[UK] Knee Deep In The Inbred

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [UK] Knee Deep In The Inbred

MikeCrotch: Nov 5, 2011; I AM UNJUSTIFIABLY PROUD OF MY SPAGHETTI BOLOGNESE RECIPE

YES, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY SIMPLE DISH

NO, IT IS NOT NORMAL TO USE A PEPPERAMI INSTEAD OF MINCED MEAT

YES, THERE IS TOO MUCH SALT IN MY RECIPE

NO, I WON'T STOP SHARING IT

more like BOLLOCKnese

Jose posted:

don't forget that osborne specifically targeted the worst austerity at labour councils for this exact reason, to get people to blame labour for their area going to total poo poo. Most labour councils are poo poo and just accepted it but those that refused to give in have worked great for labour

The worst Labour councils are the ones where land prices are going up loads so the councils have either got in with developers or got their fingers burned speculating on land

One of the the reasons the left got a chance to do stuff in Preston is because the economy was a shambles and the Blairites wanted nothing to do with it

# ? May 11, 2021 15:07

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# ? May 24, 2024 02:37

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

yeah its really funny how starmer is trying to use tory corruption as his attack line when his pick for general secretary is involved in a �200m labour council scandal

# ? May 11, 2021 15:09

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

forensic

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1392120918781083650?s=20

# ? May 11, 2021 15:23

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

I will never watch PMQs but I like to imagine its gonna be brutal for kier

That's just what the dirty little shamepig wants though

# ? May 11, 2021 15:29

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

he;s responding to the queens speech so its even worse than PMQs lol

# ? May 11, 2021 15:31

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

What�s this I hear about another by election? Lol.

# ? May 11, 2021 17:08

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

Crowsbeak posted:

What�s this I hear about another by election? Lol.

a labour MP won her mayoral election meaning she had to step down. very different seat to hartlepool too

lmao

https://twitter.com/isaac_kh/status/1392070737293361155?s=20

# ? May 11, 2021 17:11

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

CoolCab posted:

sorry, papers, still.

see, this is where people get it twisted. of course there is no moral reason in a purely abstract sense, democracy has no inherent moral reasoning it's just a system of power. you examine the moral question and of course you're going to convince yourself of something nonsensical, morality is inherently extremely subjective. you're not making an argument about democracy and instead you're skipping some steps in "if i were a benevolent philosopher king and i were the absolute ruler of the world i would make x choice" and maybe trying to shore up the superstructure of that with "and this is why x choice is moral/correct".

now, i'm going to critique this on two levels here. first, i do not find the construct of there being some top down singular decision maker who makes the right or wrong choice as an inherently moral idea, the underlying implied outcome of "there is no reason to accept the outcome of a dumb questionarre" - you are implicitly calling on people who have the power to do that and in doing so legitimizing it as a construct. i and in fact a huge number of people hold some ideals about democracy that are founded and extremely deep set that could probably accurately be summarized that assuring human agency is much much more important than assuring humans make the best choice every time. there are any number of justifications i can throw out here personally - the right to self determination is utterly sacrosanct and democracy is the best compromise readily available for that at scale, if anything we have much too little democracy in our lives and in particular our work lives, people who say "everyone but me is an idiot" are in my experience literally universally dumber than the average person and virtually certainly less interesting than those who self identify as idiots and extrapolating that over the population etc.

these are not absolutes - no implementation of democracy is perfect, many are designed to be less perfect, i'm sidesteping more thorny issues like how there can by tyrannies by the majority, there are problems that it is impractical to reasonably poll the population about and there are some we absolutely should, in my opinion, avoid. but i'm giving a theoretical framework that i share and a huge proportion of the population shares - that democracy, particularly our representative democracy, while flawed, is the system with which we have agreed to distribute political power and allows me to exert some tiny quantum of agency over my political reality. you might say, even from observation, many people do not have this level of sophistication in these ideals or at least articulate them in inelegant, hypocritical or at times flawed ways. of course they do, they're human, it doesn't mean they feel them any less genuinely than i or even someone good at building good speaky speaking word words can put it. and i remind you the overwhelming majority of these people only get engage with democracy at all what, yearly at absolute best for a few minutes a go? and that's for like fuckin dogcatchers and poo poo for actual powerful people we might get to play one year in four. if you wonder why people feel strongly about this go ask emily davison, although who knows perhaps she was just horsing around.

so having outlining the ideological reason that people found it repugnant lets plug that into the practical: adopting a political position in a democracy of "lets undo a previous vote" has some structural issues. anyone who voted for that previous vote will, for many reasons but with more than ample spite to carry it alone, never again trust you. they would be absolutely loving stupid to do so - genuinely stupid, much moreso than, say, voting against the interest of the capital class out of spite even when it harms their own self interest. you are advocating people vote away that tiny sliver of agency they are begrudgingly offered. of course they hate you for this. i hate you for this, at least in that i could forsee the outcome of this wildly foolish course of action and i fuckin voted remain.

also, to counter your specific example, remain is absolutely nothing like a referendum failing and then the participants continuing to agitate - we don't see the scottish nationalists agitating within that lens because of course we don't, a vote was held to stay or leave, stay won and they stayed. the democratic outcome aligned with the practical one as it more or less always will. there is a colossal difference between that and the SNP declaring in 2015 that they intend to unilaterally leave anyway - that would, of course, have been totally suicidal. if 2016 went the other way garage would have been absolutely justified in continuing to agitate and the inverse, there is nothing stopping people for agitating to rejoin the EU, except that remain refused to compromise with reality and instead went chasing white rabbits.

I'm not advocating anything now. And when I was advocating for anything it was basically the old Labour plan of trying to do some harm reduction on Brexit, because there really was no realistic way of getting out of it. However, my point here is that Democracy is more a question of having an argument and less about counting votes. Once stuff becomes legally binding it's about power, of course, but otherwise it is part of building an argument with referenda, marches and whatever. And it's not like there was a ready made document to sign. So while going for a do-over in that context is slightly scummy it's hardly the worst sin against democracy. Political suicide, yes, but not really morally wrong. And, yes the Remain campaign and especially People's Vote was absolutely a bad faith actor and the EU is also pretty terrible, but there really were no good options.

Also this:

Jose posted:

Any hope for a soft Brexit was murdered by Gina miller going to court and making overturning the result possible. Worth remembering she was also more worried by Corbyn than no deal Brexit

# ? May 11, 2021 17:58

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Jose posted:

a labour MP won her mayoral election meaning she had to step down. very different seat to hartlepool too

lmao

https://twitter.com/isaac_kh/status/1392070737293361155?s=20

https://twitter.com/isaac_kh/status/1392072952536047622

# ? May 11, 2021 18:15

An insane mind: Aug 11, 2018

Lol if Remain had eaked out a victory Leave would not just have gone, oh wow we lost with a percentage point alright that's just how it is then. No one was acting in any sort of good faith.

# ? May 11, 2021 18:25

The Donut: Aug 28, 2008; Zelensky's Zealots; Soiled Meat

Crowsbeak posted:

What�s this I hear about another by election? Lol.

There will also be another byelection (presumably this year? I don't know how it works) in Chesham & Amersham where the standing Conservative MP died earlier this year.

# ? May 11, 2021 18:31

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

genericnick posted:

Democracy is more a question of having an argument and less about counting votes.

lol no
love how you say that it would've been poltiical suicide to refuse the results of the referendum and still can't figure out that consequently brexit was unavoidable (after the votes were tallied) because people would get angrier and the only electable options would've been pro-brexit but even more than in 2017/2019

# ? May 11, 2021 19:00

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

it's about the argument when I lose and about counting votes when I win

# ? May 11, 2021 19:01

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Doctor Jeep posted:

lol no
love how you say that it would've been poltiical suicide to refuse the results of the referendum and still can't figure out that consequently brexit was unavoidable (after the votes were tallied) because people would get angrier and the only electable options would've been pro-brexit but even more than in 2017/2019

I literally wrote in the post you are quoting that there was no way out of this? My point was that refusing to accept the result of the referendum and demanding a second one was not a moral failure, though exceedingly impractical. And while the remain campaign leadership was complete scum I can't fault a 20 something student for failing to accept that racist pensioners managed to close off their easiest escape route if things get worse on Knife Crime Island. (Though obviously that was mostly illusionary.)

# ? May 11, 2021 19:34

Top City Homo: Oct 15, 2014; Ramrod XTreme

gaymocracy

# ? May 11, 2021 19:57

Doktor Avalanche: Dec 30, 2008

genericnick posted:

I literally wrote in the post you are quoting that there was no way out of this? My point was that refusing to accept the result of the referendum and demanding a second one was not a moral failure, though exceedingly impractical. And while the remain campaign leadership was complete scum I can't fault a 20 something student for failing to accept that racist pensioners managed to close off their easiest escape route if things get worse on Knife Crime Island. (Though obviously that was mostly illusionary.)

then refusing the result of any vote isn't a moral failure, including any election
to be fair, I agree with that, since I've gotten really skeptical about democracy and its ability to cope with anything

# ? May 11, 2021 19:59

ToxicAcne: May 25, 2014

How accurate is this analysis?

https://novaramedia.com/2021/05/10/everybody-is-doing-identity-politics-even-if-they-think-theyre-not/

# ? May 11, 2021 21:00

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-polls-corbyn-labour-b1845588.html

Keir�s ratings in this poll are worse than Corbyn�s at this point in his tenure.

13 months after Corbyn became leader - Corbyn at -31%, Keir at -48%. This was immediately after that leadership challenge, where the PLP rebelled after Labour lost 12 seats in the local elections

# ? May 11, 2021 21:15

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

lol the nonce is even abandoning him

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1392176977222807560?s=20

# ? May 11, 2021 21:52

Nieuw Amsterdam: Dec 1, 2006; Dignit�. Toujours, dignit�.

PawParole posted:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-polls-corbyn-labour-b1845588.html

Keir�s ratings in this poll are worse than Corbyn�s at this point in his tenure.

13 months after Corbyn became leader - Corbyn at -31%, Keir at -48%. This was immediately after that leadership challenge, where the PLP rebelled after Labour lost 12 seats in the local elections

Makes sense.

Corbyn doesn�t appeal to everyone, but there is a solid cohort of people who REALLY LIKE HIM as well as another solid cohort of haters. He just couldn�t persuade enough neutrals to feel the love.

Nobody has strong feelings for Keir, which is the worst place to be. The only thing people have heard about him is 1) he is a huge loser and 2) not Corbyn.

So you lose all the passionate Jezza stans, and all the neutrals don�t want a proven loser. Then you lose people who are Tory-curious and were promised cash or development.

There�s no one left. This is completely unsustainable for Labour.

# ? May 11, 2021 21:55

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

An insane mind posted:

Lol if Remain had eaked out a victory Leave would not just have gone, oh wow we lost with a percentage point alright that's just how it is then. No one was acting in any sort of good faith.

no, but then they wouldn't have had anywhere near the purchase they ended up having

# ? May 11, 2021 22:23

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

i am of the genuinely radical opinion that your average voter isn't actually an idiot and is capable of some degree of rational thought; had remain ended up with a narrow win, brexit would've still been a force in british politics, but opposing it would not have been the death pact it ended up being

# ? May 11, 2021 22:25

jaete: Jun 21, 2009; Nap Ghost

Jose posted:

a labour MP won her mayoral election meaning she had to step down. very different seat to hartlepool too

you mean it'll be won by lib dems rather than tories?

# ? May 11, 2021 22:50

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

one of the neat things about separatism votes is that if you lose, you can just vote again.

# ? May 11, 2021 23:02

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

jaete posted:

you mean it'll be won by lib dems rather than tories?

No just there was basically no Brexit party vote there

# ? May 11, 2021 23:23

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Reality Protester posted:

one of the neat things about separatism votes is that if you lose, you can just vote again.

Good thing nobody told that to the Quebecois.

# ? May 12, 2021 00:05

CoolCab: Apr 17, 2005; glem

Reality Protester posted:

one of the neat things about separatism votes is that if you lose, you can just vote again.

literally yes, and this is in part balanced with the fact the status quo has an enormous advantage in any electoral context - a separatist campaign needs to overcome the uncertainty of an unknown outcome. it takes quite a yacht battle starring Bob Geldof to piss that advantage up the wall.

# ? May 12, 2021 00:16

Southpaugh: May 26, 2007; Smokey Bacon

loving sir bob to you peasant.

# ? May 12, 2021 00:36

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

Lostconfused posted:

Good thing nobody told that to the Quebecois.

That's who I was thinking of. they held a vote, lost, then held another vote years later. Still lost, mind you, but it was incredibly close and both sides attempted to rig it.

# ? May 12, 2021 00:45

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Reality Protester posted:

but it was incredibly close and both sides attempted to rig it.

Sounds familiar

# ? May 12, 2021 00:47

RealityWarCriminal: Aug 10, 2016

yeah democracy is a mess and has been for centuries

# ? May 12, 2021 00:51

Fleetwood: Mar 26, 2010; biggest hochul head in china

gonadic io posted:

https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1391715001963065348

is he talking about Tories?

# ? May 12, 2021 01:49

gimme the GOD DAMN candy: Jul 1, 2007

he could be talking about anyone, really.

# ? May 12, 2021 02:17

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

It will inevitably result in footage of some rat faced old misery guts ranting on about dirty foreigners and lazy scroungers, while Keith squirms around next to them, looking massively uncomfortable but being too cowardly to challenge anything that they're saying.

So there's that, I guess.

# ? May 12, 2021 04:48

Jel Shaker: Apr 19, 2003

Fleetwood posted:

is he talking about Tories?

he means observer columnists

# ? May 12, 2021 07:25

Pistol_Pete: Sep 15, 2007; Oven Wrangler

Spending the summer travelling round the nation's Wetherspoons, allowing redfaced old racists to scream at him that Labour doesn't stand for people like them any more while he agrees and apologises is pure, vintage Starmer.

If he goes at it hard, I'm pretty sure he can hit -100 approval ratings by the autumn.

# ? May 12, 2021 08:04