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Rich is a cishet white dude who seems to be legitimately learning and trying. Like, there's no doubt in my mind that V was probably envisioned as 'male', got spun into an androgynous elf joke when the community questioned this(probably not in a pro-queer way), and sort of just canon'd into queer representation. The comic started in 2003 - not exactly the peak of trans rights knowledge. But he's learned and is trying to go with it, and pretty much has avoided more modern deliberate hate. Not to write this off as all 'fine and good' as a perfect excuse - it's lovely, but I guess in away 'retcon' into it kinda adds a sense of LGBTQ people were always there, they were just forced to hide from the eyes of the hetero-orthodoxy of society. Strawberry Pyramid posted:I like the implication that elven language just has more words and nuance to describe the gender spectrum and the relationships therein, and it just does not translate to our current version of English at all and comes all stilted such as "Are you alright, beloved child?" "Yes, thank you, parent!" I actually like this as a way of presenting other cultures and using representation to add depth, but putting it on the elves to me feels like, I dunno, the laziest way? (Again, as above, OOTS sort of fell into this idea IMO). The opposite extreme is Discworld dwarves where everyone is basically Gimli, and any performative gender role is a huge faux pas. A recurring plotline in the watch books is a dwarf daring to be openly female - like, not trans, just a cis dwarf woman. It feels like a fun world building exercise to me is to how each race/species would approach this in their culture, especially if you want to present a more positive fantasy of acceptance - not every LGBTQ story needs to be them overcoming bigotry, and I'd imagine some LGBTQ players would like their escapism to be one where they're considered normal by society, something that is sadly and truly a fantasy in today's world. Like maybe an Orc society that isn't aggressively masculine as much as literally not caring what you do beyond you swinging axe good. An Orc wanting to be a wizard is a graver cultural insult to them than being any sort of NB. The traditional depiction of halflings I think leans really well into the 'you do you' philosophy. Dragons and any longer lived race fall easily into the whole writing gender off as some sort of petty mortal fascination.
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Apr 26, 2021 09:46
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I have a lot of respect for Terry Pratchett managing to write what is basically a modern trans narrative entirely by accident, by following the “all dwarfs are Gimli” joke to its logical conclusion; how would an all-male culture respond to discovering that identifying as female is an option? He wrote those books in the 80s and 90s, and the female dwarf bits are basically indistinguishable from modern ones.
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Apr 26, 2021 11:22
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:rather than genderfluid (somewhere towards the middle of the spectrum)
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Apr 26, 2021 12:24
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Gynovore posted:Seriously, what was the point of the Girdle of Feminity/Masculinity anyway? Gender in D&D has no effect on gameplay at all.
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Apr 26, 2021 13:21
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Robviously posted:In early D&D the "/xx" was for exceptional strength. It was only available to fighters iirc and the higher the number, the higher the bonuses you got to hit and damage. 19 STR and up was generally only for monsters. blastron posted:Stats cap out at 18 during character creation. Some classes get to have better bonuses beyond that, though, and in order to generate that you roll percentile dice. (Remember, old D&D rolled stats.) Gynovore posted:One of the many weird rules from V1.0. If a fighter (and only a fighter) rolls a natural 18 on STR during character generation, they roll percentile dice to determine "exceptional strength", while is just like having more strength, except... the rules are weirder. maltesh posted:In First and Second Edition , if you were rolling Strength for a character that was a Fighter or similar, if you rolled up an 18, you would roll percentile dice to get a score between 18/01 and 18/00. Absurd Alhazred posted:Ah, people don't remember extraordinary strength. Shame! W.T. Fits posted:In pre-3rd Edition D&D, Fighters (and only Fighters) who had 18 Strength could roll a d100 to gain additional bonuses to hit and damage. Gygax figured this was more interesting than simply having Strength go to 19 or higher. lmao, DnD really is just good game design. Thanks for the replies, everyone!
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Apr 26, 2021 13:25
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So what happened if you were a male halfling with 17 strength and put the girdle on?
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Apr 26, 2021 13:39
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V always struck me as culturally agender and gender apathetic. From the little we have see it is very much implied that elves don't *have* genders. They have sexes with biological differences, one parent birthed the kids and there are some body shape differences in some people, but thats not really gender, after all - gender is about social identity, personal identity, social expectations, and a lot of other stuff that elves just dont seem to have, they dont seem to find biological sex important enough on a social level to really create that sort of construct around it, and probably think its just a peculiar quirk that humans and the other races use two different sorts of pronouns to refer to people, and that it doesn't really apply to them and so it doesn't matter what the other races describe them as because either way they're gonna act how they want.
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Apr 26, 2021 13:56
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V's kids were both adopted.
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Apr 26, 2021 14:49
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Strawberry Pyramid posted:V's kids were both adopted. Yeah, but new elves gotta come from somewhere, yeah? Long-lived though they may be, at the very least adventurers have a much more finite life span.
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Apr 26, 2021 14:52
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Young elves are actually grown via budding. It's known that what tree you graft your bud into influences their development, but it's unclear to what extent. Traditionally, citrus trees are said to encourage magical gifts in offspring but there's really no evidence.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:10
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V's kids weren't adopted, they were uplifted.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:13
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 I was looking for that post!
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Apr 26, 2021 16:15
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Then how the gently caress are half elves
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Apr 26, 2021 16:19
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Then how the gently caress are half elves i mean we've all heard of furries
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Apr 26, 2021 16:19
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You get regular elves from trees and half elves from shrubs.
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Apr 26, 2021 16:23
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Then how the gently caress are half elves You answer your own question.  Clearly if humans are the only ones who breed the normal way, it stands to reason they can breed with any one else to produce demihumans.wizzardstaff posted:V's kids weren't adopted, they were uplifted. The only question this raises is what's up with Drow. I don't think it makes sense for them to worship spiders if they come from spiders. I'm not sure how well it jives with elvish notions of superiority if they come from normal animals. I think it fits well for a fantasy setting race that fits the role that Elves play, but is a bit square peg/round hole with traditional depictions of fantasy elves. The halfling one though amusingly enough basically describes Kender and how all Kender relate to one particular Kender. I like that one a lot because they just seem to will themselves into existence like some kind of fey demigod.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:03
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Raenir Salazar posted:You answer your own question. I think it's secretly a better reskin of mind flayers than elves. -Procreation involves bodily transformation of a subject -Focus on knowledge and intelligence -Can adopt any species into the culture -Squids
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Apr 26, 2021 17:13
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Raenir Salazar posted:The halfling one though amusingly enough basically describes Kender and how all Kender relate to one particular Kender. I like that one a lot because they just seem to will themselves into existence like some kind of fey demigod. Been a looong time since I read any of the Main line of Dragonlance, let alone the side, and tri- novels, but I think this actually happened once. Wasn't a big thing, sort of a side, offhand thing. But otherwise, Kender themselves just do like the rabbits.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:19
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Discworld dwarves are interesting and valid to read as commentary on gender identity but Pratchett's pretty obvious intention is for them to be read as allegory for Muslims, with Cheery's journey echoing moving away from strict interpretation of modesty laws while still retaining her identity as a member of that community.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:28
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Johnny Aztec posted:Been a looong time since I read any of the Main line of Dragonlance, let alone the side, and tri- novels, but I think this actually happened once. Wasn't a big thing, sort of a side, offhand thing. I meant more like, because the description of halflings as being story spinners seems more direct to the Hobbit while haflings in like Forgotten Realms etc tend to be a bit less about their Tolkien depiction; while Kender are much more consistently talltale spinners at least until the Dragocalypse and behave amusingly very similarly to that description because all Kender like to relate to any sufficiently famous Kender.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:30
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There's a Bill Brasky in every halfling community.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:32
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fool of sound posted:Discworld dwarves are interesting and valid to read as commentary on gender identity but Pratchett's pretty obvious intention is for them to be read as allegory for Muslims, with Cheery's journey echoing moving away from strict interpretation of modesty laws while still retaining her identity as a member of that community. I think you've done that "this interpretation I invented makes sense to me so it's the only one allowed" thing that people do on the internet.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:37
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fool of sound posted:Discworld dwarves are interesting and valid to read as commentary on gender identity but Pratchett's pretty obvious intention is for them to be read as allegory for Muslims, with Cheery's journey echoing moving away from strict interpretation of modesty laws while still retaining her identity as a member of that community. I thought it was originally a commentary on feminism and self-expression as a woman? By the time Thud came around there was definitely a flavour of strict religious/cultural restriction though, yeah. I think on a meta level it says something about how bigotry isn't just a factor of being older than the issue at hand, too. Pratchett was writing sympathetic stories about trans people (even if he did not understand he was doing so at the time - Cheery and Hamcrusher are trans in having been assigned male but identifying female later in life) by accident, entirely as a result of being a good guy in general.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:38
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Raenir Salazar posted:The halfling one though amusingly enough basically describes Kender and how all Kender relate to one particular Kender. I like that one a lot because they just seem to will themselves into existence like some kind of fey demigod. You are talking about "Uncle Trapspringer" which is more just someone that all Kender wish they were related to, and so they act like they all are. Toward the end of the main series after Tasslehoff becomes a big drat hero that saves the entire world from Chaos, many Kender start talking about how they have an Uncle Tasslehoff. So it is sort of the opposite, since both of those people existed before people started to claim they were related.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:40
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don't even get me started on Monstrous Regiment
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Apr 26, 2021 17:43
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ikanreed posted:I think you've done that "this interpretation I invented makes sense to me so it's the only one allowed" thing that people do on the internet. Nope, you failed to read the opening clause of my post. Tenebrais posted:I thought it was originally a commentary on feminism and self-expression as a woman? Yeah, I agree that the reading is valid even if it wasn't his intended metaphor. He clearly has a lot of sympathy of individual expression and identity in either reading.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:50
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There are plenty of RL cultures where everyone in the community who is older than you is uncle/auntie, and everyone around your own age is cousin, regardless of blood relation. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:52
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ikanreed posted:I think you've done that "this interpretation I invented makes sense to me so it's the only one allowed" thing that people do on the internet. It's definitely a valid interpretation, especially in the later books where the friction between the secular and traditionalist dwarves becomes a bigger plot point. It doesn't mean that the struggle for dwarven womens' rights isn't also a trans allegory. Things can be two things.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:53
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Pratchett's dwarves evolve over time - in Men at Arms they're implied to be Irish or Welsh (the menu in the dwarven chip shop is written in "Oggham"). The cuisine is variations on British isles full breakfasts, stargazy pie, pastries, etc. The Arab metaphor at this point is Klatch. Trolls, on the other hand, are the ones talkin' like dis and distributing drugs. Only in Night Watch does it evolve into dwarfs selling all-night rat pie and chips shops, and then the allusion starts getting really heavy-handed in Thud
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Apr 26, 2021 17:55
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Also the dwarf homeland is sitting on top of great reserves of much-sought-after natural fuel and therefore all the major powers want to influence their politics to ensure that the imports keep coming. Not to mention the highly legalistic religious tradition.
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Apr 26, 2021 17:58
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I still thing the best depiction of elves is Dorf Fortress elves. Nature loving hippies that never die, so the ensuing population explosions causes widespread famine, where the elves war and consume the lesser races in order to stave off starvation.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:56
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Tenebrais posted:I thought it was originally a commentary on feminism and self-expression as a woman? I think you mean Ardent. Hamcrusher's the murder victim in Thud
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Apr 26, 2021 19:21
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I liked the book best where it opens up with rumors of how the dwarves have figured out a way to turn lead to gold and then it turns out that they just invented movable type and want to make money doing publishing work. Pratchett never did get around to Carrot's destiny with his conspicuously non-magical sword. Raenir Salazar posted:The only question this raises is what's up with Drow. I don't think it makes sense for them to worship spiders if they come from spiders. I'm not sure how well it jives with elvish notions of superiority if they come from normal animals. I think it fits well for a fantasy setting race that fits the role that Elves play, but is a bit square peg/round hole with traditional depictions of fantasy elves. Honestly I don't think there's anything that wreaks more of a superiority complex than taking it upon yourself to take this wretched lesser being and molding it into a copy of yourself. If anything it pushes things further away from the friends-to-nature wood elves archetype.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:25
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SlothfulCobra posted:Pratchett never did get around to Carrot's destiny with his conspicuously non-magical sword. Lol gently caress. I know he died years ago but somehow the reality of it never set in until this post just now where you made me realize Carrot and Angua are never going to get any kind of resolution. poo poo.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:30
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Donkringel posted:I still thing the best depiction of elves is Dorf Fortress elves. Nature loving hippies that never die, so the ensuing population explosions causes widespread famine, where the elves war and consume the lesser races in order to stave off starvation.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:32
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Lol gently caress. I know he died years ago but somehow the reality of it never set in until this post just now where you made me realize Carrot and Angua are never going to get any kind of resolution. Terry Pratchett died?!
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Apr 26, 2021 19:39
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ZearothK posted:Terry Pratchett died?! In early 2015 after a long struggle with Alzheimer's
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Apr 26, 2021 19:43
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Cup Runneth Over posted:In early 2015 after a long struggle with Alzheimer's drat. I think this is the second time I learn about someone dying from this thread.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:43
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Then how the gently caress are half elves As laid out in a follow-up post, half-elves are what you get when an elf does the elf-training process on a human; it doesn't produce a full elf because humans already have a pre-existing sense of personhood.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:43
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Lol gently caress. I know he died years ago but somehow the reality of it never set in until this post just now where you made me realize Carrot and Angua are never going to get any kind of resolution. I thought that Carrot low-key did everything to NOT have an epic destiny and just be a normal guy. It is its own conclusion. Dude chose his own path and he's doing what he loves with the people he loves, looking away every time life (magic?) tried to steer him into craving more.
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Apr 26, 2021 19:47
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