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Sanguinia posted:I can't wait to yell CHARGING STAR more. I got to do it so many times in this series, and now it seems to be Sam's go-to Cap Move since he's got that rocket pack. MvC4 with SamCap, and a redone Bionic Commando model to be Bucky when, Capcom? You can include the X-Men again so there’s no excuse, dammit.
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Apr 24, 2021 14:26
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I kind of like that Sam can't fight. When you can't just punch your way out of problems you kind of develop other tools, which are super useful when you run across a problem where punching makes things immediately worse in every possible way. Sam even calls it out in his speech. He's just a guy who's willing to try.
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Apr 24, 2021 14:36
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am0kgonzo posted:making new captain america struggle with a guy that got squashed by og captain america is certainly an interesting choice There was, like, an entire arc in the show about how being the strongest in the room isn't that important, and how specifically Captain America needs to be more than that. On the subject of power levels, one thing that I didn't really like that was obviously done for dramatic purposes - why was Karli at all a match for Walker? She could deal with him when she was powered up and he wasn't, but after he got juiced, he's a well trained, top notch soldier in the US military, and she's...a teenager.
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Apr 24, 2021 14:43
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An evenly matched struggle is symbolic of the characters viewpoints colliding and power levels are dumb. The action is in service of the story.
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Apr 24, 2021 14:47
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Azhais posted:Who needs Steve anyway? Lest we forget the literal second he discovered time travel he abandoned everything and everyone to go back in time and get his dick wet Saving the world three times and the universe once entitles one to take a lap around Peggy Carter's boudoir. edit - Plus, wielding Mjolnir proves he is worthy of Dat rear end. GORDON fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 14:54
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If the show was about actual logical power levels, it just becomes "Why does Bucky, the most experienced soldier, not simply beat the other super soldiers?" for basically every fight he's in. Combat is just a reflection of the character's point of view winning or losing in the narrative. Explosions are also a reflection of the view point.
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Apr 24, 2021 14:54
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Sentinel Red posted:MvC4 with SamCap, and a redone Bionic Commando model to be Bucky when, Capcom? You can include the X-Men again so there’s no excuse, dammit. Sam Cap would solve a lot of the problems og cap had preventing him from being top tier. He'd get flight, 8 way air dash, and dive kick by default. And have lasers and drones.
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Apr 24, 2021 14:59
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Casnorf posted:I kind of like that Sam can't fight. When you can't just punch your way out of problems you kind of develop other tools, which are super useful when you run across a problem where punching makes things immediately worse in every possible way. Sam even calls it out in his speech. He's just a guy who's willing to try. Agreed. The fact he's "normal" (expertly trained, of course) and going into the cage to fight super-powered humans and all that stuff really highlights his courage. It thematically follows Steve's drive that landed him the role originally, that he couldn't fight but still did so to stand up for his beliefs. Similarly stated above, power levels get tricky. Thor wasn't in Civil War because he could've just fried his opposition. And if Wanda went against the Flagsmashers, it would've been a slaughter. It's better if we have a range of Avengers so we can feel the stakes be it from All-Powerful Gods or lovely humans trying to pull strings.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:05
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Boxman posted:There was, like, an entire arc in the show about how being the strongest in the room isn't that important, and how specifically Captain America needs to be more than that. At least for the spoilers I don't think they ever got in a 1 on 1, he's always fighting her with other people interrupting. Which is fair on an ideological level anyway, and he ultimately abandons his revenge for actual heroism. coolusername posted:If the show was about actual logical power levels, it just becomes "Why does Bucky, the most experienced soldier, not simply beat the other super soldiers?" for basically every fight he's in. Combat is just a reflection of the character's point of view winning or losing in the narrative. Explosions are also a reflection of the view point. The answer at least to the Bucky thing is he's actively choosing not to use all his experience for much of the story because he does not want to be the Winter Soldier (personality) anymore. Whenever he gets actually serious he does wipe the floor with everyone around him except Walker, who at the time was having a breakdown and Bucky explicitly did not want to kill him (just take back the shield).
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Apr 24, 2021 15:05
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Ror posted:Sam using his wings to make a support bipod when he’s blocking with the shield is super rad. His suit was made in Wakanda, right? I wonder if the tech genius girl (Sheri?) put some "crazy intuitive" AI into his wings, Friday/Jarvis style. Because I was watching Captain America fight, and I was wondering how he could "push the buttons" so fast that made his wings do this, or rocket boosters do that, all while simultaneously flying, carrying a shield, downing a helicopter, avoiding blades, and shooting a gun. AI assisted suit would go a long way to explaining that. I hope RedWing ends up having a voice like Friday/Jarvis and it calls white people "colonizers."
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Apr 24, 2021 15:06
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Lord_Magmar posted:At least for the spoilers I don't think they ever got in a 1 on 1, he's always fighting her with other people interrupting. Which is fair on an ideological level anyway, and he ultimately abandons his revenge for actual heroism. Yeah, Bucky could easily stab everyone in the neck and call it a day. He is currently pulling his punches and trying not to kill, he is trying really hard to be different.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:13
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Lord_Magmar posted:At least for the spoilers I don't think they ever got in a 1 on 1, he's always fighting her with other people interrupting. Which is fair on an ideological level anyway, and he ultimately abandons his revenge for actual heroism. Yes, that's the point I'm making? The power levels are serviced to the characters and their motivation, so it doesn't make sense to judge Sam based on his pure fighting potential as a good or bad Captain America. An article nit-picking things like "He loses to Ant-man in Ant-man's title movie" and "He gets beaten by the Winter Soldier in Winter Soldier's title movie and also the movie where the Winter Soldier clowns an entire building of Avengers to establish himself as a threat" ignores the fact that it's not reality and power levels are an illusion serviced to the plot.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:15
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:An evenly matched struggle is symbolic of the characters viewpoints colliding and power levels are dumb. The action is in service of the story. Then its weird that the Sam/Batroc fight ended the way it did, since Batroc is effectively fighting for nothing, while Captain America is Captain America. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I think Walker just curb stomping everyone in a fight would be interesting because he represents the US in a closer form to what it actually is. Overwhelming might in a package that is capable of choosing the right thing to do, but can't be trusted to do so. But yeah I get your point. I just wasn't sure if there was a textual reason for it. Boxman fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 15:15
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Simulation883 posted:Agreed. The fact he's "normal" (expertly trained, of course) and going into the cage to fight super-powered humans and all that stuff really highlights his courage. It thematically follows Steve's drive that landed him the role originally, that he couldn't fight but still did so to stand up for his beliefs.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:20
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Boxman posted:why was Karli at all a match for Walker? She could deal with him when she was powered up and he wasn't, but after he got juiced, he's a well trained, top notch soldier in the US military, and she's...a teenager. My read on this is that Walker's PTSD and rage makes him sloppy.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:38
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It kind of fundamentally makes sense that Sam isn't some elite hand to hand fighter. I mean I guess the MCU is largely bruisers so its a little weird but Sam's not. So like he SHOULD get owned by the Winter Soldier or an elite black ops guy. And despite that he keeps surviving these fights and keeps going. And he's got other weapons. Its fine for every superhero to not be Batman or Superman.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:40
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Sam just needs a couple years training with Shang chi that’s all.
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Apr 24, 2021 15:43
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the single most defining characteristic of steve rogers is that he kept getting up after taking an rear end whipping tho
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Apr 24, 2021 15:44
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https://twitter.com/karabaic/status/1385264225694613508?s=20
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Apr 24, 2021 16:02
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Might have been an okay finale or not, I'm not sure since I was too distracted by the circus clown outfit they had Sam put on. What in the whole gently caress, it's so bad and they have a long sequence with extended closeups, and no one in the production did anything!
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Apr 24, 2021 16:05
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BrianWilly posted:At the end of the day, all the characters who were terrible at their jobs get to just...keep on doing that. The tv show wasn't allowed to change the status quo. Everything is still where it was at the end of endgame. Only difference is there's a guy named USAgent out there and falcon has changed his costume.
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Apr 24, 2021 16:25
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twistedmentat posted:You can also see it as saying "if your country has the power to do good, you should use it". Kilmonger was totally right that Wakanda should have used its power to help black people. gently caress, considering their tech is basically what the Kree are using, when the Slave Trade began the Wakandans probably had ww2 level tech and a bunch of white guys with muskets and swords aren't going to do much against an army with tanks and SMGs. Wakanda military tech and traditionhas always been "primitive" because they werent trying to be conquerers and prefer to not be the center of attention because nothing is going to stop the collective murder and sneering Imperialism of Europe and other powers looking to seize the chunk of rock you sat on. Look at the fate of China, unless they want to share the same fate as Imperial China instead of Japan they would have to stay out of it.
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Apr 24, 2021 16:32
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Terror Sweat posted:The tv show wasn't allowed to change the status quo. Everything is still where it was at the end of endgame. Only difference is there's a guy named USAgent out there and falcon has changed his costume. The end of WandaVision has her much more powerful, driven and possibly evil. Dead Vision is now alive White Vision. The end of Captain America and The Winter Solder has Sam established as Cap, reveals Bucky attempts to heal the pain, both to himself and that he caused. It also is the origin for the less competent / more relatable USAgent.
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Apr 24, 2021 16:36
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Soul Glo posted:the single most defining characteristic of steve rogers is that he kept getting up after taking an rear end whipping tho Yeah but before he got the serum he only ever got his rear end whooped and everyone was all 'steve if we send you to fight the nazis you'll be dead in five minutes'. The hero has to be worthy of the power but they still get the power in the end. Different perspectives are presented, but the show itselfs position on super powers seems to land closest to where Zemo is. E: in broader terms it feels a bit story limiting because Sam obviously can't go one on one with someone like Thanos Alchenar fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 17:12
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Terror Sweat posted:The tv show wasn't allowed to change the status quo. Everything is still where it was at the end of endgame. Only difference is there's a guy named USAgent out there and falcon has changed his costume.
For better and for worse this is what we can expect. We already know we're at least getting the "Vote Loki" outfit from the publicly available trailer that's been out for months and months.  Honestly if you guys really want a good preview just go check out whatever Marvel was publishing between 2013-2017.
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Apr 24, 2021 17:15
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If you take out the FAWS, Sam goes from getting the shield in Endgame to being Captain America, Bucky goes from apparently being free to confirmed being free and Zemo goes from being in German prison to being in the Raft, so no huge developments. Only Sharon would need some explaining, because she goes from not being in the CIA to being in the CIA, but Sam greasing the wheels for her will probably come up in Captain America 4 so it's probably not a big deal.
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Apr 24, 2021 17:17
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STAC Goat posted:It kind of fundamentally makes sense that Sam isn't some elite hand to hand fighter. I mean I guess the MCU is largely bruisers so its a little weird but Sam's not. So like he SHOULD get owned by the Winter Soldier or an elite black ops guy. And despite that he keeps surviving these fights and keeps going. And he's got other weapons. Yeah, but like, this is a world where a lot of us have watched The Boys (or Invincible, which is also really good) and now I've got this image of superpowered people just shattering regular humans in a splatter of guts. It was okay for Steve Rogers not to be the most powerful person in the room because he was still "super", maybe he couldn't fight Thanos 1v1 but he could at least survive getting knocked around by him. And the serum meant that he gets to be confident that he can deal with any street-level threats even if he isn't flying around and shooting lasers. New Cap is comparatively so low powered that he's barely able to handle this E-lister Batroc even with his magic Wakanda tech. Honestly, I really don't like Anthony Mackie in the role, I just don't think he's physically intimidating enough. Maybe if he were as big as Chris Evans I could buy that they could throw him into the same situations as original Cap -- big tough guy with a pocketful of tech-magic is probably comparable to a supersoldier without one -- but without the serum he feels like he's gonna have the same problem as John Walker did: he's a regular human way over his head in a world full of demi-gods and monsters, and he's not skilled enough to handle even human martial arts experts like the Dora Milaje or Batroc.
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Apr 24, 2021 17:32
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The difference between pre-serum Walker and Sam is that Sam can fly. He's more of a hybrid of Steve and Iron Man than he is straight up the second coming of Steve Rogers.
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Apr 24, 2021 17:43
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Yeah that's the intent.
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Apr 24, 2021 17:46
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Alchenar posted:
If the test of a hero is "who can stand up to a mad titan in a fist fight" its gonna be a real small list. Hulk got his rear end beat by Thanos. The Avengers have been much more about people playing roles and working together. Sam spent this entire series showing his greatest strength was his willingness and ability to reach out and make a connection when everyone else was itching for a fight. Its weird to me that he just got an upgrade in equipment, suit, and the shield and now he's a liability. Plus the show seemed to routinely show that he wasn't a liability. He and Bucky constantly bailed each other out. I mean, Sam Wilson doesn't have to be your favorite kind of hero or the right guy for every fight. But its a big rear end universe so he doesn't really have to be, does he?
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Apr 24, 2021 17:47
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STAC Goat posted:I mean, Sam Wilson doesn't have to be your favorite kind of hero or the right guy for every fight. But its a big rear end universe so he doesn't really have to be, does he? The title and role of "Captain America" has both textual and metatextual expectations to be a singular "great man" because we as an animal species are kind-of garbage at envisioning co-operation despite that being the foundational building block of our entire civilization and we literally just spent a straight decade with one guy repeatedly proving he was worthy of the title. This series was intended to prove why Sam deserved the mantle and to act as the focal point for a huge variety of characters-- the man who could command Gods, Kings, Aliens, and Geniuses-- and completely failed to deliver on it despite doing a solid job of showing why he was more deserving of the title than literally every other candidate. I'm a huge Anthony Mackie and Sam Wilson fan, incidentally. I do think everyone did their best here, but between Flag-Smasher rewrites and the general toxic waste dump that is US political discourse, they couldn't stick the landing. They found a great Captain America for 1998, but in 2021 you have to do a lot better than telling the Neoliberal power structure "hey man, try harder; oh btw POCs we gave you a side exhibit in the Smithsonian so we cool right?" mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 17:52
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Boxman posted:There was, like, an entire arc in the show about how being the strongest in the room isn't that important, and how specifically Captain America needs to be more than that. 90% of conflicts in the marvel universe get resolved by people getting punched seems kinda important all I'm saying is that Sam needs to get on the super juice asap, maybe things go wrong, he mutates and gets real wings and the ability to communicate with birds by chirping
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Apr 24, 2021 17:58
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It's worth noting that Steve wouldn't have been able to bring down that helicopter or keep the truck from falling over the edge. Sam brings a different skillset.
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Apr 24, 2021 18:00
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That's the new falcon you're thinking of
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Apr 24, 2021 18:01
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Phenotype posted:but without the serum he feels like he's gonna have the same problem as John Walker did: he's a regular human way over his head in a world full of demi-gods and monsters, and he's not skilled enough to handle even human martial arts experts like the Dora Milaje or Batroc. That’s why they had the: he push’s the truck back up onto the scaffolding scene. With all the serumed up folks watching stunned.
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Apr 24, 2021 18:01
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mr falcone is clearly iron man lite so this can be easily resolved with a quick trip to wakanda for a full suit upgrade or a stark style suit to up the tankiness
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Apr 24, 2021 18:02
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STAC Goat posted:I guess I don't see why that's a problem. Every story has limits. Steve Rogers couldn't go one on one with Thanos the first time they fought either. He put only a symbolic fight for a few dramatic seconds before Thanos tossed him aside. Cap only really did anything against Thanos when he had no infinity gems, Cap had an extra magic hammer as a weapon, and Thor and Iron Man were helping him gang up. Star Lord, Drax, and Nebula posed a mild threat in a similar fight sequence. And they, like Cap in Endgame, still didn't actually win that fight with Thanos. Iron Man, Cap, and Thor were defeated before reinforcements arrived. It's not about who can fight Thanos in a fist fight, it's that there's somewhat of a distinction between the gods and aliens Marvel villains and the street-level Marvel villains. Steve Rogers wasn't the strongest person when they were going up against gods and aliens, but you got the sense that Captain America was more than enough to handle the street-level stuff. Now, the new Captain America isn't even the clear victor against a lovely terrorist like Batroc anymore. (Is Batroc super powered at all? I'm assuming he's just a martial artist type.) I guess it's a matter of opinion whether you think the fact that Sam's got GUTS and COURAGE to do it anyway outweighs the 15-year-old kid inside of you who feels like Captain America should be stronger and tougher. The fight with Batroc kinda bummed me out a little from a film perspective too. Just was not a cool fight, too many cuts, action did not really flow very well. I don't know if it's Mackie or the fight coordinator or what.
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Apr 24, 2021 18:08
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just give him a full suit of some kind, I mean was the black panther serumed up?
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Apr 24, 2021 18:13
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live with fruit posted:It's worth noting that Steve wouldn't have been able to bring down that helicopter or keep the truck from falling over the edge. Sam brings a different skillset. Um. Steve punches a military jet to death, Falls 15 stories bouncing off girders, and prevents a helicopter from lifting off. E: Yeah exactly, I'm responding to live with fruit saying Steve wouldn't be able to... VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV Lord Frankenstyle fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Apr 24, 2021 |
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Apr 24, 2021 18:13
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Frankenstyle posted:Um. Steve punches a military jet to death, Falls 15 stories bouncing off girders, and prevents a helicopter from lifting off. he got the og strain, everyone else got mids at best
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Apr 24, 2021 18:15
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