as I might, I cannot figure out how to make any sort of naval unit. I have researched Shipyards and Cargo Docks and I have docks on three different cities now. Shipyard very clearly says "Unlocks ships (travel on water) on empire" but, like, I can't build anything that has anything to do with the ocean other than Cargo Docks, and those don't give me any new options. What am I missing here?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2021 21:58
|
|
|
You need the shipyard tech from era 1 or 2. After that you just move units on water to turn them into transport ships. There's no naval combat without one of the expansions. Docks let you switch to transports without losing your turn so it's a very useful tech.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2021 22:08
|
|
|
So I just... walk into the water? I guess that's why they made an ocean-based expansion.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2021 22:20
|
|
|
All units carrying their own canoes in a 4X (or RTS) game sounds like a cop-out, until you try to go back and play one of the older titles and realize you don't miss how fiddly everything is. Apparently it's also quite a hard thing to write a good AI script for, according to the civ4 lead dev. Transport units have their place in stuff like Starcraft and Command & Conqueor, but when I first saw auto-canoes in Rise of Nations I was like "oh thank god".
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 00:32
|
|
|
Rise of nations is such a king and one of those things i really like is that, even without having to fiddle with stupid AOE transport ships, contested naval landings are extremely dangerous and deadly. AIs are also famously terrible at navigating multidimensional spaces, and the more variables go into evaluating a transit route that includes potential counterplay, the worse they get, which is part of why movement bonuses in 4Xs tend to shatter AIs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 00:54
|
|
|
When the game is about managing a whole civilization I don't consider people managing their own transport to be a cop-out. Also all quest lines require you to go half the world away. This way you can't turtle and get a sneaky win.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2021 06:16
|
|
|
Are there any good mods for Endless Space? I love the combat system in there and watching the battles unfurl, and I can't stand that they limited that vibe in ES2
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 03:45
|
|
|
What are you trying to change exactly?
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 04:19
|
|
|
Serephina posted:What are you trying to change exactly? I'm just trying to add more stuff I suppose. Ive tried endless space 2 a bunch over the years and just can't vibe. I've probably beaten ES with every species at least twice and I'm getting the itch again. I think the thing that draws me in the most is the combat in ES1, it has extreme Battlestar Galactica vibez
|
|
#
?
Oct 13, 2021 04:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 08:04 |
|
|
Serephina posted:I think the 'trouble' is that it's a 4X series that can be consumed and set aside; people will play Civ all day every day, and Stellaris-enjoyers have brain worms, but by the time you've won with every faction there's not enough oomf to go back and do it again. This is mostly due to the weak AI, but looking at Civ there might be some other magic missing. Maybe it's just a player-base thing due to brand recognition, not enough chatty newbies or whatever. I'm a big Civ obsessive who has had some fun with the Endless games and will definitely come back to them, but I find that in various ways they just feel clunky compared to Civ. The tech tree, the units, the city-building, the diplomacy, all of them are just a little fiddly, a little awkward, a little too information-dense in ways that don't add to the enjoyment for me. (In particular I hate the tech trees, which are incredibly difficult to parse for me.) And I don't think it's just because I've played these games for less time than Civ. The first time I played a Civ game it was clear that there were layers upon layers that I was missing, but they all felt very much optional, things you could ignore or automate unless you were playing on higher difficulties. With Endless, you have to gently caress around with customizing your units and obsessively analyze every option in the tech tree and you're still probably going to fail horribly the first few times because you didn't know you need X armor or Y building in order to not get annihilated thirty turns from now. None of this is me hating on the Endless games, I especially love the uniqueness of the factions and in particular Endless Space has some things I've wanted to see in a game since Spaceward Ho!, but the learning curve is just steep enough that I bounced off it after the first few tries.
|
|
#
?
Oct 31, 2021 22:47
|
|