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My mind boggles at the generational decision making process that has resulted in Israel being so aggressively antagonistic towards Palestine that is resulting in raw, irreversible and uncontrollable hatred from their populace towards Palestinians. If Israel had been a standard social democracy with fascist undertones and some racially aligned wealth disparity they would be the undisputed darlings of every government in the world. It seems to me that any country which exists perpetually in a state of eternal war is eventually going to lose one and Israel with its actions over the last few decades is signing that into their future.
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May 13, 2021 11:32
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Neurolimal posted:Is there any other historical precedent for a country facing unrest, downright race riots, and a zombie government deciding that the best course of action is a ground invasion of a nearby city? I'm not sure on that level of specificity, but I think "Wobbly government starts a war they think they can win to mobilise patriotic feeling" is fairly common. Like the timing for the Falklands War was in large part because the Argentinian junta was losing popularity and thought it would be an easy win that wouldn't lead to war but would gain them support.
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May 13, 2021 11:47
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Hey can someone post that modified dry bones comic where the guy calls for mass genocide? Because that seems likely as what is now going to happen given Israel “accidentally” radicalised their population into genuinely supporting Arab genocide.
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May 13, 2021 11:49
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It's pretty easy to see how this whole thing evolved, when the "zionist left" insists to ignore anything that happened before 1967 the kahanist perspective starts to make sense to many people, after all if the PA exists and Israel withdrew from Gaza what reasonable grievances could the Palestinians have anymore? Ergo, they must truly be culturally antisemitic and will never be happy until the Jews are driven to sea, naturally. For instance Barak proclaimed that he "unveiled the true face of the enemy, there is no Palestinian partner" when he was PM, he was certain he was being generous when he offered the PA an archipelago in the west bank. And so on. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 12:26 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 12:07
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team overhead smash posted:To be fair operation is probably correct. You can’t invade somewhere you already occupy, it’s more just an operation to conduct war crimes in the occupied territory. You might even say that this is the entire reason why Palestine is not recognized as a nation, since there are rules about invading foreign nations. But just land you occupy? It's just like they always say, "it's not a war crime if it happens against your own territory"
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May 13, 2021 12:47
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To whomever said they don't understand why the US supports Israel: In general, - Nobody likes Jews - Nobody likes Palestinians People in the US hate Palestinians more than Jews so they're gonna elect pro-Israel politicians.
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May 13, 2021 13:47
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nvrgrls posted:To whomever said they don't understand why the US supports Israel: The outcomes of US elections do not cohere to the claim that "nobody likes Jews." 1 in 20 members of Congress are Jewish, compared to about 1 in 50 Americans. Gentiles vote for us constantly. The US supports Israel because it's an outpost of our empire. As our President said, “If there were not an Israel, we would have to invent one to make sure our interests were preserved." Those interests - monetary and military - drive the ideology, not the other way around. I find it reductive to say "nobody likes Jews" as if Americans see American Jews and Israeli Jews the same way - they do not. Americans love Israel and Israeli Jews, because our politicians all love it and because we buy into the militarist/Christian Zionist vision of a Holy Land free of Muslims or weak, degenerate, diasporic Jews. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 14:08 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 13:55
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America has as many Jews as Israel and is incredibly tied up to it through Evangelical end of times support, which given the outsized influence of Mil/Ind, AIPAC and rural insanity ensures the support for Israel.Drone_Fragger posted:Hey can someone post that modified dry bones comic where the guy calls for mass genocide? Because that seems likely as what is now going to happen given Israel “accidentally” radicalised their population into genuinely supporting Arab genocide. Oh man, a blast from the past  Pretty much always timely, though. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:05 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 14:03
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Lum_ posted:There is and it will be extremely bloody for both sides. The last time this happened (Protective Edge) 67 Israelis and over 2000 Gazans died. Those numbers do not sound "extremely bloody" for both sides, only one side. The numbers differ by literally an order of magnitude.
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May 13, 2021 14:06
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DarkCrawler posted:Oh man, a blast from the past I wish they'd put the whole Israeli flag there and not just the Magen David. I think this comic encourages the terrible misconception that the Magen David is itself a symbol of Israel; I pay my $18/mo to Jewish Voice for Peace every month and I'm wearing no less than 3 Magens David right now.
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May 13, 2021 14:07
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I wish they'd put the whole Israeli flag there and not just the Magen David. I think this comic encourages the terrible misconception that the Magen David is itself a symbol of Israel; I pay my $18/mo to Jewish Voice for Peace every month and I'm wearing no less than 3 Magens David right now. Agreed, or at least include obvious references to the Israeli Far Right rather than just the Star of David.
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May 13, 2021 14:16
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OctaMurk posted:Those numbers do not sound "extremely bloody" for both sides, only one side. The numbers differ by literally an order of magnitude. That happens when you get a military armed with the latest US weapons attacking a mostly self-armed militia. The military disparity is so great that the number of IDF deaths in Protective Edge was a sign it went very badly. It's not likely to go any better if it happens again, because the conditions are the same (defenders in a mostly ruined city who have nothing left to lose, attackers with no real goal short of causing damage) Israel unleashing a ground offensive in Gaza would not only be hideously immoral, it would be profoundly stupid. However Israel's decisions this past month have not shown a great deal of forethought in general, so who knows. Lum_ fucked around with this message at 14:28 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 14:24
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I think that the popular opinion in Israel right now has swung hard to the right, Netanyahu can't accept a cease fire.
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May 13, 2021 14:28
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah. I've read that Hamas has also demonstrated that they now have accurate anti-tank missiles, which could be a problem for any ground invasion of Gaza. They've had those for years. Israeli tanks have active protection systems that can defeat them.
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May 13, 2021 14:32
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nvrgrls posted:To whomever said they don't understand why the US supports Israel: Nobody's electing pro-Israel politicians lol. Even if you wanted to, the number of national elections every cycle in which the choices on offer aren't both explicitly Zionist are in the single digits, if that. Unconditional support for Israel is one of the choices that get made for US voters, not by US voters
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May 13, 2021 14:32
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nvrgrls posted:To whomever said they don't understand why the US supports Israel: In general, - Evangelicals have a perverse self-identification as being the new covenant inheritors of Judaism/being the chosen people, so view Jews as proto-Christian allies and a Jewish Israel as an expeditionary extension of Christianity (even if condescendingly and disposably so), in contrast to the primary characterization of Jews as enemies of Christ predominant in some other branches of Christianity and by osmosis post-Christian cultures. This of course doesn't shape their interaction with individuals and has its own antisemitic quality. - Revelations zionism and bringing about the end times, of course. - Colonialism, western imperialism, and the perceived conditional whiteness and therefore enlightenment of Israel when contrasted to the Arab middle east. No one had to tell conservatives that Israel was not part of The Swamp to be drained; it's implicit and foundational to their ideology, and also to liberals'. Having grown up in conservative evangelical circles, support of Israeli oppression is a non-negotiable political issue right up there with anti-abortion. Further the perception is, in a Vietnam-War-government-vs-military-like narrative, the US is unfairly keeping Israel on a leash and if only we elected politicians who really supported them they could finally properly defend themselves and end this once and for all (in a blood bath where all the undesirable ethnicities are exterminated or subjugated). That said, as others have pointed out, voters' political agenda isn't relevant, because access to public platforms is already filtered for them.
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May 13, 2021 14:44
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I wish they'd put the whole Israeli flag there and not just the Magen David. I think this comic encourages the terrible misconception that the Magen David is itself a symbol of Israel; I pay my $18/mo to Jewish Voice for Peace every month and I'm wearing no less than 3 Magens David right now. Far right appropriating national/religious symbols is sadly part of the parcel.
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May 13, 2021 14:48
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I feel like people play up the religious angle to an absurd degree. The jesus stuff is certainly a real thing, but I imagine if there was a western democracy in the middle east that wasn't particularly religiously aligned instead the US would ally with that just as strongly. Like hong kong and china.
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May 13, 2021 14:58
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I've had literally zero interaction with evangelical Christians in my entire life AND I agree it feels overblown, and again I feel like hatred of Palestinians or general islamophobia is more of a motivator. But that's a take with no data to back it up just years of whatever whomever taught me things indoctrination. I don't buy the "support for Israel is decided for US voters" argument because I find it hard to believe that if a significant voting bloc was anti-Zionist that this wouldn't change. Right now if you support Israel you don't lose votes... right?
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May 13, 2021 15:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I feel like people play up the religious angle to an absurd degree. The jesus stuff is certainly a real thing, but I imagine if there was a western democracy in the middle east that wasn't particularly religiously aligned instead the US would ally with that just as strongly. Like hong kong and china. It's not really about religion itself but the massive influence these particular religious people have over United States. There are pro-Israeli evangelicals here too, the difference is that their voting power (and thus the attention spent on them) isn't being increased by a ludicrous system that is arguably itself pseudo-apartheid (just check the power of a white vote V.S. minorities in the U.S.) that very few other developed nations would have tolerated for as long. With one party thus being "Israel has the right to exterminate filthy Mooselms" it would probably Overton the other party into "Israel has the right to defend itself" even without most Jewish people voting for that party. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:09 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 15:06
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I feel like people play up the religious angle to an absurd degree. The jesus stuff is certainly a real thing, but I imagine if there was a western democracy in the middle east that wasn't particularly religiously aligned instead the US would ally with that just as strongly. Like hong kong and china. There was one for a minute but it's pretty obscure so not many people have heard of it It was called "Iran" nvrgrls posted:I don't buy the "support for Israel is decided for US voters" argument because I find it hard to believe that if a significant voting bloc was anti-Zionist that this wouldn't change. Right now if you support Israel you don't lose votes... right? Lose votes to who? The other Zionist in the race?
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May 13, 2021 15:06
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DarkCrawler posted:Far right appropriating national/religious symbols is sadly part of the parcel. I don't think the guy who edited that Dry Bones cartoon was far-right.
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May 13, 2021 15:09
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't think the guy who edited that Dry Bones cartoon was far-right. I'd find that hard to believe because he espouses a lot of racism and bigotry that aligns perfectly with them.
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May 13, 2021 15:17
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Cugel the Clever posted:They replaced "invasion" with "operation": Israeli death squads are being deployed.
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May 13, 2021 16:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't think the guy who edited that Dry Bones cartoon was far-right. I mean if I had to go for "a symbol of Jewish supremacy" or any supremacy for that matter it would be a religious/national symbol because that is how the far right rolls  regardless of my own personal beliefs.
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May 13, 2021 16:15
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CommieGIR posted:I'd find that hard to believe because he espouses a lot of racism and bigotry that aligns perfectly with them. Yeah, the far-right is well known for their deep sympathy for Palestinians and opposition to Israel. What are you talking about? The schmuck who writes and "draws" Dry Bones is far-right, it's very obvious that this cartoon was edited by a left-wing detractor. DarkCrawler posted:I mean if I had to go for "a symbol of Jewish supremacy" or any supremacy for that matter it would be a religious/national symbol because that is how the far right rolls You're right, we should uncritically adopt this far-right framing. The Magen David symbolizes both Jews and the State of Israel because they're the same thing, and therefore Jews bear collective responsibility for whatever the State of Israel does. If someone can't distinguish between the Magen David and the flag of Israel, I wonder how well they are able to distinguish between Jews and the State of Israel, and if they can't distinguish between those things, they are antisemitic and stupid as hell. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 16:33 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 16:30
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I feel like people play up the religious angle to an absurd degree. The jesus stuff is certainly a real thing, but I imagine if there was a western democracy in the middle east that wasn't particularly religiously aligned instead the US would ally with that just as strongly. Like hong kong and china. 30ish percent of the us is Evangelical 80 percent (the Trumpers) of which is 24%. While that doesn't sound like much you have to remember the us has a broken af senate that disproportionately gives power to rural places where these people mostly live. So the representation of these zealots who want Israel for the rapture is far far far more represented than people living in cities who skew more liberal and are pro Palestinian. jiffypop45 fucked around with this message at 16:47 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 16:43
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jiffypop45 posted:30ish percent of the us is Evangelical 80 percent (the Trumpers) of which is 24%. While that doesn't sound like much you have to remember the us has a broken af senate that disproportionately gives power to rural places where these people mostly live. So the representation of these zealots who want Israel for the rapture is far far far more represented than people living in cities who skew more liberal and are pro Palestinian. I mean, yeah, sure, there is certainly high levels of religious RHETORIC. That is for sure. strip that all away though and there is about a million examples of us having a strong western ally in politically strategic location and bending over backwards to praise and support them as the most best and important thing ever. The theological stuff is just the flavor of the sauce we are using.
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May 13, 2021 17:01
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jiffypop45 posted:30ish percent of the us is Evangelical 80 percent (the Trumpers) of which is 24%. While that doesn't sound like much you have to remember the us has a broken af senate that disproportionately gives power to rural places where these people mostly live. So the representation of these zealots who want Israel for the rapture is far far far more represented than people living in cities who skew more liberal and are pro Palestinian. System status: working as intended. 
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May 13, 2021 17:01
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jiffypop45 posted:30ish percent of the us is Evangelical 80 percent (the Trumpers) of which is 24%. While that doesn't sound like much you have to remember the us has a broken af senate that disproportionately gives power to rural places where these people mostly live. So the representation of these zealots who want Israel for the rapture is far far far more represented than people living in cities who skew more liberal and are pro Palestinian. Like this isn't factually wrong but it totally elides that the representatives of the people living in those cities are also almost exclusively ardent Zionists too Lots of people hyperfixate on the rationale of chud apocalyptists because it's so loving nuts but that doesn't explain Democrat heavyweights like Biden or Pelosi specifically and exclusively talking about this latest round of Israeli brutality in terms of nefarious Hamas rocketeers Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean, yeah, sure, there is certainly high levels of religious RHETORIC. That is for sure. strip that all away though and there is about a million examples of us having a strong western ally in politically strategic location and bending over backwards to praise and support them as the most best and important thing ever. The theological stuff is just the flavor of the sauce we are using. The democracy poo poo is just rhetoric too. That doesn't actually matter to anybody in power, as evinced by our other best bud in the region being Saudi Arabia and our worst enemy in the region having been a secular democracy that we directly overthrew within living memory TheIncredulousHulk fucked around with this message at 17:14 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 17:06
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Like this isn't factually wrong but it totally elides that the representatives of the people living in those cities are also almost exclusively ardent Zionists too I had the same thought in reaction to that post. Not only do "good liberals" mostly support Israel, don't forget that among Jewish Americans there is a big gap throughout age groups. Pew has lots of numbers from a recent study - https://www.pewforum.org/2021/05/11/jewish-americans-in-2020/
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May 13, 2021 17:22
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Yeah the US is birpartisanly lovely wrt palestinians. There are barely even undercurrents of support for palestine in the dems, outside of a handful of very outspoken junior representatives. Once you're in the senate, there's even less support for Palestinians. That even extremely tepid and frankly common sense criticism of israel gets shot down so hard makes me very cynical that this is going to change any time soon, though I sure hope I'm wrong about that.
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May 13, 2021 17:23
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Civilized Fishbot posted:
Who said anything about uncritically accepting it? A blue Magen David in particular is associated with Israel though, for obvious reasons. Doesn't mean someone thinking that thinks Jews = Israel. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:44 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 17:42
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What's Egypts whole deal with Palestinians anyway? They seem to keep their border with Gaza closed as well. What's that about?
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May 13, 2021 17:45
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punishedkissinger posted:What's Egypts whole deal with Palestinians anyway? They seem to keep their border with Gaza closed as well. What's that about? American money.
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May 13, 2021 17:53
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punishedkissinger posted:What's Egypts whole deal with Palestinians anyway? They seem to keep their border with Gaza closed as well. What's that about? https://www.amcham.org.eg/information-resources/trade-resources/egypt-us-relations/us-foreign-assistance-to-egypt
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May 13, 2021 17:56
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I loving love that the US Congress allocates them more than a billion dollars every year and only a fifth of it gets used. "Please please please buy a billion dollars of weapons from our MIC!" "Nah we're pretty much good thanks though"
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May 13, 2021 18:04
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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punishedkissinger posted:What's Egypts whole deal with Palestinians anyway? They seem to keep their border with Gaza closed as well. What's that about? Egypt is currently run by a military regime that overthrew a popularly elected Muslim Brotherhood leader, so the government there is extremely hostile to Islamist groups, especially ones with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. Meanwhile, Hamas started as an offshoot of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. Given that the Muslim Brotherhood has faced considerable oppression under Sisi's regime, it shouldn't really be surprising that the Egyptian government is taking a very unfriendly stance toward an armed Islamist group operating right next door that routinely smuggles weapons through Egyptian territory. They're regarded as a potential threat to the anti-Islamist government currently ruling Egypt.
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May 13, 2021 18:07
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punishedkissinger posted:What's Egypts whole deal with Palestinians anyway? They seem to keep their border with Gaza closed as well. What's that about? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8P80A8vy9I Zedhe Khoja fucked around with this message at 18:11 on May 13, 2021 |
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May 13, 2021 18:09
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Main Paineframe posted:Egypt is currently run by a military regime that overthrew a popularly elected Muslim Brotherhood leader, so the government there is extremely hostile to Islamist groups, especially ones with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood. "you will not be a friend or ally to the palestinians" has traditionally been an unstated (possibly stated even?) part of the decades of aid packages the US funnels into Egypt by the billion. Most of the US aid into the region carries that stipulation. It's so domestically unpopular to be taking american money and leaving palestinians out at the mercy of the Israelis that when the US is trying to buy cooperation it does not come cheap.
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May 13, 2021 18:23
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