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Guavanaut posted:Britcops and Gardai both knew where the real bomb in that case was and both avoided mentioning it to Ulster, so there's blood on those hands too. My understanding of the Omagh bombing (as summed up by the Judge in a court case) was essentially that the plan was for a Car Bomb to be driven and parked outside the court house in Omagh for Saturday afternoon. The problem was when the guy tried to do this, somebody had already parked their car there and the car bomb got parked down the street and not at the designated spot. Then the command section calls in the warning with the registered code word, but its based on the car being in court house not the second place in down town Omagh. As soon as the authorities get the warning, they start moving people away from the courthousr, unaware that they are funneling people towards where the actual car bomb is in downtown. A horrible situation and I'm not justifying what happened, but I think it's an example that sometimes tiny real world things (like not being able to get a parking space) can have huge unintended consequences. Also I find it funny how the BBC are reporting it as "the Queen says no prosecutions of are brave bois." While Irish media are saying the opposite. Queen's Speech has no mention of Troubles amnesty but Boris Johnson says plans coming 'in due course' https://jrnl.ie/5434082 The Question IRL fucked around with this message at 17:45 on May 11, 2021 |
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May 11, 2021 17:40
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Get them to read Pratchett. Narrative is just a fancy Caecilius word for story, and his entire thing was about the power of stories. Corbyn's leadership itself is a story (or more precisely, the millions of factual things that happened in that time can be made into many stories, e.g. The Candidate). But yes, the failure to turn the actual leftist project into a story machine is the major problem. I feel like the NHS is kind of a story running on fumes - free healthcare for all, as imagined after the war that we all definitely fought in, and the story continues ever since. A thing to be proud of. But we need some monks to feed it more narrative to keep it spinning, or it will stop.
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May 11, 2021 17:49
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I never said anyone had to come save us - we need to do these things ourselves. It totally depends on what you’re doing in terms of advice I’d give. In general and in terms of the Labour Party I’d start by, despite being an anarchist and balking as I say this, recasting the idea of a strong country as one that looks after everyone and no one goes without, rather than one that has nukes and flies a flag ‘proudly’. I think the extra-parliamentary left is crucial here - you can’t just make it about voting, you have to go beyond that and do things in people’s communities that matter to them. We have to, not as a party or a group, but as a movement be building these narratives in every interaction we have.
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May 11, 2021 17:52
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Josef bugman posted:Then what is your advice? What method is there for talking to people? Because this might be stuff we can agree on, but acknowledging that "I alone cannot do this and I don't think there is anyone coming to save us" isn't defeatist if it's an accurate read of a situation. I think implicit is the idea we need to win back control of the Labour party before we go around creating narratives for a Labour government. Starmer of course won the leadership entirely on a narrative of uniting the party and forensic competency - in spite of more factual evidence that Starmer is inexperienced, backed the disastrous 2nd referendum stance and that the Labour right pathologically cannot work with the rest of the party. in turn the Labour left need to present a better story than Starmer's, rather than assuming the membership will automatically vote for their Corbyn-continuity/Momentum-backed/whatever candidate (as per the previous leadership election)
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May 11, 2021 18:07
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Jakabite posted:I don’t know but this sounds like defeatist bollocks to me. If you can’t change the narrative or build your own you will not win. Period. Waaaa it’s too hard and it’s all in the hands of the media is an excuse because the left can’t be arsed to have some original ideas or try anything new. Who cares if the ideas poll well? They still lost. Ideas don’t exist in a vacuum and ignoring that fact because it’s hard to deal with or would force a radical change of tack is why we live in an ever worsening neoliberal hellscape. If you can’t even change minds with policies that people like then you have to pull your loving finger out and work out why that is - the right manage to sell harmful dog poo poo, so we need to work out how to sell good stuff. ‘The right controls the main organs of media’ might be true but it just sounds like feeble whining. Find another way. Do real stuff. Stop focusing on the parliamentary game. Find a way to build a narrative or lose, it’s as simple as that. I'm not disagreeing with you or being defeatist, I'm just frustrated. I'm not interested in the labour party as a vehicle for careerists, but if they end up with another leftist in charge I will gleefully do what I can to push that boulder back up the hill. My hope and expectation of the parliamentary left is that we have to keep loving trying, when what we saw in about 2018 was that people began disagreeing with newspapers and the BBC because they weren't willing to just accept that good things are, in fact, bad. I think around 2017-2018, we saw a genuine interruption in the standard narratives of government, and the long-term consequence of that may turn out to be that we finished off austerity as a viable political idea. At the same time, it's frustrating to see the media luck out on one of a million accusations and completely destroy the Labour party in response, so I'm entirely sincere when I ask "well, what do we do?". I'm game for doing this poo poo until the idea that good things are good is normalised enough that the media detonate their own credibility instead of ours which, again, we got close to - and that was the first dissenting voice in parliamentary politics in decades. This is doable, but loving hell the big, catastrophic losses to a cackling cabal of loving lunatics is exhausting. And after that, I feel it's a bit unfair to vent those frustrations by telling people they just didn't do unspecified narrative change tactic hard enough. 2019 is far enough behind us that my lasting impression of the corbyn era is "well, at least now I know those bastards bleed like the rest of us", but I still think there's no set of actions anyone could've taken that ended up with us winning that election. Jakabite posted:I think the extra-parliamentary left is crucial here - you can’t just make it about voting, you have to go beyond that and do things in people’s communities that matter to them. We have to, not as a party or a group, but as a movement be building these narratives in every interaction we have. This is solid advice, it's just a shame the extra-parliamentary left no longer routinely threaten to burn down press offices like they did in the 1920s. It would go a very long way to achieving susbtantial political change if wealthy westminster bubble sorts actually expected to face the consequences of their actions, in any form at all.
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May 11, 2021 18:08
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Part of the problem is that any institution sufficiently large enough to take on the machinery of power is, by it's very nature, going to be vulnerable to corruption, entryism and eventual indolence as the trappings and routines of power become more important to them day-to-day than the causes it was set up to champion. Momentum currently seem pretty good but I've heard people talk about problems with their regional offices. A large number of unions also seem to have issues with the people at the top being more bothered with trying to salvage their relationship with Labour than dealing with worker issues. My wife is having a hell of a time trying to get a response from unison about a new computer system at her work which is giving her and a bunch of other staff headaches and eye strain because of how small the print is. Meanwhile the leftlets they send us in the post are all pictures of senior members giving out awards and pictured meeting the lord mayor and so on like it's the loving rotary society and not the last line of defence against the barbarism of unleashed capital. UNITE seem good, and I would be tempted to say that if they and Momentum left Labour to form their own party, with the changes to their NEC that Corbyn tried to institute in Labour, it might take a long time* but it'd be interesting to see how that might pan out. * That obviously, the planet does not have.
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May 11, 2021 18:14
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Comrade Fakename posted:Sounds like your mate has the secret inside knowledge of looking at the news because scrapping the FTPA was in the Queen's Speech. I want to say it was in the Tory manifesto. Its certainly not new. Tbh I was surprised it didn't have a sunset clause when the Coalition introduced it for their very specific political needs.
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May 11, 2021 18:22
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If that army in British homes and British workplaces, who believe in a better world, base their activism on whether polls come through one some specific Thursday night, or whether the people around them participate in the same politics, they put the endurance of their actions in the hands of the polls and their neighbors. This concedes control. On the moment the world shows a failure, their endurance runs dry: 2019. If the left wants to fight this, it not only has to look outward at opportunities to claim some victory, but inward at its own psychology. It has to fight it because it wants to, because it will be happier fighting. The left needs to prove it has control of its own mind; not the polls, not the electorate, not the next disaster to strike its collective heart, but itself. That doesn't guarantee success. On Earth, no successes are guaranteed. Few are even reliable. If you can't stand failing, or being mocked, or standing witness to unrelenting horror after horror; it's okay. There's no compulsion to fight. No one's conscripting into the left. It's entirely a choice. But you can. Why not fail on purpose, and realise that the world didn't end? Why not do the most mockable things, and laugh too? Why not stare right at the horror of this planet, stand in it, and hold it. Don't tell the snarklords on the internet this, but the smartest thing a human can do is choose to be as happy as they can be. If you simply find joy in chiseling away at the political world, two things are likely to be true: you'll probably keep doing it regardless of whether it worked, and in a way you'll have been wiser in politics than any spending hours on empty arguments. That's not to say we don't do strategy or bring an actual fight, but your best strategists and fighters are going to be people who love it and who'll keep doing it, no matter what.
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May 11, 2021 18:27
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Lt. Danger posted:I think implicit is the idea we need to win back control of the Labour party before we go around creating narratives for a Labour government. Starmer of course won the leadership entirely on a narrative of uniting the party and forensic competency - in spite of more factual evidence that Starmer is inexperienced, backed the disastrous 2nd referendum stance and that the Labour right pathologically cannot work with the rest of the party. in turn the Labour left need to present a better story than Starmer's, rather than assuming the membership will automatically vote for their Corbyn-continuity/Momentum-backed/whatever candidate (as per the previous leadership election) If we ever get a left labour leader again, their first priority MUST be going to a war of annihilation with the labour right. There must be a reckoning for this, and they must be expunged from the party, once and for all.
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May 11, 2021 18:31
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Jippa posted:My only advice for people getting jabs is the "appointments" aren't really that. You just roll into a room and they jab you, give you a bit of paper then send you off. I barely had enough time to take my shirt off. It took about 60-90 secs and I didn't even sit down. Huh, both mine they made everyone sit in a waiting room for 15 mins afterwards, presumably to check we didn't faint or anaphylax or explode into a cloud of vaccine microparticles. But that was the local health centre so maybe they had more room.
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May 11, 2021 18:41
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Gats Akimbo posted:Huh, both mine they made everyone sit in a waiting room for 15 mins afterwards, presumably to check we didn't faint or anaphylax or explode into a cloud of vaccine microparticles. But that was the local health centre so maybe they had more room. Mine had a separate room for people to sit in if they were driving, otherwise they were told to get the gently caress out.
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May 11, 2021 18:42
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Gats Akimbo posted:Huh, both mine they made everyone sit in a waiting room for 15 mins afterwards, presumably to check we didn't faint or anaphylax or explode into a cloud of vaccine microparticles. But that was the local health centre so maybe they had more room. They told me to wait for 15 mins in my car before driving home if I was driving.
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May 11, 2021 18:43
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The 7-day positive test count is up 12% on the previous period. Vaccine honeymoon already over...?
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May 11, 2021 18:45
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Spangly A posted:I'm not disagreeing with you or being defeatist, I'm just frustrated. I'm not interested in the labour party as a vehicle for careerists, but if they end up with another leftist in charge I will gleefully do what I can to push that boulder back up the hill. My hope and expectation of the parliamentary left is that we have to keep loving trying, when what we saw in about 2018 was that people began disagreeing with newspapers and the BBC because they weren't willing to just accept that good things are, in fact, bad. I think around 2017-2018, we saw a genuine interruption in the standard narratives of government, and the long-term consequence of that may turn out to be that we finished off austerity as a viable political idea. At the same time, it's frustrating to see the media luck out on one of a million accusations and completely destroy the Labour party in response, so I'm entirely sincere when I ask "well, what do we do?". I'm game for doing this poo poo until the idea that good things are good is normalised enough that the media detonate their own credibility instead of ours which, again, we got close to - and that was the first dissenting voice in parliamentary politics in decades. This is doable, but loving hell the big, catastrophic losses to a cackling cabal of loving lunatics is exhausting. And after that, I feel it's a bit unfair to vent those frustrations by telling people they just didn't do unspecified narrative change tactic hard enough. 2019 is far enough behind us that my lasting impression of the corbyn era is "well, at least now I know those bastards bleed like the rest of us", but I still think there's no set of actions anyone could've taken that ended up with us winning that election. Yeah sorry I don’t mean to be snippy even if I am - it’s a frustration I’ve had for a long time with the left and not necessarily anyone here, sorry if anyone felt like i was taking that out on the fine denizens of this thread.
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May 11, 2021 18:49
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it's still going up 
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May 11, 2021 19:23
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:it's still going up Darth Walrus posted:https://twitter.com/ashishkjha/status/1391238136219512833?s=21
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May 11, 2021 19:25
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https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1392176977222807560 HAHAHAHAHA you loving idiot Keith
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May 11, 2021 19:31
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My partner and I (both ~35 and in north London, no extenuating circumstances) had our first shots this week. Both AZ so I wonder if they are trying to use it up on 30s-40s as they don't want to use it on the under 30s?
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May 11, 2021 19:33
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:it's still going up
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May 11, 2021 19:33
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https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1392186048587964417 Owen sure isn't holding back
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May 11, 2021 19:36
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My wife got the text to book her first jab, spent the afternoon trying to arrange cover for work tomorrow morning do she could get it... then went back online to book the appointment only to find it was long gone. Try not to make her mistake (marrying me, for a start har-de-har).
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May 11, 2021 19:37
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jabby posted:https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1392176977222807560
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May 11, 2021 19:55
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Pablo Bluth posted:The 7-day positive test count is up 12% on the previous period. Vaccine honeymoon already over...? I wouldn't panic, we're not India yet:  The main thing is that serious cases are minimised and hospitalisations and deaths become rare exceptions.
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May 11, 2021 19:57
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Bobstar posted:Get them to read Pratchett. Narrative is just a fancy Caecilius word for story, and his entire thing was about the power of stories. The thing about stories is that people tend to like ones in which they are the hero, and hate ones where they are the villain. The thing the post-Thatcher left has tended to lack is a story where there is an electoral plurality of potential heroes. It’s all very well being a small band of resistance fighters on the run from the evil media empire. That’s a really strong story, from which lots of money can be made.. But it doesn’t actually get you anywhere; it’s a story of survival despite weakness, not victory.
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May 11, 2021 20:02
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How did Mandelson slime his way back into the centre of things, anyway? I thought he was a marginal figure who'd largely given up on directly involving himself in politics years ago. Or... is that just what he wanted us to think?!
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May 11, 2021 20:11
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The Question IRL posted:My understanding of the Omagh bombing (as summed up by the Judge in a court case) was essentially that the plan was for a Car Bomb to be driven and parked outside the court house in Omagh for Saturday afternoon. Not full story. I am from just outside Omagh, if it was 20 minutes later I would have been there, if it was 20 minutes earlier my brother would have been in the area. First a geography lesson about Omagh. The court is at the top of High Street. This continues down a hill, up a hill, to traffic lights. This then still continues but is now Market Street. Market street goes down the hill, to another set of traffic lights.  The big grey building at the back is the Court House. The set of traffic lights up the hill is where High Street ends and Market Street begins. Where the cops are standing in the pic are the second set of traffic lights. So the IRA fuckwits park the car at the end of Market Street, and phone it in saying its on High Street. Parked it at the wrong set of traffic lights basically. The side ways away from the streets is not great to evacuate people, so they tell everyone to go down the Market Street, where they had cordoned it off. The hill between them and where they thought the car bomb was would protect them. They thought it was parked around where the pointy roof place is in middle of the pic. But they didn't know it was parked 10m beside them. Not the police's fault, just the dumb chuckie farmer bastards that didn't know the area.
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May 11, 2021 20:12
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Pistol_Pete posted:How did Mandelson slime his way back into the centre of things, anyway? I thought he was a marginal figure who'd largely given up on directly involving himself in politics years ago. Keith and Mandelson (and Epstein) are all members of the Trilateral Commission.
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May 11, 2021 20:13
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Gats Akimbo posted:Huh, both mine they made everyone sit in a waiting room for 15 mins afterwards, presumably to check we didn't faint or anaphylax or explode into a cloud of vaccine microparticles. But that was the local health centre so maybe they had more room. They only enforce that for the mRNA vaccines - AZ recipients just get bundled off with advice not to drive for 15 minutes just in case. AIUI there's a peculiarity with both of them where they can have delayed reactions (the AZ one, like most vaccines, gives an almost-instant allergic reaction in people that are allergic to it) so they have nurses/St. John's lurking with epipens just in case. It's another of those "more likely to get run over when you walk out the door" things but obviously they'd *prefer* people not drop dead. (Speaking of - someone mentioned a while back about not tensing up when you're being injected. One time at one of the big centres, where I was volunteering, they had a severely needle-phobic person go in who proceeded to scream at the top of her lungs throughout the entire process and come out cradling her shoulder and sobbing - I mean fair play to her because she still went through with it, but a) I can't imagine her muscle was particularly relaxed when she got jabbed and b) I'm then trying to corral 15 people who've just seen and heard that into going in for their jabs)
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May 11, 2021 20:15
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Imagine getting ditched by Peter Mandelson. The oval office didn't even ditch Jeffrey Epstein after it came out he was loving kids.
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May 11, 2021 20:24
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Gonzo McFee posted:Imagine getting ditched by Peter Mandelson. Maybe the problem is Keef's tastes like in the over-60 age group rather than the under-17s like the rest of his buddies.
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May 11, 2021 20:37
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Conspiracy theory: briefing 2 separate Labour-aligned papers 2 separate things in the same day is Mandelson's way of trying to make it look like he's up to some clever ploy rather than just being a catastrophic failure Also kinda conspiratorial I guess: Guido's reporting that the salacious rumour about Rayner is that she's allegedly having an affair with Sam Tarry (e: alleged in that Guido is alleging it)
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May 11, 2021 20:40
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I had to sit in a huge hall filled with lines of chairs that had about 12 little tented stabbing rooms you got called up to. Reminded me horribly of exams (not the stabbing tents) And then had to wait in another bit for 15 mins. Left after 10mins tho cos I'm a badman 
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May 11, 2021 20:42
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goddamnedtwisto posted:They only enforce that for the mRNA vaccines - AZ recipients just get bundled off with advice not to drive for 15 minutes just in case. AIUI there's a peculiarity with both of them where they can have delayed reactions (the AZ one, like most vaccines, gives an almost-instant allergic reaction in people that are allergic to it) so they have nurses/St. John's lurking with epipens just in case. Makes sense for the mRNA vaccines, it's gonna take a few minutes for the payload to actually get into muscle cells, then get turned into spike protein that gets shuttled to the cell surface so that the immune system actually has something worth reacting to
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May 11, 2021 20:58
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happyhippy posted:Not full story. I am from just outside Omagh, if it was 20 minutes later I would have been there, if it was 20 minutes earlier my brother would have been in the area. I didn't mean to imply in anyway that it wasn't a terrible, senseless act of violence. It absolutely was. All the people injured or killed by it were victims who very much did not deserve what had happened to them. Seeing the pictures do help to better understand the geography of what had happened. In re-reading the reports, if these guys had mobile phone (and I think it was proven that they did and there was proof that there had been mobile phone traffic at the time.) it was well within their power to communicate that they hadn't parked in the right spot or to modify the warning to be given. And it wasn't done. On a side note, even though I'm not from the North, my family and I were in the North on the 15th of August 1998 and were initially planning on going to Omagh for lunch that day. Suffice to say, when we were getting close we were stopped by the police and advised to go to another town.
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May 11, 2021 21:12
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-polls-corbyn-labour-b1845588.html Keir’s ratings in this poll are worse than Corbyn’s at this point in his tenure. 13 months after Corbyn became leader - Corbyn at -31%, Keir at -48%. This was immediately after that leadership challenge, where the PLP rebelled after Labour lost a staggering 12 seats in the local elections
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May 11, 2021 21:20
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Good speech by thread favourite Zarah Sultana in the Queen's Speech debate tonight. Skip back to about 20:40 on BBC Parliament if you want to see the future leader in action.
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May 11, 2021 21:28
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The Question IRL posted:In re-reading the reports, if these guys had mobile phone (and I think it was proven that they did and there was proof that there had been mobile phone traffic at the time.) it was well within their power to communicate that they hadn't parked in the right spot or to modify the warning to be given. And it wasn't done. I'm not taking the conspiratorial line that they sat back twirling their mustaches and letting it happen as it did because "ha ha this'll make the dissidents look terrible", even though it did in fact make the dissidents look terrible, and MI5/FBI/GCHQ/etc have their fair share of mustache-twirling evil 'for the greater good' moments, I'm taking the far more prosaic line that the oldest security service bollocks in the book "we can't tell them everything we know otherwise they'll know we know they know..." got in the way and they lost the chance to do anything in time. *Dissident groups in the late 90s really do seem at times like that old joke about anarchist plotters/communist cells/Combat 18, where there's half a dozen members and 6 of them are cops.
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May 11, 2021 21:52
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spiderbot posted:My partner and I (both ~35 and in north London, no extenuating circumstances) had our first shots this week. Both AZ so I wonder if they are trying to use it up on 30s-40s as they don't want to use it on the under 30s? I thought everyone under 40 was supposed to be be offered alternatives to AZ now.
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May 11, 2021 21:57
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https://twitter.com/marcusbarnett_/status/1392224394949414912 Watching Labour eat itself is surprisingly fun this time around.
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May 11, 2021 22:09
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Szmitten posted:I thought everyone under 40 was supposed to be be offered alternatives to AZ now. what alternatives?
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May 11, 2021 22:10
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