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Good Parmesan posted:For the job I've done 8 interviews, I told the head of HR that my number was $95,000 to their offer of $80,000. Handled it well, but in your position I think simply saying "sorry, but given the offer I already have this would not make sense for me, do you have room to improve it?" is sharper. You have a strong BATNA, and should not be shy about letting them know you have a strong BATNA. Question though, if they hold firm will you accept $80,000?
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Apr 14, 2021 21:46
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Inner Light posted:Sounds like you're doing the right things. I am taken aback by the hiring manager being taken aback that you are negotiating. This. In other news, I was contacted by a hiring manager at a large company for a role on his team; after the initial conversation I said screw it and put my paperwork in. The recruiter reached out and immediately asked for my salary requirements. I replied with "My expectations are commensurate with the scope and impact of this role on the X business and considering my unique technology and leadership experience, talent, and drive for excellence. If you have details around the compensation ranges and packages, that would be helpful." Recruiter didn't say anything but I've got a call later this week. We'll see what happens. 
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Apr 14, 2021 21:46
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Good Parmesan posted:For the job I've done 8 interviews, I told the head of HR that my number was $95,000 to their offer of $80,000. Hint for both you and the readers at home: they will *always* act shocked and taken aback no matter how much you ask for. It’s part of their routine
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Apr 14, 2021 21:50
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PIZZA.BAT posted:Hint for both you and the readers at home: they will *always* act shocked and taken aback no matter how much you ask for. It’s part of their routine 100%. It's near the front of every decent How To Negotiate manual.
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Apr 14, 2021 21:51
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Eric the Mauve posted:100%. It's near the front of every decent How To Negotiate manual. Really? I've read quite a few and usually they discourage emotional tricks.
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Apr 14, 2021 21:57
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Which ones are you thinking of? On what grounds? I'm always in for more good reading material. "Emotional tricks" (also known as persuasive techniques) are super powerful if you know how to use them. Obviously overdoing it with no actual understanding and coming off like Michael Scott is a danger.
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Apr 14, 2021 22:00
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I would have taken the $80,000 if they held still, but now I'm happy to take the $85,000 offer, 5% annual bonus, 3% match, 4 weeks vacation.
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Apr 14, 2021 22:02
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Eric the Mauve posted:Which ones are you thinking of? On what grounds? I'm always in for more good reading material. Getting to yes Negotiating genius I mean in this very thread we usually tell people to avoid that type of behavior.
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Apr 14, 2021 22:31
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Can't speak for others but I would only advise people against "trickery" in all forms because, as a job seeker being interviewed, the person on the other side of the table is almost certainly a far more experienced negotiator than you and you will probably be awkward about it. Not because it doesn't work if properly used. Psychology and particularly the psychology of persuasion are subjects worth studying for everyone--if nothing else so you can recognize psychological "trickery" when it's used on you. The wikipedia article on common logical fallacies is even a good start. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Apr 14, 2021 |
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Apr 14, 2021 22:35
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I guess what I would say is that fake surprise or disappoinment is a pretty poor tool. PS if you want a book on the good tricks https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28815.Influence Pretty well known and over 30 years old.
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Apr 14, 2021 22:50
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I think there is a lot of psychology that goes into offers. I have always found (I mean just look at this thread and people being excited about a bit more money) that offering a little under your budget (if it is fair or you are a jerk) works really well. You either get a good person to accept a bit less money or they counter, you come up some, and they get a win. I think it is even more impactful if the first number goes up ($69K to $72K, $98K to $102K for example). Maybe this falls into the "evil company/manager" side of things but it is obviously the reality.
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Apr 14, 2021 23:02
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The weird psychological game HR was playing with me was saying it like they crafted this custom promotion role just for me, and therefore should accept a salary a bit lower to cover the gap between coordinator and senior. It was already an established role that has a job posting that they were actively hiring for.
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Apr 14, 2021 23:09
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Good Parmesan posted:The weird psychological game HR was playing with me was saying it like they crafted this custom promotion role just for me, and therefore should accept a salary a bit lower to cover the gap between coordinator and senior. It was already an established role that has a job posting that they were actively hiring for. Yeah that is all just a bunch of BS obviously.
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Apr 14, 2021 23:41
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In my somewhat limited experience (I haven’t had that many jobs) recruiters definitely seem to do kind of a “ah I dunno if we can make that work, but I guess I can go grovel and see what they say” thing when you counter an offer.
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Apr 15, 2021 00:28
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The key thing to keep in mind is that most companies are designed like a Chinese room thought experiment. Process, layers, separation of concerns, incentive plans. These have evolved (or been designed) for the benefit of the company and to remove individual action. So a recruiter could be totally honest in not knowing if a certain amount will work. HR means it when they're doing you that favor. They could also be full of poo poo but it's actually almost the same at a functional level. I've had a much easier time in corporate work since I've realized this. Forgiving myself and others + not stressing out as much
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Apr 15, 2021 00:40
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cerious posted:So part of the reason I'm considering the lateral is because moving out of the process engineering space into test engineer space seems to make a lot more sense when it comes to future career growth. I find test program development to be interesting and those are the problems I like working on the most in my current role. I don't want to work on tools for the rest of my career and I don't want to work at places that directly own those tools since those tend to be tied to manufacturing. My thinking is that getting more experience directly in test program development and moving into post Si validation is also something I can take to other companies that are getting into chip design, but don't necessarily have in-house manufacturing, so I would have better job mobility there too. So I've been putting in some time into scoping out the other organization and talking to people and it looks like I have a lot less leverage than I was thinking originally... the other poster was right about internal moves having close to 0 leverage. It's a little disappointing but I'm not too surprised. First off the bonus structure is worse in the other group. I can exclude comp time since it's true that I do have to work extra to earn those. But the factory bonus I get now is up to 4% that the other organization doesn't seem like it can match or get close to matching (maybe at best 1%) Basically the reason my requisition opened up early was because of some drama related to the prior candidate rejecting the offer. The reason there was drama was because that other candidate tried to negotiate and play two sides. Apparently he had gotten the offer, asked for a grade bump and was offered the alternative of an out of cycle review due to him having prior experience (he had originally been in that group, and it was the same job he had before). He took that back and told his original manager. That manager then accused the other group of poaching and it was becoming "unethical" to continue on for both sides since it seemed he was pitting the two against each other. So at the end of it the other person declined the offer, because additionally there were some other people in the group he didn't want to get along with. The same person who gave me that scoop told me it would be unwise to negotiate, as in there would be basically 0% chance it would work. It seems credible, since after talking to another coworker as well it seems most moves are purely lateral and any kind of raises are exceptional. On top of that, he implied it would actually sour things between me and that future manager. So, if someone who has even more relevant experience than I do can't even get an extra dime out of them, it seems I stand less of a chance. The hiring manager is also trying to avoid giving me actual numbers. When I asked, he reiterated it would be lateral on all levels (except for org-specific bonuses) and tried to upsell the higher growth potential in that org (which is true, they do have a wider pay band for each grade level and it's easier to move up there). Any kind of offer letter is contingent on me giving a verbal acceptance to his verbal offer in other words, since the offer letter requires a transfer date and at that point they would need to know I'm in and the two managers have agreed to a date. I am a little lost at what to do at this point. I've tried to be careful asking about negotiation, especially to the person who gave me the scoop, who I think is very close to the hiring manager - I brought it up as an etiquette discussion since I'm still new-ish. I am thinking of playing innocent with the hiring manager and asking if this lateral move is truly lateral, considering that it seems I would be taking a pay cut due to the bonus structure difference. It sounds like the second I bring up the word negotiation, things might get dicey, so maybe having him explain to me if this is a pay cut would be a better play? If they truly cannot do anything for me and I get them to admit it's a pay cut, I don't think anybody can fault me for saying no at that point. It seems a small amount but it's the principle to me. I also haven't considered mentioning anything to my current manager right now. Is there any reason to mention that I have an offer? Seems like it could only do more harm than good.
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Apr 15, 2021 02:31
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cerious posted:So I've been putting in some time into scoping out the other organization and talking to people and it looks like I have a lot less leverage than I was thinking originally... the other poster was right about internal moves having close to 0 leverage. It's a little disappointing but I'm not too surprised. If you aren't willing to take the position with a pay cut, I think it's completely fair to tell the manager that and see if they can do something about it. I wouldn't say this is negotiating so much as stating your position. Given what you've been told I don't know if I would do this if you are willing to take it with the pay cut because then it is a negotiation. I probably would not tell your manager anything and definitely would not try to use this as leverage.
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Apr 15, 2021 02:48
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I do want to mention to the nurse that there's a bit more leverage than your standard job due to every place always needing nurses forever, so I'm not sure the regular rules apply with regards to accepting a counter offer and your ability to negotiate even in a lateral move. If you speak with HR and they say they can't do anything on pay, then just turn it down and tell them its not in your best interest then (as it sounded like it wasn't, but of course adjust as you see fit). I'd also push the signing bonus angle too even though they say it's not for internal candidates. Pretty sure they could come up with it for a transfer.
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Apr 15, 2021 02:59
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It's easy for me to say "I would turn it down and would absolutely refuse to ever take an effective pay cut," which I would, but your whole situation is a long way outside my experience/knowledge. Maybe there are good pragmatic reasons to accept this that I can't perceive or appreciate. But accepting this will just harden their conviction that they own you.
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Apr 15, 2021 03:01
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Parallelwoody posted:I do want to mention to the nurse that there's a bit more leverage than your standard job due to every place always needing nurses forever, so I'm not sure the regular rules apply with regards to accepting a counter offer and your ability to negotiate even in a lateral move. If you speak with HR and they say they can't do anything on pay, then just turn it down and tell them its not in your best interest then (as it sounded like it wasn't, but of course adjust as you see fit). I'd also push the signing bonus angle too even though they say it's not for internal candidates. Pretty sure they could come up with it for a transfer. Thanks for this. I do think there may be some room to work that angle, and I’m going to see if it will get me anywhere.
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Apr 15, 2021 03:06
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WTF is a 1% bonus target? Literally gently caress that. I would rather have 0% and not think about it. That is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen.(even 4% is a slap in the face imo) I am with Eric and would not really even consider the offer.
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Apr 15, 2021 03:09
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Xguard86 posted:I mean in this very thread we usually tell people to avoid that type of behavior. To be clear I'm not at all suggesting anyone do that. I'm saying to not be surprised when you get it for countering an offer. They're just trying to rattle you to see if you'll blink Every time I've countered they've acted shocked and let the air hang and I let it hang right back. They'll eventually say they'll have to call me back and a few hours later I have a higher offer.
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Apr 15, 2021 03:31
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Had a call with a recruiter today who didn't know all that much about the position he was recruiting for, but sure wanted me to name a number to submit with my resume. Reading this thread made it easy to stick with "I can't answer that until I understand the scope of the job". He countered with "Well can you tell me what you're making now so they have a ballpark idea?" and I LOLed. No, no I can not. Thanks thread
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Apr 15, 2021 03:40
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Xguard86 posted:The key thing to keep in mind is that most companies are designed like a Chinese room thought experiment. Process, layers, separation of concerns, incentive plans. These have evolved (or been designed) for the benefit of the company and to remove individual action.
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Apr 15, 2021 05:02
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spwrozek posted:WTF is a 1% bonus target? Literally gently caress that. I would rather have 0% and not think about it. That is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen.(even 4% is a slap in the face imo) I'm sorry, this isn't the only bonus that we have. This is just on top of other bonuses. I'm still a bit green when it comes to this whole compensation thing. So for context it's like a ~3% target for annual and ~6% target quarterly right now. The actual org bonus that I'm talking about is literally a flat amount contingent on factory performance, and the 4% is just what it is compared to my total compensation. I'm not sure if this is actually a huge deal or not. But a pay cut is a pay cut, and I think he can see that. I'm super on-the-fence about accepting this offer at this point. I don't want to come off as being owned, and if I do accept it then my own mindset is to start applying outside in the meantime. The only benefit to this job for me is it gets me in a different space outside of pure manufacturing. I suppose I have the weekend to really decide if I would take the position with the pay cut if things don't go in my favor. My mindset originally applying for this job was to treat it like an learning opportunity, where I would use it to get some experience in a field that I would work in at another place. I hadn't really considered what would happen if I were to take an apparent pay cut along with it. I think I want to stick with asking the manager and seeing what they can do about it. It's still a kind of negotiation, but I think phrasing it as an innocent question and playing dumb is probably my strongest play - after all, he hasn't given me the exact number what his org-specific bonuses actually amount to. Perhaps he can alleviate my concerns on that but if he knows it's a cut (and he should know - he came from my org as well long ago in the past) then I think it would be good to see what he says.
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Apr 15, 2021 06:31
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cerious posted:So I've been putting in some time into scoping out the other organization and talking to people and it looks like I have a lot less leverage than I was thinking originally... the other poster was right about internal moves having close to 0 leverage. It's a little disappointing but I'm not too surprised.
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Apr 15, 2021 13:07
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re "Taken aback" chat: It's absolutely bullshit, it is manipulative bullshit, and you can reasonably expect to hear it when negotiating about employment. There's some domain of "good faith" negotiation where two parties are interested in economic activity and are trying to discover if there are terms that are in both parties' mutual self interest to agree upon. And this NEVER. loving. HAPPENS. Everywhere else is combination of that, deception, obfuscation and emotional manipulation. The correct response was demonstrated, which is to shrug and stick to your guns. Grats goon!
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Apr 15, 2021 14:22
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Well stated. Funny and true.
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Apr 15, 2021 14:38
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:re "Taken aback" chat: It's absolutely bullshit, it is manipulative bullshit, and you can reasonably expect to hear it when negotiating about employment. There's some domain of "good faith" negotiation where two parties are interested in economic activity and are trying to discover if there are terms that are in both parties' mutual self interest to agree upon. And this NEVER. loving. HAPPENS. Everywhere else is combination of that, deception, obfuscation and emotional manipulation. If there was a way to add all this to OP / thread title I think we've arrived.
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Apr 15, 2021 15:34
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Got my first response to a bunch of online applications through LinkedIn and of course the initial email asks for a salary number so I what the thread recommended. We'll see what happens. I'm glad to be doing this while at a stable job that I enjoy. My current problems are that they're not paying me what I'm worth, very limited upward mobility, and the fact that what I really want to do is something I have very limited ability to do within my org, despite having a great manager who wants to help me get promoted. There's only so much he can do.
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Apr 15, 2021 19:40
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I'm in a situation here that I'm hoping I can get some advice on. I have been working for this company for almost 2 years now. We had a Performance Feedback session at the beginning of this year where I felt I was not provided a proper evaluation by my manager, essentially I felt that I was given an improper assessment so the promotion could be provided to the other Analyst on his team. Besides that negative incident, I have no desire to leave because I enjoy the work that I do, my colleagues, and my visa is sponsored by this company and I have a short amount of time until I am eligible for Permanent Residency. The current structure of the team goes like this: Senior Manager <- My former manager who I was not happy with in the above message Manager <- My new manager Senior Analyst Analyst <- I'm here We had two Senior Analysts on the team - one of them was recently promoted at the beginning of the year. The other Senior Analyst recently decided to resign and just earlier this week, my manager essentially asked me nicely if I wanted to take over his tasks. He told me that they are having difficulties finding the right candidate with the experience needed to take over the Senior role. I'm confident that the responsibilities that the former Senior Analyst had is something I can do and I believe my feedback that I received from my colleagues at the beginning of the year + the quality of my work shows this. Currently, there's an open job listing for the Senior Analyst position so I asked my manager if I could apply for it and be considered - he said no because it's hard to find suitable candidates for our niche field and the salary for the Senior position would attract better talent. He then proceeded to tell me that if I decide to take over the tasks that the former Senior Analyst took care of, he will be able to consider it during the promotion cycle at the end of the year and build a better case for me to be promoted. I had another meeting with the Senior Manager + Manager where the Senior Manager said similar things, "We think this will be a great opportunity for you.... a lot of visibility..... a lot of impact.... we can build a case for you to be promoted...." I was fully transparent with both of them - if they want me to take on the responsibilities of the Senior Analyst, I want to be considered as an internal hire for the open position. Not only will taking over the former Senior Analyst's task increase my workload and responsibilities, I will also have to train another analyst on my current tasks and ensure that it is being taken care of properly. At the moment, I have 0 desire to agree to take on these new responsibilities without something on paper - whether it is a raise to properly compensate me for my new responsibilities or an internal promotion of the open Senior Analyst position. I'm not worried about being fired as I work in a country with strong worker's rights and based on my feedback from my colleagues + the KPI's that I meet, there is no argument that can be made that I am not meeting expectations and should be let go. My Senior Manager told me that he will speak to the Director about this on Monday to see what can be done. To be honest, I don't think anything further will happen in terms of receiving what I want. What should I expect next? Did I handle this properly? Busy Bee fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 16, 2021 |
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Apr 16, 2021 19:07
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You did the right thing. They were absolutely going to stick you in the senior position without the title or pay indefinitely and come up with excuses why it can't be official yet every single time you have a review come up because they're cheap.
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Apr 16, 2021 19:30
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Stay until you get permanent residency, then find a new job but otherwise this: m0therfux0r posted:You did the right thing. They were absolutely going to stick you in the senior position without the title or pay indefinitely and come up with excuses why it can't be official yet every single time you have a review come up because they're cheap.
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Apr 16, 2021 19:51
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So I got on a call with the initial hiring manager and caved on a number. This is my first time trying to avoid the conversation and I did it via email but she implied that we couldn't move on without a number. The type of range I'm looking for is a way more than what I'm getting paid now and it's what I'm actually worth in the market so if I get even close to the number I gave I'll be super happy. I was proud of myself for straight-up saying that 4 weeks vacation is the floor and anything less would be a deal breaker. And I did it calmly, politely, and professionally. So yeah I'm a huge weenie on the salary number but I feel like I made progress on drawing a line in the sand for vacation.
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Apr 16, 2021 20:13
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Look sometimes you get got and you have to do what you have to do regarding expectations - so as long as you're saying a number that's market based that you are comfortable with I wouldn't stress about it too much. There's risk that you don't maximize but it it sounds like you've named a number with substantial upside for you.
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Apr 16, 2021 20:18
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Congrats on sticking to your guns with the four weeks vacation. I get told constantly from my boss and his boss (CEO) that I need to take my PTO throughout the year and not just save it up and use it during Christmas. This is because I take a lot of stuff home with me and they are trying to discourage that, lol. Right now I can have up to 2 weeks PTO but I accrue it at 1.54 hours per week. So I don't know if I should try for more PTO or a higher accrual rate or what.
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Apr 16, 2021 22:31
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I'm getting really annoyed by companies trying to lie about overtime and other conditions when I interview. I ask "how much overtime is there?", and instead of a number I hear some dribble about how they are revolutionising the industry and how that's not possible 9-5 and yeah get hosed I'm not falling for that poo poo again. what do they think is going to happen? I take the job and suddenly realise that I actually love unpaid overtime? in reality, I'm going to quit after two months when I realise the conditions aren't temporary. the company loses money, i lose time, everyone is unhappy. maybe it's like spam mails where they are accidentally filtering for people naive or desperate enough to believe a ridiculous story, and wasting everyone else's time. Slur edited out by moderator. Somebody fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Apr 18, 2021 |
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Apr 18, 2021 03:53
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Dongsturm posted:maybe it's like spam mails where they are accidentally filtering for people naive or desperate enough to believe a ridiculous story, and wasting everyone else's time. It's this, they don't want anyone who won't give them way more than they're paying for
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Apr 18, 2021 04:04
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Dongsturm posted:I'm getting really annoyed by companies trying to lie about overtime and other conditions when I interview. My goal for the next 6 months is to gain enough skills where i can be marketable enough to have the balls to ask this question and decide my next move based on the answer. As it is now I'm afraid of being labeled 'not a team player' if I even ask that question. Yes yes 'if the employer operates that way you don't want them to be your employer' but it's tough to think that way when most companies have a lot of unpaid overtime and jobs don't grow on trees for me.
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Apr 18, 2021 04:42
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Dongsturm posted:I'm getting really annoyed by companies trying to lie about overtime and other conditions when I interview. Yeah let's not use the now-edited-out word in BFC, thanks. I don't think there's a single subforum where that's acceptable.
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Apr 18, 2021 05:23
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