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well i said 60 because you would be happy with like 55, and saying 60 gives you both a win. they will probably hard counter you (eg no it's 55 same as we offered before) if they don't agree to your number and top of the range can be psychologically difficult for them to say yes to. you are trying to make it easy for them to say yes. but go for 62 if you want, no reason not to. i just think you're more likely to end up on their original number if you do top of the range.
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May 10, 2021 21:29
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Dik Hz posted:First off, Bantas are the creatures in Return of the Jedi. Uggh.... and I thought your comp package smelled bad on the outside!
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May 10, 2021 22:34
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Sundae posted:Uggh.... and I thought your comp package smelled bad on the outside! New thread title?
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May 10, 2021 22:40
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Sundae posted:Uggh.... and I thought your comp package smelled bad on the outside! Nice try, but we all know that line referred to Ewoks in Attack of the Clones
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May 11, 2021 02:05
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Sundae posted:Uggh.... and I thought your comp package smelled bad on the outside! 
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May 11, 2021 02:12
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Having just come through a very nasty situation (end of fixed term multi year contract, offered permanent role in dead end role with pay cut, nobody else hiring), some thoughts on how to navigate job reverses and come out ahead. 1. Be VERY clear on your priorities. Mine were, in descending order (1) stay employed; (2) stay in current job long enough to collect some specific, valuable benefits (which in a magnificent gently caress you move were due to vest exactly one day after the end of my fixed term contract); (3) avoid being bound by new contract while I see if there is anything else. 2. Ruthlessly suppress your ego. Did it feel like poo poo to thank my employer for offering me a demotion and a pay cut? Yup. Did I do it anyway? Yup. How? I spent ages telling myself all the good points (get paid, still a prestigious job, interesting work) until I believed them, and didn’t stop until I signed with the new place. 3. Know the players and their priorities. Broadly I had my boss, a former work peer who didn’t want me to be a contender for his job but did want me to stick around and do mine, and HR, who just wanted an easy life. My boss wasn’t going to chase me down to sign paperwork so long as the big stuff was going well (which it was). HR wouldn’t make independent decisions about my new contract. I sent them a lot of small comments and questions on the contract at appropriate intervals. Not my fault if they were so slow to approve them that I ended up still working and being asked to do stuff without a contract in force. 4. Control your emotional state. Until I had the draft contract from HR I wasn’t sure if they would honor the new deal. Once I had it I was relaxed and could actually negotiate other opportunities without the pressure of worrying what happens next. 5. Strategically put yourself in a vulnerable position. This has to be used really carefully but can be very powerful. Basically, a key problem in negotiations with someone new (in my case my new employer) is usually trust. If you are dealing with someone who you are confident is basically trustworthy but doesn’t know if you are, ask for everything you want except security - let them control the timetable and build in some get outs for them so they don’t have to worry that you are trying to con them into signing something fast. Once you trust each other, those issues can then fall away and you can get the deal you wanted and the security too, without anyone being worse off. (NOTE: trust is something that is only capable of existing in relation to individuals. Don’t ever do this with someone who doesn’t need to value the relationship going forward EG an HR person at a corporate). End result was that I got what I wanted even if it was utterly terrifying for a long period. Found another role with a 10% raise on base plus a very chunky equity component, am leaving on good terms after getting paid a bonus for working an extra period (which counts as continuous thus letting me get my vesting) and never got bound by the new contract. I mean I probably aged 10 years in the past six weeks but totally worth it. E: one final point that people have mentioned before but that it’s easy to forget when you’re getting started: you’re always negotiating with a specific individual; the person who can say “yes” to whatever it is that you want. If that’s not the person sitting opposite you then you are not negotiating. Conversations with HR are almost never negotiations. Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 06:17 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 06:09
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Absurd Alhazred posted:New thread title? Yes please
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May 11, 2021 18:32
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Does anybody have advice for negotiating a job offer where the majority of comp comes as a (P&L based) bonus? I started my current role as an intern so I haven't had any experience negotiating from a position where my skills are in demand. For context, I work in finance and I'm interviewing for my first position where I'd have my own P&L. Very unsure what typical terms would be for the new position.
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May 11, 2021 20:34
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I have been going back and forth with a recruiter this morning regarding a new position. Of course she asked what my salary expectations were, I replied that I would need to evaluate the entire offer holistically (benefit costs, 401k match etc) before making a statement regarding this. She came back with a target base salary which is about 25% less than what I make right now, with incentives which could reduce that to about 9% less than what I make now. The 401k match is twice what I get at the moment. She asked if I was still interested in interviewing based on this information. I am confident that I could nail this interview and excel at this job; the role is essentially the same as what I am currently doing, but for a much larger company with more room for growth. At the same time I am unwilling to take a pay decrease. I believe the right move is to confirm my interest and move forward with the interview, get them sold on me and then negotiate a higher salary. Am I correct?
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May 13, 2021 17:05
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Sock The Great posted:I have been going back and forth with a recruiter this morning regarding a new position. Of course she asked what my salary expectations were, I replied that I would need to evaluate the entire offer holistically (benefit costs, 401k match etc) before making a statement regarding this. She came back with a target base salary which is about 25% less than what I make right now, with incentives which could reduce that to about 9% less than what I make now. The 401k match is twice what I get at the moment. You'll just burn bridges and waste your time. Edit: That being said, what is your desired outcome here?
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May 13, 2021 17:17
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Dik Hz posted:Just walk away. If they're that far off the market wage, nothing good will come of the job. Ultimately, I am ready to move on from my current company. The culture/leadership here is really terrible and despite a 30% increase in sales over the past 12 months, our particular department (which is responsible for technical and commercial support of the sales team), is the same size as it was in 2016. We all just work ~50 hour weeks now. However, I would definitely be willing to put up with this for a few more months while I explore other opportunities.
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May 13, 2021 17:25
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Dik is right. Walk away. As a general and very reliable rule of life, if the situation begins with the words "I have been going back and forth with a recruiter" then 99% of the time the only correct answer is 
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May 13, 2021 17:39
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Walk away. Tell the recruiter that the pay is not in line with the market and look elsewhere.
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May 13, 2021 17:42
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I'm at the near-final interview stage for a senior director role at another digital agency. Their talent person, who just stepped in to the process, called me to tell me that they had received very positive feedback thus far, and wanted to schedule me for an interview with their president, but that based on my lack of experience with their particular vertical focus that they were looking as hiring me as director instead. I didn't really know what to say and so just kinda blustered my way through it saying this was negotiable but that I'd prefer the SD role, but I was thinking - 'you interviewed me for a senior director role, you liked me, and now you want to demote me before I even start?'. Of course they also used this as a way to anchor their prospective pay towards the absolute bottom of what a director would earn ($165k with 5-10 percent bonus) instead of the $200k I was targeting as SD. Is this common? How should I respond/have responded? I earn $142k now with annual bonus and the job is chill as gently caress on the client side as a senior manager - am I being greedy by saying I'd only put up with agency bullshit for $200k?
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May 13, 2021 19:28
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I think you should have said exactly what you were thinking and then walked away--unless they are in fact correct that you aren't nearly qualified for the SD role at this point. But even then, I really detest bait-and-switch tactics and would sour immediately on wanting to work there. I would definitely advise naming a sky high number and walking away if they don't get very close to it. "We have fundamental differences as to what I am worth. Good day."
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May 13, 2021 19:57
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Do you want the job anyway? That’s what would determine how hard I push it I were in your shoes. There’s a spectrum of responses here, everything from “thank you for your interest, but I’m not interested in pursuing that role at this time”, to “still interested, but would need x to make it happen”.... where x is in line with what you’d expect from a director position, which sounds like it’s less than 200. Ultimately if the new job they’re pitching isn’t worth it to you, just say that, you have a job already, you don’t need them.
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May 13, 2021 19:58
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stellers bae posted:I'm at the near-final interview stage for a senior director role at another digital agency. Their talent person, who just stepped in to the process, called me to tell me that they had received very positive feedback thus far, and wanted to schedule me for an interview with their president, but that based on my lack of experience with their particular vertical focus that they were looking as hiring me as director instead. The lower title doesn't matter, but this "their prospective pay towards the absolute bottom of what a director would earn" is bullshit. Like you said, the interviewed you for a senior director role, they liked you, and want to hire you. At the very least the pay should be at the higher end of what a director could make. I don't think you sound greedy. It sounds like they are loving around. Agencies do indeed have a lot of bullshit. If your current position is solid, then that should be baked into pay increase expectations and +15.0% doesn't sound worth it IMO.
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May 13, 2021 20:00
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"We really like you as a candidate but we only want to offer you a lower role than you interviewed for at far lower salary" just reeks of bullshit to me and makes me suspicious it was a planned bait-and-switch all along.
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May 13, 2021 20:02
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stellers bae posted:I'm at the near-final interview stage for a senior director role at another digital agency. Their talent person, who just stepped in to the process, called me to tell me that they had received very positive feedback thus far, and wanted to schedule me for an interview with their president, but that based on my lack of experience with their particular vertical focus that they were looking as hiring me as director instead. They knew at the beginning that you didn't have any experience with the vertical but interviewed you for that position anyways. This is a bait and switch. I had a shop pull something similar to this on me about a year ago and spoiler alert: they're just trying to see how far they can push you. I went with their first 'demotion' and after another two rounds of interviews they tried to demote me again
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May 13, 2021 20:10
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also it's pro services, at that level provided you can produce there's probably room for you at the SD level so they're just being idiots
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May 13, 2021 20:17
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:also it's pro services, at that level provided you can produce there's probably room for you at the SD level so they're just being idiots +1 but slight twist. They might have looked at their biz metrics and gotten nervous. Hence the sudden shift. If that was the case a great firm would just be straight up but it's also common for even people internally being fed a story because senior mgmt doesn't want to spook anyone.
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May 13, 2021 20:22
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Thanks folks. Guess I'll continue along but just give them a 'I need to be at $200, and if we can't do that, good day'. I'm never gonna be a senior leader 
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May 13, 2021 20:43
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stellers bae posted:Thanks folks. Guess I'll continue along but just give them a 'I need to be at $200, and if we can't do that, good day'. Doing this is practicing senior leadership skills of not caving under pressure
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May 13, 2021 20:45
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stellers bae posted:Thanks folks. Guess I'll continue along but just give them a 'I need to be at $200, and if we can't do that, good day'. If you are good with the pay at senior manager I think it is a much better place to be unless you realllllly want to move way up. Senior Manager is kind of the sweet spot of making bank, having some authority and ability to drive the direction of the company, and not being called after 5 pm. My directors are always plugged in... doesn't seem worth the money to me unless you are on track for SVP/C level. Good plan on the approach though and good luck.
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May 14, 2021 00:36
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They were aware of your experience before they interviewed you for the role they said you now don't have the experience for. If for some reason you still trust these people to pay your rent and bills, don't budge a cent on the salary you expected at the higher level and tell them to gently caress off for wasting your time if not (you said you can manage at your current employer for a bit longer right? If not, that changes things).
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May 14, 2021 02:46
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From Ask a Manager today.Alison Greene posted:Can I ask for a higher salary my second week on the job? So, here's a horror story about why you should always negotiate. OP got a $5k bonus and then realized they're going to be making $10k less per year they work at that company. Their options pretty much boil down to 1) suck it up or 2) burn the bridge.
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May 14, 2021 15:00
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If he's still young (which I assume he is) that one single little timidity-driven mistake is going to cost him a million dollars over the course of his life, or drat near. Also relevant because he is exactly the kind of sucker the kind of companies we were just talking about upthread are trawling the waters for. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 15:10 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 15:08
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If they're that green, they might also not be estimating their potential pay well either. Maybe they live in Nowhere, SD and saw what their pay should be for the Bay Area, and it turns out their actually above market. I've got an interview today through networking with a friend, and he asked me yesterday if I was ready for a bidding war for me (cause he knew I was applying around). That is a nice thing to hear.
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May 14, 2021 15:35
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Dik Hz posted:From Ask a Manager today. I am not sure what the issue is besides he didn't negotiate. He says he is at the low end of the pay range and he is on the low end of the qualifications. He could have got more by negotiating most likely but his only recourse now is to suck it up until he finds a new job.
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May 14, 2021 17:42
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LOL, so re: that senior director role... They came back to me yesterday and said they had 'realigned' towards offering me the senior director role after all (not the director role they were kinda bait and switching me into), and set up a final interview with the president. Apparently they've been interviewing for months and didn't want to lose me over such a small disagreement. We'll see what happens but gently caress, this thread is so right about sticking to your guns and not caving. spwrozek posted:If you are good with the pay at senior manager I think it is a much better place to be unless you realllllly want to move way up. Senior Manager is kind of the sweet spot of making bank, having some authority and ability to drive the direction of the company, and not being called after 5 pm. My directors are always plugged in... doesn't seem worth the money to me unless you are on track for SVP/C level. drat, this is kinda true. I enjoy my posting time at work and having to be that plugged in doesn't sound great. But maybe earning that much more + having that title would set me up for a dream cushy job down the road...
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May 14, 2021 17:48
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spwrozek posted:I am not sure what the issue is besides he didn't negotiate.
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May 14, 2021 17:58
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stellers bae posted:drat, this is kinda true. I enjoy my posting time at work and having to be that plugged in doesn't sound great. But maybe earning that much more + having that title would set me up for a dream cushy job down the road... It's all a matter of how much you're willing to sacrifice current health/happiness for future happiness. It's fine to say "I'm going to do this job for two years and then switch to something lower-stress", so long as a) you actually follow through, and b) the value you get from the job is worth the toll it takes on you. If you burn out and are never able to work again? Prrrobably not worth it.
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May 14, 2021 18:04
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stellers bae posted:LOL, so re: that senior director role... Was this after you responded holding firm at 200K or did they come back to you on their own?
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May 14, 2021 18:08
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stellers bae posted:LOL, so re: that senior director role...  About that... Guinness posted:Doing this is practicing senior leadership skills of not caving under pressure This guy is not wrong.
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May 14, 2021 18:12
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Dik Hz posted:From Ask a Manager today. I started a new job in March and I still sometimes have a quick moment of panic where I wonder if, somehow, I made a mistake on the math and took a pay cut. There's no way I did, even considering the move to a HCOL area . . . I don't think. I guess how much I have "left over" at the end of the month really depends on how much I end up paying per month for shelter. Goddamn I cannot wait to be out of this temporary living space.
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May 14, 2021 18:19
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Fwiw I entered a senior manager job with all those nice things you're describing. High pay, good hours, growing business. shortly after we had a PE buyout, founder quit, merger that was basically takeover and COVID. So now everything is on fire, leadership is toxic and maybe we get layed off. It's generally very unpleasant. Fortunately I work in tech where's there's demand and I've stayed somewhat on my toes. So I think I make it ok. My point is: I wouldn't chase that comfortable middle manager position or get too institutionalized if you've got it. Too much in the hands of people and forces that dgaf about you.
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May 14, 2021 18:58
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Eric the Mauve posted:If he's still young (which I assume he is) that one single little timidity-driven mistake is going to cost him a million dollars over the course of his life, or drat near. It shouldn't really affect his next salary though, right? Except in his mind where he'd be happy with a 10% increase instead of the 20% that would put him back to average. I got two new jobs during the pandemic. First one I was an idiot about and accepted their first offer. Second one I found this thread and I feel like I did pretty well. But I never felt like the first affected the second in any real way.
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May 14, 2021 20:16
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BonHair posted:It shouldn't really affect his next salary though, right? Except in his mind where he'd be happy with a 10% increase instead of the 20% that would put him back to average.
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May 14, 2021 20:24
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Despite all odds I’ve made it to the third and final round of the interview. I don’t think I can kick the salary can down the road any longer. The floor is 55k, the goal is 60k, the ceiling is 62k. If I stick to my guns with 60k, will they say “ok we’ll consider it” and then choose the guy who accepted 55k instead? I guess that’s a funny way to put it, but I’m quite worried that somehow I lose the job so someone who offers to do it cheaper. Or does that come after I’m selected (god willing)? Sorry these are really dumb questions but this is the first time I’m able to negotiate anything instead of flat out accepting minimum wage because I have no other choice.
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May 14, 2021 20:30
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If they don't want to give you 60, most likely they'll counter to see if you want to go with 55 before offering it to the next guy (if you decline). But there is a small ish chance they could do as you described. It would probably depend on how much better you are than the next candidate. Keep in mind they'll have to do this same dance with the next candidate unless they've already stated they will do 55. In which case, they are going with you first because they like you more. In any case, the odds are in your favor that it can't hurt and at worst they come back with an offer of 55. bamhand fucked around with this message at 20:36 on May 14, 2021 |
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May 14, 2021 20:33
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