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Oasx posted:It's pretty clear in the movie that Natasha is referring to being turned into an assassin. It's been a while since I've seen the movie, but doesn't she talk about how the final part of her training is a "ceremony" where they sterilize her, and then immediately she follows it up by saying, "Still think you're the only monster on the team?" She's specifically referring to the sterilization, in my memory.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:02
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It's both and subsequent stories definitely lean heavily into the 'paying back the debt from being an assassin' element, but Whedon is absolutely looking at the female martial arts character and thinking 'okay if I just add some physical trauma then they'll be perfect'. Because it's what he does every time. e: the infertility is also the element that's used to add 'will they won't they' awkwardness to the Nat/Banner relationship. It's her half of what's holding her back.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:02
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Ehh, i still don't buy that Nat is specifically referring to her sterilization, but on the other hand, why even have Bruce mention infertility as part of his monstrosity?
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Apr 13, 2021 14:03
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howe_sam posted:Ehh, i still don't buy that, but on the other hand, why even have Bruce mention his infertility as part of his monstrosity? Textually, it's because they had just met Barton's family.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:04
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Hulk no use protection
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Apr 13, 2021 14:09
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Nat is obviously talking about being an assassin, but the way things are presented matters. It's like in Man of Steel when Clark asks his dad if he should have let those kids die and the first thing Jonathan says is "Maybe". Yeah, he immediately walks it back and expresses a lot of ambiguity blah, blah, blah, but that "Maybe" is what's gonna stick in peoples' heads because of the order in which it's presented. Same thing with Age of Ultron. Nat is talking about being more of a monster than Bruce because she's been conditioned to be a relentless, remorseless murderer. The fact that she can't have children is presented as a part of that, but not the most important part. But it's presented last, and right before she says "So who's the real monster here?" So that's what sticks in the audience's head. Nat is a monster because she can't have kids.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:18
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Bust Rodd posted:But holy poo poo the last act is just utter nonsense. Is there like a Hollywood Speedster curse where screenwriters just cannot convincingly write a consistent super speed character who doesn’t just, like, totally forget how their powers work at critical moments? His death feels so lazy I was totally removed from the scene. There actually is. If you have a speedster who can actually stop time or never be at risk of danger, then it destroys any chance for meaningful stakes and opens the script up to tons of plot holes like, "Why didn't they just use X?" It's why every instance of super speed or time travel in any serialized media always has either: - Severe restrictions placed on the Speedster. - The death of the speedster or destruction/some reason they can never use time travel again. - That character never appearing again.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:19
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Yeah, I always interpreted that scene as Nat feeling like a monster because she willingly took all of the steps to become a perfect killer and regrets closing off the possibility a “normal” family. On a separate note, my favorite pet of TWS is on the freeway when Bucky punches through the roof of the car and rips the steering wheel off while Sam is driving. It’s such a delightfully dickish move.
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Apr 13, 2021 14:21
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Is gottagofast.txt still a bannable offense? I think that text sums up why speedsters always have to die very succinctly or be sidelined for stupid reasons. They are prohibitively difficult to put in stories not centered around them (Justice League 2017 vs Snyder Cut is unironically a good example of this). Of course the easiest way around this is to never introduce them in the first place. Would anything have been lost if Quicksilver in AoU was just a regular human?
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Apr 13, 2021 14:21
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:There actually is. If you have a speedster who can actually stop time or never be at risk of danger, then it destroys any chance for meaningful stakes and opens the script up to tons of plot holes like, "Why didn't they just use X?" Seems like it would be fairly easy to put energy based limitations on them, just have scenes of the speedster looking gaunt and hiding to desperately binge eat/drink energy drinks (gently caress it, have some product placement here, burger king and red bull or whatever). Have them looking dead tired and make sloppy mistakes because of it. Show them being increasingly exhausted until their powers start failing. The way they did it they instead just had Quicksilver have pretty much infinite stamina until he pushes a car in front of Hawkeye and then... get shredded by bullets beside the car because he wasn't behind it... why didn't he just move Hawkeye and the kid like he did the people from the train earlier...? Just seemed like a lazy setup, I wish they took like 5 minutes to set up a better situation for him to sacrifice himself if they were dead set on killing him off.
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Apr 13, 2021 15:27
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They can have speedsters be fast, but not so fast that they essentially have time manipulation powers. Or they can go the Heroes route and have omnipotent superheroes disabled by just knocking them over the head with a saucepan.
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Apr 13, 2021 16:09
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I need to watch Ultron again, because I really don't remember anything about it. I just remember seeing it and not wanting to ever watch it again.
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Apr 13, 2021 16:10
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Sammus posted:I need to watch Ultron again, because I really don't remember anything about it. I just remember seeing it and not wanting to ever watch it again. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. -Tony Stark
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Apr 13, 2021 16:19
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There's a lot of good little foundational bits in AoU that added a lot to the MCU lore -- everyone trying to lift the hammer, Hawkeye's family, the introduction of both Vision and Klaue -- and Spader-Ultron was loving great the few times in the film he was used well, but the overall plot jumps around all over the map to the point where it becomes borderline nonsensical and the final fight is a mess of featureless grey Bayformer-like robots generically lasering things. It feels like there was probably a good movie in there somewhere interrupted by large set pieces.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:06
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:There's a lot of good little foundational bits in AoU that added a lot to the MCU lore -- everyone trying to lift the hammer, Hawkeye's family, the introduction of both Vision and Klaue -- and Spader-Ultron was loving great the few times in the film he was used well, but the overall plot jumps around all over the map to the point where it becomes borderline nonsensical and the final fight is a mess of featureless grey Bayformer-like robots generically lasering things. Wheedon'd Again!
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Apr 13, 2021 17:13
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The point of the Natasha scene where she mentioned that she has been sterilized is in the greater context of how they brainwashed to be an assassin. They sterilized her because of the risk that a mother child bond would overcome the brainwashing. So when she says she's a "monster" it's because she doesn't think she is capable of actually being anything other than a killer, and that one of the means that might have worked to overcome that conditioning has been taken away from her. It's clearly not meant to imply that because she can't have children she's a monster. People took it that way because it's a popular hot take and it's been reinvigorated now that whedon turned out to be a huge arsehole. quote:In the Red Room, where I was trained, where I was raised, they have a graduation ceremony. They sterilize you. It’s efficient – one less thing to worry about – the one thing that might matter more than a mission. Makes everything easier, even killing. You still think you’re the only monster on the team?
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Apr 13, 2021 17:16
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Given that Whedon originally wanted Hulk to fly off to Tahiti and Feige had to step in and say "No, leave him alone. We have plans," you have to wonder how much of all the table setting stuff came from Whedon and how much came from Feige.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:18
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Seldom Posts posted:The point of the Natasha scene where she mentioned that she has been sterilized is in the greater context of how they brainwashed to be an assassin. This whole conversation is a lot like the ones surrounding all the ways WandaVision pissed people off. At the end of the day, if everyone heard one thing and Whedon meant another, it's bad writing at best.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:21
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live with fruit posted:This whole conversation is a lot like the ones surrounding all the ways WandaVision pissed people off. At the end of the day, if everyone heard one thing and Whedon meant another, it's bad writing at best. Yeah such a sensitive issue could have been handled better than a one-off scene thoughtlessly crammed into the middle of the movie.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:27
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Cap almost lifting Mjolnir and Thor being low-key shocked by it is a great AoU moment. It gets undercut later when Vision casually tosses it around and Stark compares him to an elevator or something
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Apr 13, 2021 17:29
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The best line in AoU is Cap’s “If you get hurt, hurt ‘em back. If you get killed... walk it off.” and the second best was Ultron being like “why yes let tell you my evil plan of course”
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Apr 13, 2021 17:38
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Seldom Posts posted:They sterilized her because of the risk that a mother child bond would overcome the brainwashing. I doubt you want your brainwashed seductress assassins getting pregnant on the job either, regardless of some child bonding issues
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Apr 13, 2021 17:38
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There's also the whole pulled-straight-from-Kill Bill 2 thing.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:39
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MiddleOne posted:Haha what is the weird Steven Strange reference in Winter Soldier. The AI knew from his bank records and purchasing patterns that he was going to become a sorcerer? Very goofy. Look at how desperate he was to save his own life or gain some resemblance of normalacy. A Hydra follower would take the pill and refuse to engage in self preservation unless ordered to as a proof of resolve. That is why he was marked despite his initial display of desirable traits in Hydra. He cannot be depended on to take his own life when cornered.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:51
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Bust Rodd posted:the second best was Ultron being like “why yes let tell you my evil plan of course” The sad thing about AoU is that he almost has a point. Like, he's sort of set up as this critique of superhero reactivity, where they never prevent things or build anything, they just intervene when things are happening. Which, hey, true. Superheroes are (more or less by necessity of the sorts of stories they want to tell,) very conservative/authoritarian. Why isn't there an arc reactor powering every city? Because then the MCU world could no longer realistically resemble ours, and they don't want to tell those stories, so they have to come up with some excuse. But Ultron's plan to fix that is some handwave about evolution and killing everyone, which is better because ??? Realistically, Ultron's plan might've been "kill all the people who might do evil," but that's basically Winter Soldier. Boxman fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Apr 13, 2021 |
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Apr 13, 2021 17:52
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I liked YoYos (initial ) limitation in AOS, she's a speedster but only in short bursts and has to return to her starting point. I always assume speedsters have to really concentrate, like an athlete doing a floor routine or on the bars. Distraction causes it all to fall apart and bones to break. It would be funny to have a speedster who could run fast but reacts normally, like having to stop in order to go round corners or risk plowing right into a wall.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:56
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Boxman posted:The sad thing about AoU is that he almost has a point. Like, he's sort of set up as this critique of superhero reactivity, where they never prevent things or build anything, they just intervene when things are happening. Which, hey, true. Superheroes are (more or less by necessity of the sorts of stories they want to tell,) very conservative/authoritarian. Why isn't there an arc reactor powering every city? Because then the MCU world could no longer realistically resemble ours, and they don't want to tell those stories, so they have to come up with some excuse. The simple good villain guide is basically: 1. Start with legitimate grievance/cause 2. Add insanity.
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Apr 13, 2021 17:59
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I would love to see how much AoU is improved by Ultron not having a moving mouth and eyebrows. It was literally distracting and made zero sense.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:16
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Boxman posted:The sad thing about AoU is that he almost has a point. Like, he's sort of set up as this critique of superhero reactivity, where they never prevent things or build anything, they just intervene when things are happening. Which, hey, true. Superheroes are (more or less by necessity of the sorts of stories they want to tell,) very conservative/authoritarian. Why isn't there an arc reactor powering every city? Because then the MCU world could no longer realistically resemble ours, and they don't want to tell those stories, so they have to come up with some excuse. They go into more detail in some deleted scenes, but essentially: - Ultron's big robot brain controls everything and from all information in the world puts together the power of the infinity stones and their connection to the invasion of New York in Avengers. (This is how he knows about the mind stone and why he bemoans humanity not knowing what they had and their lack of vision) - Ultron comes to the conclusion that mankind can't possibly win in their current state and is disgusted by humanity (flesh too weak, people will hold back progress to devote resources to loved ones or traditions, greed, fear, tribalism, can't unite, etc.) - Ultron decides to fulfill his mission of protecting earth by essentially killing off most of humanity to allow only the strong to survive and use that as a base for a new civilization that is comprised only of the strong and can start with a clean slate. - This new society will use machines (including augmenting humans with metal bodies), the infinity stones, and unity of purpose to create a hyper powerful society to defeat the coming apocalypse. Roughly 10% of that made it into the movie. They also had an extended dream vision scene with Thor where the infinity stones, ragnarok, and the destruction of earth are foretold.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:21
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They need to bring Ultron back to give him better movie. They might even do it eventually. Oh and make Thanos just really wanna bang death.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:23
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bring thanos back in Deadpool 3 and Ultron, gently caress it and D Man
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Apr 13, 2021 18:29
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Invalid Validation posted:They need to bring Ultron back to give him better movie. They might even do it eventually. That could be the next Deadpool. If I recall Marvel Death is not interested in Thanos, but she's sort of into Deadpool at least in a "Why can't this guy come say hi?" kind of way.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:31
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Invalid Validation posted:They need to bring Ultron back to give him better movie. They might even do it eventually. Ultron's the Power Broker, obviously.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:37
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live with fruit posted:Ultron's the Power Broker, obviously. Honestly...a defeated Ultron being the Power Broker would be good lol
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Apr 13, 2021 18:39
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seaborgium posted:That could be the next Deadpool. If I recall Marvel Death is not interested in Thanos, but she's sort of into Deadpool at least in a "Why can't this guy come say hi?" kind of way. iirc it's more of a wants what she can't have.
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Apr 13, 2021 18:43
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Firebert posted:Honestly...a defeated Ultron being the Power Broker would be good lol ...Yeah holy poo poo I'm surprisingly on board with this That or Patton Oswalt MODOK
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Apr 13, 2021 18:46
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There's a version of Ultron from the comics where after being defeated someone finds his head and puts it on their television. He takes over the television and hypnotizes them. That's the version they need for the next iteration of Ultron.
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Apr 13, 2021 19:01
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I hope at some point in the next Avengers movie Wanda turns a battlefield into Malcom in the Middle. Just outta nowhere. Galactus turns into Bryan Cranston and gets his pants ripped off by a vacuum cleaner or something while everyone laughs.
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Apr 13, 2021 19:22
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smoobles posted:I hope at some point in the next Avengers movie Wanda turns a battlefield into Malcom in the Middle. Just outta nowhere. oh god please no, the various MCU threads would spend years afterward constantly debating the morality of Wanda mind-torturing Galactus for a joke
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Apr 13, 2021 20:11
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Comic Ultron is just weird in a way the film version rarely came close to but the consistent link between them is that they're all bugfuck crazy. It's been a toaster with daddy issues, a shrieking Dalek-like murderbot, a bodyguard to Doom for some reason, makes a girlfriend using the brain patterns of its 'mom' (the Wasp). At one point it sort of does a Brainiac 5s and becomes a cool and chill, non-homicidal version but I think that one is then killed by an earlier murderbot version(?). An even later revision of itself is based on the Wasp again, this time a naked metal woman that was finally destroyed by a combination of a Commodore 64 and a miniaturised Greek god of war. This one is clearly the best version though: Vision followed signal to a New Orleans jazz club only to find Ultron wearing a trench coat and a hat.
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Apr 13, 2021 20:44
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