PawParole posted:

Labour, as in the Labour movement, hasn't held power since 1979. It could have held power in the 90s, but the Party buckled under internal pressure from backroom boys and very openly became the 'heirs of Thatcher' ie not Thatcherites explicitly but a clear downstream interpretation of the world she set up.

After 2019, lessons should have been learned, but both wings of the Party still believe they have the right answers and that the other wing is sabotaging them. Because both sides believe this, they do indeed sabotage one another, although neither actually has the right answer.

Labour doesn't have a base in the media. Like out of all the papers it has one sure supporter, The Mirror. Guardian has consistently over the years sided with Liberals/SDP/Lib Dems when push comes to shove. This makes getting the message out incredibly difficult, the only time they have successfully got the message out in recent years was in 2017 when May poo poo the bed so badly with her manifesto that she had the media, who had slaughtered Corbyn's manifesto, leaked a few days before, as "worse than 1983's 'longest suicide note in history'", instead turn on her. This all came down to money, as her plans for elderly care would have liquidated the chattering class' property wealth.

Some of it does come down to 'idpol' but not in the sense people think. Most working-class people I sincerely believe aren't against minorities, whether ethnic or sexual. They are against however a parochial, hand-washing, liberal approach to it, which is to tell the white working-classes they are guilty. The white middle-classes cast the working-classes as bigots to absolve themselves, despite the working-classes having multi-ethnic neighbours, whereas white middle-classes intentionally ghettoise themselves. The Labour Party consistently aligns itself with the middle-class interpretation of race relations, and telling the average voter they should feel guilty is poison, not least when those voters live in some of the most deprived areas of the country and have done sod all, bar not frequent an Islington Eritrean restaurant and write about it for The Guardian.

Brexit ties into that imo for the reason above more than any actual politics on Europe. The Remainers have spent 5 years basing opposition to Brexit as a moral position, that Leavers are a rotten racist sort, while they take support of a business cartel to South Korean stan culture levels and ignore you know, letting thousands of Africans drown in the Med, which the EU chose to do when it refused to continue funding Italian state rescues and patrols.

People are tribal and once you break the taboo there's no going back. There's a lot of people out there who could never, ever bring themselves to vote Tory, but they've had 15 years of being offered Tory surrogates like UKIP and Brexit Party, who both offered populism and an alternative while not going into so much detail it became some profound choice to vote for them. Again both parties were painted as 'evil'. Once you've half-broken the taboo, you can break the taboo properly, which they did in 2019 voting for Tories. None of them are going to turn around and say in 2024 'that was a one off' or ever feel they morally can't vote Tory again.

Because of the nature of many of these seats and councils, who have been Labour... forever, there's a genuine feeling Labour are the party of power and the Tories are the opposition. The reason the Tories can pick up votes 11 years into power is because actually these places have never, ever voted Tory. For most you have to go back to abolished seats that covered the area in like the 20s to get a non-Labour MP.

Then there's the generational shift. Again, we haven't had the Labour Movement in power since 1979. Anyone under 40 has never lived even as a baby through one of those governments. 40 years of unchallenged neoliberalism has changed the sentiments on society and what one even wants. So this becomes a desire to shift society rather than politics even. Like people forget when Blair got into power his sincere desire was to turn the UK into a one party state, with New Labour floating where public opinion went, he didn't win an ideological battle-winning power, he promised not to rock the boat. He promised to do as people wished. If you're British you'll remember there were several bad train crashes in the late 90s / early 00s, because his brains trusts were telling him the public didn't care about rail funding lol.

The Tories reacted to Blair by bringing in Cameron, a Blair clone, and saying what the public wanted to hear. The Tories had changed. Hug a hoodie. etc. They got into power and held on to it and promised to be whatever the public wanted.

The state can't have two 'Parties of Power' and the Tories pipped Labour to it in 2010. Labour need to figure out a new message for a country that has had 40 years of neoliberalism being the status quo, and they can't rehash the promise of the 90s which got them into power, of 'we will do what the Tories did but without the sleaze' because nobody cares anymore, or rather, neoliberalism has rotted their sense of social obligation so much they care on a personal level but not a political one.

There's a lot of hard truths and Labour's factions won't address any of them, insisting they have the right answer. In fact it's both. 'we lost 2019 because of Starmer's Brexit policy!!' maybe, but I know several people who left Labour 'emotionally' in 2016 when Corbyn, on record as thinking the EU are anti-democratic crooks, campaigned to Remain. By 2019 they were voting Brexit Party or Tory. I mention this as it's a hard truth that both sides faltered but neither will acknowledge their own responsibility.

tl;dr hostile press, neoliberalism, societal shift, wrong (middle-class not working-class) brand of 'social justice', and pure hubris from all the factions in the Party. Labour haven't 'learned lessons' because they all think they are the group to teach the lesson and that the problem is other factions won't listen.

Kaveman posted:

the problem is that people are morons

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

i think this is reasonably insightful and generally has lessons for left movements the world over. leftists tend to assume that the people want left policy because 1) it polls well (when phrased in certain ways) and 2) it's so self-evidently, obviously better than the alternative, i mean come on, it just makes sense, look at how much we pay for health care compared to every country in the world... the US left runs into this a lot with Medicare for All because the US healthcare system is such an incredibly obvious tire fire it's literally unbelievable for many leftists that anyone would prefer it. so leftists assume that the only reason they don't win is that people don't understand their policies.

what they're missing is that 40 years of neoliberalism hasn't just changed the way government interacts with people, it's fundamentally altered the way people perceive government and society. it's permanently altered their expectations. american voters understand that interacting with the health care system sucks, but they just straight-up don't believe that it's possible to be otherwise. if you tell them a better world is possible they will resent you for lying to them. british voters have similar problems. corbyn's message was "if we all try to take care of each other, we will make a better world for everyone" and it failed because a majority of british voters not only don't think that's possible but don't think it's desirable. like they fundamentally do not believe that it is their job to take care of anyone else's problems, nor is it anyone else's job to help them take care of theirs. outside of family or church ties, or other local community groups, there is no sense of shared civic obligation. there really is no such thing as society: that wasn't just a descriptive statement from thatcher, it was a prescriptive one, and thatcherism made sure it became the truth.

Jose posted:

seriously has he been at the helium

https://twitter.com/alexnunns/status/1390691539224080390?s=20

Jose posted:

https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1390685349341548547?s=20

Clyde Radcliffe posted:

Jose posted:

lol at how many of them mispell his name

https://twitter.com/JLPartnersPolls/status/1390730905866674181?s=20

PawParole posted:

Labour, as in the Labour movement, hasn't held power since 1979. It could have held power in the 90s, but the Party buckled under internal pressure from backroom boys and very openly became the 'heirs of Thatcher' ie not Thatcherites explicitly but a clear downstream interpretation of the world she set up.

After 2019, lessons should have been learned, but both wings of the Party still believe they have the right answers and that the other wing is sabotaging them. Because both sides believe this, they do indeed sabotage one another, although neither actually has the right answer.

Labour doesn't have a base in the media. Like out of all the papers it has one sure supporter, The Mirror. Guardian has consistently over the years sided with Liberals/SDP/Lib Dems when push comes to shove. This makes getting the message out incredibly difficult, the only time they have successfully got the message out in recent years was in 2017 when May poo poo the bed so badly with her manifesto that she had the media, who had slaughtered Corbyn's manifesto, leaked a few days before, as "worse than 1983's 'longest suicide note in history'", instead turn on her. This all came down to money, as her plans for elderly care would have liquidated the chattering class' property wealth.

Some of it does come down to 'idpol' but not in the sense people think. Most working-class people I sincerely believe aren't against minorities, whether ethnic or sexual. They are against however a parochial, hand-washing, liberal approach to it, which is to tell the white working-classes they are guilty. The white middle-classes cast the working-classes as bigots to absolve themselves, despite the working-classes having multi-ethnic neighbours, whereas white middle-classes intentionally ghettoise themselves. The Labour Party consistently aligns itself with the middle-class interpretation of race relations, and telling the average voter they should feel guilty is poison, not least when those voters live in some of the most deprived areas of the country and have done sod all, bar not frequent an Islington Eritrean restaurant and write about it for The Guardian.

Brexit ties into that imo for the reason above more than any actual politics on Europe. The Remainers have spent 5 years basing opposition to Brexit as a moral position, that Leavers are a rotten racist sort, while they take support of a business cartel to South Korean stan culture levels and ignore you know, letting thousands of Africans drown in the Med, which the EU chose to do when it refused to continue funding Italian state rescues and patrols.

People are tribal and once you break the taboo there's no going back. There's a lot of people out there who could never, ever bring themselves to vote Tory, but they've had 15 years of being offered Tory surrogates like UKIP and Brexit Party, who both offered populism and an alternative while not going into so much detail it became some profound choice to vote for them. Again both parties were painted as 'evil'. Once you've half-broken the taboo, you can break the taboo properly, which they did in 2019 voting for Tories. None of them are going to turn around and say in 2024 'that was a one off' or ever feel they morally can't vote Tory again.

Because of the nature of many of these seats and councils, who have been Labour... forever, there's a genuine feeling Labour are the party of power and the Tories are the opposition. The reason the Tories can pick up votes 11 years into power is because actually these places have never, ever voted Tory. For most you have to go back to abolished seats that covered the area in like the 20s to get a non-Labour MP.

Then there's the generational shift. Again, we haven't had the Labour Movement in power since 1979. Anyone under 40 has never lived even as a baby through one of those governments. 40 years of unchallenged neoliberalism has changed the sentiments on society and what one even wants. So this becomes a desire to shift society rather than politics even. Like people forget when Blair got into power his sincere desire was to turn the UK into a one party state, with New Labour floating where public opinion went, he didn't win an ideological battle-winning power, he promised not to rock the boat. He promised to do as people wished. If you're British you'll remember there were several bad train crashes in the late 90s / early 00s, because his brains trusts were telling him the public didn't care about rail funding lol.

The Tories reacted to Blair by bringing in Cameron, a Blair clone, and saying what the public wanted to hear. The Tories had changed. Hug a hoodie. etc. They got into power and held on to it and promised to be whatever the public wanted.

The state can't have two 'Parties of Power' and the Tories pipped Labour to it in 2010. Labour need to figure out a new message for a country that has had 40 years of neoliberalism being the status quo, and they can't rehash the promise of the 90s which got them into power, of 'we will do what the Tories did but without the sleaze' because nobody cares anymore, or rather, neoliberalism has rotted their sense of social obligation so much they care on a personal level but not a political one.

There's a lot of hard truths and Labour's factions won't address any of them, insisting they have the right answer. In fact it's both. 'we lost 2019 because of Starmer's Brexit policy!!' maybe, but I know several people who left Labour 'emotionally' in 2016 when Corbyn, on record as thinking the EU are anti-democratic crooks, campaigned to Remain. By 2019 they were voting Brexit Party or Tory. I mention this as it's a hard truth that both sides faltered but neither will acknowledge their own responsibility.

tl;dr hostile press, neoliberalism, societal shift, wrong (middle-class not working-class) brand of 'social justice', and pure hubris from all the factions in the Party. Labour haven't 'learned lessons' because they all think they are the group to teach the lesson and that the problem is other factions won't listen.

Cerebral Bore posted:

i'm grateful that kerth starmo has once again shown that centrism is a waste and a mess

Shogi posted:

I miss [...] Corbyn

Mantis42 posted:

the labour right is electable if you loving vote for them

Clyde Radcliffe posted:

Often Abbreviated posted:

only polling people who've been voting Tory for 50+ years is standard Labour procedure, you simpleton, you idiot. I bet you went to a polytechnic.

Rollie Fingers posted:

Labour's been so obsessed with the anti-semitism witch hunt above everything else that they've ignored other ethnic minorities

Looks like they're losing the non-white vote as well ^_^

PawParole posted:

https://twitter.com/Audreva_/status/1390717543078367235

Communist Thoughts posted:

corbyn lost two generals and i dont remember how all the locals went for him, but the last lot were savage

so imo its only fair we let kier have the same except its just back to back disasters instead of a near miss


whoa, really????? in the UK?

PawParole posted:

https://twitter.com/Audreva_/status/1390717543078367235

PawParole posted:

Labour, as in the Labour movement, hasn't held power since 1979. It could have held power in the 90s, but the Party buckled under internal pressure from backroom boys and very openly became the 'heirs of Thatcher' ie not Thatcherites explicitly but a clear downstream interpretation of the world she set up.

After 2019, lessons should have been learned, but both wings of the Party still believe they have the right answers and that the other wing is sabotaging them. Because both sides believe this, they do indeed sabotage one another, although neither actually has the right answer.

Labour doesn't have a base in the media. Like out of all the papers it has one sure supporter, The Mirror. Guardian has consistently over the years sided with Liberals/SDP/Lib Dems when push comes to shove. This makes getting the message out incredibly difficult, the only time they have successfully got the message out in recent years was in 2017 when May poo poo the bed so badly with her manifesto that she had the media, who had slaughtered Corbyn's manifesto, leaked a few days before, as "worse than 1983's 'longest suicide note in history'", instead turn on her. This all came down to money, as her plans for elderly care would have liquidated the chattering class' property wealth.

Some of it does come down to 'idpol' but not in the sense people think. Most working-class people I sincerely believe aren't against minorities, whether ethnic or sexual. They are against however a parochial, hand-washing, liberal approach to it, which is to tell the white working-classes they are guilty. The white middle-classes cast the working-classes as bigots to absolve themselves, despite the working-classes having multi-ethnic neighbours, whereas white middle-classes intentionally ghettoise themselves. The Labour Party consistently aligns itself with the middle-class interpretation of race relations, and telling the average voter they should feel guilty is poison, not least when those voters live in some of the most deprived areas of the country and have done sod all, bar not frequent an Islington Eritrean restaurant and write about it for The Guardian.

Brexit ties into that imo for the reason above more than any actual politics on Europe. The Remainers have spent 5 years basing opposition to Brexit as a moral position, that Leavers are a rotten racist sort, while they take support of a business cartel to South Korean stan culture levels and ignore you know, letting thousands of Africans drown in the Med, which the EU chose to do when it refused to continue funding Italian state rescues and patrols.

People are tribal and once you break the taboo there's no going back. There's a lot of people out there who could never, ever bring themselves to vote Tory, but they've had 15 years of being offered Tory surrogates like UKIP and Brexit Party, who both offered populism and an alternative while not going into so much detail it became some profound choice to vote for them. Again both parties were painted as 'evil'. Once you've half-broken the taboo, you can break the taboo properly, which they did in 2019 voting for Tories. None of them are going to turn around and say in 2024 'that was a one off' or ever feel they morally can't vote Tory again.

Because of the nature of many of these seats and councils, who have been Labour... forever, there's a genuine feeling Labour are the party of power and the Tories are the opposition. The reason the Tories can pick up votes 11 years into power is because actually these places have never, ever voted Tory. For most you have to go back to abolished seats that covered the area in like the 20s to get a non-Labour MP.

Then there's the generational shift. Again, we haven't had the Labour Movement in power since 1979. Anyone under 40 has never lived even as a baby through one of those governments. 40 years of unchallenged neoliberalism has changed the sentiments on society and what one even wants. So this becomes a desire to shift society rather than politics even. Like people forget when Blair got into power his sincere desire was to turn the UK into a one party state, with New Labour floating where public opinion went, he didn't win an ideological battle-winning power, he promised not to rock the boat. He promised to do as people wished. If you're British you'll remember there were several bad train crashes in the late 90s / early 00s, because his brains trusts were telling him the public didn't care about rail funding lol.

The Tories reacted to Blair by bringing in Cameron, a Blair clone, and saying what the public wanted to hear. The Tories had changed. Hug a hoodie. etc. They got into power and held on to it and promised to be whatever the public wanted.

The state can't have two 'Parties of Power' and the Tories pipped Labour to it in 2010. Labour need to figure out a new message for a country that has had 40 years of neoliberalism being the status quo, and they can't rehash the promise of the 90s which got them into power, of 'we will do what the Tories did but without the sleaze' because nobody cares anymore, or rather, neoliberalism has rotted their sense of social obligation so much they care on a personal level but not a political one.

There's a lot of hard truths and Labour's factions won't address any of them, insisting they have the right answer. In fact it's both. 'we lost 2019 because of Starmer's Brexit policy!!' maybe, but I know several people who left Labour 'emotionally' in 2016 when Corbyn, on record as thinking the EU are anti-democratic crooks, campaigned to Remain. By 2019 they were voting Brexit Party or Tory. I mention this as it's a hard truth that both sides faltered but neither will acknowledge their own responsibility.

tl;dr hostile press, neoliberalism, societal shift, wrong (middle-class not working-class) brand of 'social justice', and pure hubris from all the factions in the Party. Labour haven't 'learned lessons' because they all think they are the group to teach the lesson and that the problem is other factions won't listen.

Kaveman posted:

The new tory 2019 voters aren't holding their nose. They're gleefully revelling in the fact that they can openly be racist tory ghouls now

V. Illych L. posted:

corbyn lost one general and had a hung parliament in another. trying to reframe 2017 as a loss is incredibly stupid, not to mention counterproductive

you're not an idiot, stop having idiot takes please

Communist Thoughts posted:

So who became pm in 2017?

I will never stop the bad takes but trying to say labour didn't lose the election where they didn't get to assume power... Who is that for?

Nieuw Amsterdam posted:

In the UK this failed and the Tories are now the party of the working class AND the professional & managerial class.

Communist Thoughts posted:

*awkwardly loud drunk pub voice*

Answer the question: who became PM after the election?