Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

It's not just the Uighurs, I reported a post claiming that the holodomor is fake and there was no famine, the birth rate just fell because all the peasants got educated! No reaction, contacted the admins - nothing, requested an Official List of Something Awful Recognized Genocides (the Holocaust, the Native american genocide, Future Navalny genocide) and Fake CIA Psy-Ops (holodomor, uighurs, bosnians) and still nothing

Speaking of which there is a great article in Novaya Gazeta where they interview survivors of the camps, who are now refugees in Kazakhstan: https://novayagazeta.ru/articles/2020/04/16/84935-kitayskaya-peredelka

One guy was actually a citizen of Kazakhstan and still got imprisoned (google translated):

quote:

Relatives wrote letters to the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Kazakhstan asking for help, appealed to the consulates while I was in the camp. My wife ran from one office to another with four children to save me. And she did it. Unified words and laughing at her words, the Chinese Embassy in Kazakhstan told her that I had broken the law and therefore in prison. And when they saw the children in her arms, they said why she gave birth to them, if now she could not feed them.

At night I dream about the camp - how I wander along its corridors. These prisons are a great trauma for those who were and are there.

quote:

Due to the fact that we used one bucket, many suffered from genital infections. I felt unwell and became distracted by injections with an unknown solution. The attitude towards us was terrible, and for a minor offense they were severely punished.

Women were beaten on the head with truncheons for crying, because they missed home and family. The guards would handcuff if a person coughed without asking permission. We were tied to an iron chair for tens of hours, depriving us of food, water and the ability to move. I found myself on it six times. In this position they beat me.

They arranged interrogations. They asked about my family, about religion, whether I read namaz, whether I keep the Koran at home. We were told that we are here to change. They said openly that this is such an internal policy of China and no country has the right to interfere in it. At a meeting for prisoners, I heard that no Muslim will be released until 2026.

There were more people in the cell. At night I saw how widows and unmarried women were taken out into the corridor and led somewhere. When I was forced to work as a cleaner, I found out where and why they were taken.

At night, I took these women into a room with curtained windows. She helped to undress, prepared for the arrival of the authorities. They went into the room, and I waited in the dressing room when it was over.

Somaen fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Apr 11, 2021

# ? Apr 11, 2021 12:44

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# ? May 13, 2024 21:29

Budzilla: Oct 14, 2007; We can all learn from our past mistakes.

Erulisse posted:

If someone is downplaying Chinese Uyghur concentration camps (they are concentration camps, china is seriously genociding a whole nation of people), they should be permaed.

Funny you should say that!

Russia is probably fudging Covid-19 statistics

quote:

The official Russian coronavirus death toll of 102,649 as of Saturday � reported on state television and to the World Health Organization � is far lower, when adjusted for the population, than that of United States and most of Western Europe.

However, a far different story is told by the official statistics agency Rosstat, which tallies deaths from all causes. Russia saw a jump of 360,000 deaths above normal from last April through December, according to a Times analysis of historical data. Rosstat figures for January and February of this year show that the number is now well above 400,000.

In the United States, with more than twice the population of Russia, such �excess deaths� since the start of the pandemic have numbered about 574,000. By that measure, which many demographers see as the most accurate way to assess the virus�s overall toll, the pandemic killed about one in every 400 people in Russia, compared with one in every 600 in the United States.

Such is life

# ? Apr 12, 2021 03:10

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

Erulisse posted:

If someone is downplaying Chinese Uyghur concentration camps (they are concentration camps, china is seriously genociding a whole nation of people), they should be permaed.

happy to report wapo is now illegal

https://twitter.com/Geopol2030/status/1380992394334625795

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Apr 12, 2021 03:21

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

So, "only" cultural genocide and ethnic cleansing?

# ? Apr 12, 2021 03:42

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

If you actually read the article the dude goes, well, here's what legally constitutes a genocide, and while what's happening in China ticks some of the boxes, and is technically a genocide under this definition, come on, regular people still understand genocide as literally murdering millions of people, and that's not happening, so let's not use the scary word.

Funny how some posters choose to cling to semantics over what China does to minorities and appeal to an op-ed in WaPo, as if it's some extremely reputable source on the topic, while the brave people of C-SPAM are fighting an uphill battle for the previlege to call ICE facilities concentration camps in that one D&D thread.

# ? Apr 12, 2021 04:20

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Truga posted:

happy to report wapo is now illegal

https://twitter.com/Geopol2030/status/1380992394334625795

here are the sentences surrounding that one chunk carefully clipped out by some random-rear end Twitter tankie

quote:

To be sure, Beijing�s policies against the Uyghurs, a mostly Muslim group of Turkic ethnicity, have been horrendous. Detentions, �reeducation camps,� forced sterilizations and even some forced abortions require strong pushback. The United States has been correct to level stern public criticism against Beijing for these practices, and to impose targeted sanctions as well. Combined with repression of democracy in Hong Kong, ongoing stifling of dissent, assertive behavior in the South and East China Seas and threats against Taiwan, China under President Xi Jinping has given the world plenty of reason for worry.

But none of this equates to genocide, as the term was first coined in 1944 by the Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin in the context of the ongoing Holocaust in Germany. As former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power documented in her book �A Problem from Hell,� the concept also has roots in the Ottoman Empire�s deliberate mass killings of hundreds of thousands of Armenians in 1915. The Genocide Convention of 1948 formalizes the definition in Article II:

quote:
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
a. Killing members of the group;
b. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
c. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
e. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

China has indeed carried out some of the latter actions against the Uyghurs in individual cases, and its use of reeducation and forced labor camps has affected huge numbers. But genocide historically has described the killings of hundreds of thousands or millions of individuals. Nothing close to that has occurred against the Uyghurs. Moreover, for all of China�s forced-assimilation and demographic-dilution efforts in Xinjiang, there is no compelling evidence of a plan to �destroy� the group, so Chinese behavior does not meet the definition of genocide based on the concept of intent as noted in Article II.

# ? Apr 12, 2021 04:36

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Paladinus posted:

If you actually read the article the dude goes, well, here's what legally constitutes a genocide, and while what's happening in China ticks some of the boxes, and is technically a genocide under this definition, come on, regular people still understand genocide as literally murdering millions of people, and that's not happening, so let's not use the scary word.

Funny how some posters choose to cling to semantics over what China does to minorities and appeal to an op-ed in WaPo, as if it's some extremely reputable source on the topic, while the brave people of C-SPAM are fighting an uphill battle for the previlege to call ICE facilities concentration camps in that one D&D thread.

can we not shout about the perfidious posters of c-spamm1!!!!!! every time someone sees a fuckin tankie take in D&D?

who gives a gently caress

it's a poo poo take because it's a poo poo take, not because you saw someone post a similar take in a subforum you don't like. this inter-forum rivalry is dumb as hell and i would like to be able to read the two politics forums on this site without a bunch of dumbasses constantly sniping at each other about petty team bullshit

thank you very much

# ? Apr 12, 2021 04:38

Somaen: Nov 19, 2007; by vyelkin

Main Paineframe posted:

can we not shout about the perfidious posters of c-spamm1!!!!!! every time someone sees a fuckin tankie take in D&D?

who gives a gently caress

it's a poo poo take because it's a poo poo take, not because you saw someone post a similar take in a subforum you don't like. this inter-forum rivalry is dumb as hell and i would like to be able to read the two politics forums on this site without a bunch of dumbasses constantly sniping at each other about petty team bullshit

thank you very much

What the gently caress, it's because if we were seeing constant "just questioning the holocaust" takes in a subforum which then would occasionally spill out, people would be weirded out and wondering why is that acceptable here and on the forums in general, not wondering how we can brush up on our academic minutia of the Holocaust and the semantics of genocide to refute every bad-faith article and post. And the admins either choose to ignore it or approve, so try directing your outrage there to improve your forums reading experience
___

The Russian information field is pretty good for information on the Uighur situation by getting first hand accounts from Kazakhstan:
https://novayagazeta.ru/articles/2020/09/20/87175-vybratsya-iz-sintszyanya

quote:

Any movement had to ask permission in Chinese. �If we moved without permission, we were told that a camera had spotted us and were taken out of the row to another room. There is a chair in it, to which they were handcuffed. The handcuffs shrink as you move, �the woman recalls.

Three months later, unknown injections began to be given. �We were told that it was a cough injection, it was put in the shoulder. I don�t know why, but after this injection, many women stopped menstruating, �says Gulzira. - The injections were given every day, and then they began to give small white pills. They enter the mouth and dissolve immediately. Sometimes doctors or nurses would come and check on us. Then we were forced to eat pork and they called it �relatives' food�. At first we refused, we cried, but after the injections we forgot about our relatives and thought only about food. "

�In 15 months I was interrogated 27 times,� says Gulzira. - Sometimes I thought about my family, about my relatives and cried. If we cried, we were handcuffed to a chair for 12, 16, 24 hours. "

Sometimes Gulzira was taken to meetings with the police, who brought her to the camp. �I said: thank you for bringing me here, I study well here, and everyone wrote it down,� she says.

In the camp, the Koran and zhainamaz were burned (a rug that Muslims spread before prayer - V). �There were a lot of them, I think, because the relatives were told that if you bring these things and religious books from home, the party will probably forgive you,� the woman says. �We were all told, learn Chinese, there are no other nations - Kazakhs, Uighurs, Kirghiz, you are all like the Chinese people, you live on the money of China and on the land of China.�

They came from the Communist Party with checks. �When they came, they dyed our gray hair, put on makeup, sprayed us with perfume. The room was decorated. Chinese speakers were placed in front of the crowd. We greeted them with a smile, went outside and danced. We sang the song �We are relatives of China,� says Gulzira.

https://lenta.ru/articles/2020/10/08/chinausa/

quote:

After the clashes in 2009 in Beijing, apparently, they were really scared. The authorities believed that Islam, along with its own language and traditions, allows the Uyghurs to maintain an identity that is dangerous to the state. They decided to work with this problem using an organized suppression system.

The architect of the new policy was Chen Quanguo, the party curator who had previously pacified Tibet. In 2016, he began by tightening control: he significantly increased the number of security officials on the streets and in mosques, and began using the most modern surveillance technologies available to the Chinese government. Almost all basic human rights were violated - the Uighurs became second-class people, against whom the presumption of guilt operated.

Soon, Muslims were forbidden to call their children their traditional names and to freely use knives. They, in violation of tradition, were forced to eat pork, drink alcohol and praise the Communist Party. In parallel, the authorities arranged a specific "friendship of peoples" in the XUAR: they facilitated the massive migration of Han people there and inter-ethnic marriages. There was even information about the placement of representatives of the titular nation in Uyghur families and the encouragement of Uyghur women who decided to sterilize.

By 2017, the same re-education camps emerged in the XUAR, which are openly compared with concentration camps in the Russian and Western press.
It is still impossible to find out for certain what happened and is happening in the re-education camps. It is clearly not worth believing those who have been on official press tours - their reports are too complimentary, because they only saw what they were shown. The researchers had to be content with the stories of former prisoners (which are sometimes also dubious) and the analysis of images from satellites. It is known for certain that no one went there voluntarily - and that the prisoners were consistently and comprehensively brainwashed. Reports of widespread use of torture still remain without real evidence.

# ? Apr 12, 2021 07:39

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Main Paineframe posted:

can we not shout about the perfidious posters of c-spamm1!!!!!! every time someone sees a fuckin tankie take in D&D?

who gives a gently caress

it's a poo poo take because it's a poo poo take, not because you saw someone post a similar take in a subforum you don't like. this inter-forum rivalry is dumb as hell and i would like to be able to read the two politics forums on this site without a bunch of dumbasses constantly sniping at each other about petty team bullshit

thank you very much

Sorry about that. It wasn't meant as a diss on C-SPAM posters in any way, I don't know where that person posts.

# ? Apr 12, 2021 11:47

Erulisse: Feb 12, 2019; A bad poster trying to get better.

Budzilla posted:

Russia is probably fudging Covid-19 statistics
Such is life

"Probably".
Several high-profile doctors "fell out of window" after telling the world that "reported pneumonia deaths are covid deaths and the govnmnt is rigging poo poo" back in april '20
Then there is like, common sense. Moscow metro usage stats - 8m daily. Covid cases 2 weeks after idiot sobyanin made his "state of heightened alert" orders which led to massive queues in metro only rose from 2k to 8k. Yeah sure bud.

I mean

Russian politicians are lying. Not sometimes, not from time to time. ALWAYS. And the stats are always rigged to show what politicians need to say. It has been that way since late perestroyka, it is same now, just worse and every-loving-where.

# ? Apr 12, 2021 21:51

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

If anything I'm surprised total excess deaths haven't been fudged either. Seems like someone dropped the ball there.

# ? Apr 13, 2021 07:29

Xerxes17: Feb 17, 2011

mobby_6kl posted:

If anything I'm surprised total excess deaths haven't been fudged either. Seems like someone dropped the ball there.

Unless you start making posting obituaries illegal, that'd be kind of hard to do. Plus you wouldn't want to gently caress with your own death counts because that'd lead to bookkeeping issues later. Besides, when you control the media and can push people out of windows, you don't need to.

# ? Apr 13, 2021 08:01

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

mobby_6kl posted:

If anything I'm surprised total excess deaths haven't been fudged either. Seems like someone dropped the ball there.

Belarusian statistician just straight up stopped releasing overall mortality rates. The latest update they've provided is that the population went down 60k, while previous several years it was going down only about 20k a year. No explanation is given so far.

Russian statisticians, on the other hand, say that Covid deaths don't include people who had Corona, got better, but then died because their brush with Corona exacerbated some other conditions, which caused their death. It's not entirely honest either, to say the least, but they're are at least trying to explain things. In Belarus they decided that people don't deserve any explanation.

# ? Apr 13, 2021 09:22

Mr. Sunshine: May 15, 2008; This is a scrunt that has been in space too long and become a Lunt (Long Scrunt); Fun Shoe

steinrokkan posted:

"Yeah, yeah, genocide , shmenocide, it may be happening or it may not, whatever, now to the real poo poo - have you guys seen this video that proves daddy Putin is the only thing standing in the way of Nazis gaining power in Russia?"

Isn't that like how most post-soviet dictators like Putin, Luka etc stay in power? All sane, realistic opposition is killed off or exiled, while a handful of impotent, incompetent or outright insane parties remain as managed opposition, making sure that the only alternative to the Eternal President is complete chaos.

# ? Apr 14, 2021 09:42

alex314: Nov 22, 2007

There's also a fear of change for a lot of people that went through dissolution of USSR. "Fuckawful, but stable" as we say in second world.

# ? Apr 14, 2021 10:46

Mokotow: Apr 16, 2012

alex314 posted:

There's also a fear of change for a lot of people that went through dissolution of USSR. "Fuckawful, but stable" as we say in second world.

To be fair to them, the early 90s were absolutely brutal and I sort of understand people in Ukraine and Belarus looked at Poland and said "gently caress that noise". Ultimately Poland's ahead, but back then, it wasn't that clear cut how thing's will pan out, and then it was kinda too late to get on that bandwagon. What a clusterfuck.

# ? Apr 14, 2021 13:43

Tuna-Fish: Sep 13, 2017

Mr. Sunshine posted:

Isn't that like how most post-soviet dictators like Putin, Luka etc stay in power? All sane, realistic opposition is killed off or exiled, while a handful of impotent, incompetent or outright insane parties remain as managed opposition, making sure that the only alternative to the Eternal President is complete chaos.

Exactly. And what makes this so drat scary to outsiders is that this necessarily includes not having any sort of realistic succesion plans. Like, I might not like Putin very much, but I must grant that Putin is not going to gently caress the world tomorrow. He's sane enough that he understands that he's living in the world with the rest of us and competent enough not to stray too close to the edge.

However, if tomorrow Putin gets a stroke and dies, what now? He's getting to the age where that is an entirely realistic concern. All the stooges in his party are basically the kind of people he trusts not to come for him, which also means they are not exactly cut out to replace him.

# ? Apr 14, 2021 17:34

alex314: Nov 22, 2007

That's the downsides of having a monarchy in all but name. He could realistically have some succession plan in the work, maybe some heir is being secretly groomed in the background. I definitely wouldn't look forward to infighting after Putin kicks the bucket. Imagine how places like Chechnya or Dagestan would look like. And whoever wins might start with trying to best Putin's annexation score.

# ? Apr 14, 2021 17:46

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Ahemm. On 9/11 all the ukrainians in New York didn't go to work. Makes you think

# ? Apr 14, 2021 19:17

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

Ahemm. On 9/11 all the ukrainians in New York didn't go to work. Makes you think

In fact I saw them celebrating in New Jersey!

# ? Apr 14, 2021 19:45

Necronormiecon: Mar 12, 2019; Farewell, sweet Nerevar. Better luck on your next incarnation.

This entire Daily Beast article is JUST :piaa:

TDS posted:

�War [with the U.S.] is inevitable,� declared Margarita Simonyan, editor in chief of the state-funded Russian media outlets RT and Sputnik, who believes the conflict will break out when, not if, Vladimir Putin moves to seize more territory from Ukraine.

what

TDS posted:

The top RT editor asserted that �[Russia] needs to be ready for this war, which is unavoidable, and of course it will start in Ukraine,� arguing that the Kremlin is �invincible where conventional war is concerned, but forget about conventional war... it will be a war of infrastructures, and here we have many vulnerabilities.�

the

TDS posted:

She wholeheartedly endorsed a suggestion from Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the ultranationalist leader of Russia�s Liberal Democratic Party, who argued that all of Russia�s opposition must be eliminated by May 1, 2021.

christ

TDS posted:

Simonyan argued that once Russia minimizes its vulnerabilities and renders Putin�s opposition powerless�which she argued could happen in a matter of months�the Kremlin will finally be ready to annex Ukraine�s eastern region.

�I�ve been agitating and even demanding that we take Donbas. We need to patch up our vulnerabilities as fast as we can, and then we can do whatever we want,� she boldly proclaimed. The host, Vladimir Soloviev, wholeheartedly agreed: �We only lose if we do nothing.� He argued that by absorbing parts of Ukraine�or the entire country�Russia would be able to remove the zone of American influence further away from its borders.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 15:44

Budzilla: Oct 14, 2007; We can all learn from our past mistakes.

Wouldn't moving their borders westwards make them closer to US influence? It will be interesting to see what sort of new sanctions and measures the US and EU will do next.

I wonder if this recent escalation in words and supposed military equipment has anything to do with the recently discussed water shortage in Crimea? The situation in Ukraine has simmered away for a while and now this sort of invasion chat is now entering the Russian political conversation.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 17:14

Mokotow: Apr 16, 2012

I have nothing to back this up, but I do believe Putin is in a position to push into Ukraine, all the way to the Dniepr, without anyone stopping him effectively, which is not to say he�ll be unopposed. I also think there�s no way in hell the Russian economy can sustain an occupation like that. I realize this is Clancy chat.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 17:52

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Mokotow posted:

I have nothing to back this up, but I do believe Putin is in a position to push into Ukraine, all the way to the Dniepr, without anyone stopping him effectively, which is not to say he�ll be unopposed. I also think there�s no way in hell the Russian economy can sustain an occupation like that. I realize this is Clancy chat.

Russia couldn't get passed donbass region and can't get water to crimea. Their whole method of control is to sub contract out the occupation to feudal fascists who already live in the country unabated by the government of ukraine. Unopposed is unlikely as this isn't 2014 anymore. It's been 7 years since russia occupied crimea and ukraine has had a lot of time to prepare for the possible conflict.

Crimea was not a shooting war really. It was a silk glove occupation. Marching on the dnieper is definitely doing to be a bloody conflict that will not be a silk glove in any way shape or form

# ? Apr 15, 2021 18:14

Necronormiecon: Mar 12, 2019; Farewell, sweet Nerevar. Better luck on your next incarnation.

I don�t think there is any reason whatsoever to believe that the passage of time somehow favors Ukrainians more than it does Russians. Overemphasizing the value of meaningless military toys is political observer's equivalent of stimming.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 18:34

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Necronormiecon posted:

I don�t think there is any reason whatsoever to believe that the passage of time somehow favors Ukrainians more than it does Russians. Overemphasizing the value of meaningless military toys is political observer's equivalent of stimming.

Seeing as Ukraine did not deploy their regular forces in defense of Donbass or Crimea your point becomes invalid. The longer the defending side has to plan their defense the more beneficial it is. Defense in depth as well as improved organizational structure is like a fine wine it gets better with age. The response to a future invasion is much different post fact. Ukrainian security forces are well aware of the failings of the last war.

Russia is has and continues to be strangulated by the sanctions that have been placed upon it, you crane on the other hand has the benefit of foreign aid being readily available. The point of the defense of Ukraine is not to win the war but to elongate the conflict so that there's time to draw upon foreign aid and potentially bankrupt or embarrass russia.

Having Russian boys sent home in coffins on a weekly basis is not going to resonate well amongst the Russian people who are fast becoming disenfranchised with Vladimir Putin.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 18:47

Grammarchist: Jan 28, 2013

How are the nationalists in Poland, Hungary etc. responding to these Russian moves? Are they torn between sympathy for a fellow right-wing regime and historic fears of Russian imperialism, or are they breaking one way or another?

# ? Apr 15, 2021 19:25

mobby_6kl: Aug 9, 2009; by Fluffdaddy

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

Seeing as Ukraine did not deploy their regular forces in defense of Donbass or Crimea your point becomes invalid. The longer the defending side has to plan their defense the more beneficial it is. Defense in depth as well as improved organizational structure is like a fine wine it gets better with age. The response to a future invasion is much different post fact. Ukrainian security forces are well aware of the failings of the last war.

Russia is has and continues to be strangulated by the sanctions that have been placed upon it, you crane on the other hand has the benefit of foreign aid being readily available. The point of the defense of Ukraine is not to win the war but to elongate the conflict so that there's time to draw upon foreign aid and potentially bankrupt or embarrass russia.

Having Russian boys sent home in coffins on a weekly basis is not going to resonate well amongst the Russian people who are fast becoming disenfranchised with Vladimir Putin.

Well one issue is that Ukraine also has to do offense if it ever wants to clean up the East, and the longer that takes, the more everything gets entrenched into the Transnistria-like disaster zone.

Mounting some decent defense might be possible if russia keeps playing the "it's totally not us" game again but if they go all in, it would be extremely costly and unlikely to succeed. They spend a lot of money on the military and toys and get to play with them in Syria and what not for practice. Ukraine... IIRC sent a few guys to Iraq 15 years ago?

# ? Apr 15, 2021 19:59

Mr Luxury Yacht: Apr 16, 2012

mobby_6kl posted:

Ukraine... IIRC sent a few guys to Iraq 15 years ago?

I mean...did you forget the fighting Ukraine has been doing since 2014?

# ? Apr 15, 2021 20:01

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Grammarchist posted:

How are the nationalists in Poland, Hungary etc. responding to these Russian moves? Are they torn between sympathy for a fellow right-wing regime and historic fears of Russian imperialism, or are they breaking one way or another?

Not the most nationalist or involved country in the region, but in the Czech Republic all the Russian saber rattling has so far barely registered on the radar. Which makes me think everybody knows i's just less than credible bluffing, since even our very, very anti-Russian and very outspoken generals have been apparently quiet this time.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 20:06

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Necronormiecon posted:

This entire Daily Beast article is JUST

what

the

christ

"By moving our borders we eliminate American influence, so lets move our borders all the way to the Channel"

# ? Apr 15, 2021 20:07

Mokotow: Apr 16, 2012

Grammarchist posted:

How are the nationalists in Poland, Hungary etc. responding to these Russian moves? Are they torn between sympathy for a fellow right-wing regime and historic fears of Russian imperialism, or are they breaking one way or another?

It�s a Weimar republic type mess, at least in Poland. There�s so many nationalist and right wing party flavors, you�ll often find contradictory views within one organization. PiS itself is split between anti-Ukrainian, anti-Belarusian and anti-Russian sentiments. Logically they should be all for Zelensky, for example, but they�d rather pressure Ukraine over WWII era Banderist stuff and just ignore Donbass and Crimea. Kacynski holds Putin responsible for the death of his brother, yet his a-ok with Salvini and Orban - both openly pro Kremlin politicians. That�s just the tip of the iceberg, and Russian agents of influence are all over this poo poo.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 20:10

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

mobby_6kl posted:

Well one issue is that Ukraine also has to do offense if it ever wants to clean up the East, and the longer that takes, the more everything gets entrenched into the Transnistria-like disaster zone.

Mounting some decent defense might be possible if russia keeps playing the "it's totally not us" game again but if they go all in, it would be extremely costly and unlikely to succeed. They spend a lot of money on the military and toys and get to play with them in Syria and what not for practice. Ukraine... IIRC sent a few guys to Iraq 15 years ago?

You forgot Poland~

# ? Apr 15, 2021 20:10

Mokotow: Apr 16, 2012

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

You forgot Poland~

For once in our sordid history we actually are not in the East/West buffer zone. Sucks for Belarus and Ukraine.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 20:13

Erulisse: Feb 12, 2019; A bad poster trying to get better.

Budzilla posted:

Wouldn't moving their borders westwards make them closer to US influence?

Its a good and 'funny' question I absolutely loving love to ask people who claim that more territories mean NATO will be farther away from 'us'.
Like, from moscow, is that all you're scared about? Move to loving yakutiya you idiot.

But drat all this pre-elections propaganda is worse and more intense than previous one. Scary.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 22:46

laserghost: Feb 12, 2014; ^{trust me, I'm a cat.}

The whole debacle barely shows up in the news. Today in the news was a mention about Biden adding more sanctions and NATO ordering Russia to dial down their rhetoric. That is all, just lip service. It doesn't help we've been on a huge anti-Ukrainian wave for some time now, even if they are a big part of our lowest labour force and are treated like poor cousins who can't speak

# ? Apr 15, 2021 23:07

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

If nothing else, this has been a fantastic distraction from Navalny's hunger strike.

# ? Apr 15, 2021 23:30

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

My dad thinks Russia's going to invade Ukraine on the basis of 15k troops waving invasion stripes. Is this provocation or an occupation of the Donbass?

# ? Apr 15, 2021 23:53

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

If we do nothing about Russia antagonizing efforts we will face a reckoning on our power. And fascism will descend upon Europe as the democratic governments armies are trash and can't stand up to a Frei Korps type element at this point.

I mean like an above poster said, russia's border "vacation" is the size of the british loving army.

# ? Apr 16, 2021 03:00

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# ? May 13, 2024 21:29

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

Grouchio posted:

My dad thinks Russia's going to invade Ukraine on the basis of 15k troops waving invasion stripes. Is this provocation or an occupation of the Donbass?

Russian's aren't in donbass. donbass is a trashbox region dotted with feudal soviets and religious nuts with barely a functioning police force let alone occupation force. Its a shitshow and a sham that solely is propped up by Russia and by propped i mean arms and russian profiteers crossing the border to trade poo poo.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1382283545159331844

https://twitter.com/i/status/1382874177787547649

https://twitter.com/i/status/1382853082359431182

https://twitter.com/i/status/1382744174160719877

https://twitter.com/i/status/1382733447739936768

All of these are of a pro russian dude.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Apr 16, 2021

# ? Apr 16, 2021 03:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

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