(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Ferrinus posted:i really do urge people to just read capital itself, together with comrades if possible. it does help to know that marx is writing much of it in a defensive mode such that he's predicting and preemptively disarming bad-faith objections that his liberal contemporaries might have to various points An overly defensive theory-obsessed upper-class, well educated leftist Yeah I can see why that figure resonates with the movement (I kid) (mostly) (but think about it)
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May 18, 2021 18:10
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Celot posted:because establishing an islamic state has nothing to do with responding to material conditions yeah it does. the rise of isis corresponded directly with the collapse of state power and functional governance in large regions of iraq and syria. isis combined an on the ground movement with the military expertise of ex-baathist military officers and materiel and supply from friendly parties in turkey etc. + funding from oil sales.
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May 18, 2021 18:11
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Celot posted:because establishing an islamic state has nothing to do with responding to material conditions I think it does, though. There were material conditions that led to the forming of ISIS. edit: the posts directly above and below this one say it better
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May 18, 2021 18:12
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material conditions: my life loving sucks because of western imperialism oh look a (tiny) subset of my religion has a direct action solution to this
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May 18, 2021 18:12
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Celot posted:because establishing an islamic state has nothing to do with responding to material conditions violent religious fundamentalism is a very straightforward result of the class interests of the first world bourgeoisie leading to the systematic destruction of secular, socialist currents in the middle east. so, in many cases the exact same people turn to forms of resistance that have more staying power, because when you go to the global scale the principal contradiction is between imperialism and anti-imperialism, not managers and employees
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May 18, 2021 18:13
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mila kunis posted:yeah it does. the rise of isis corresponded directly with the collapse of state power and functional governance in large regions of iraq and syria. isis combined an on the ground movement with the military expertise of ex-baathist military officers and materiel and supply from friendly parties in turkey etc. + funding from oil sales. you idiot, you fool, celot is talking about the superstructural considerations of culture and religion, something which marx was famously ignorant of and never wrote about
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May 18, 2021 18:13
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:An overly defensive theory-obsessed upper-class, well educated leftist anyone who's dealt with really disingenuous people in d&d for more than a short stretch of time will recognize something in the way marx constructs his descriptions of surplus value
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May 18, 2021 18:14
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it's okay to say you don't understand how a theory might apply to a specific situation, and ask for an explanation. like the thread is here to learn. and you can even discuss it! but blanket statements like "nope can't be done"- wait that's an even better way to get people to explain it to you. carry on.
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May 18, 2021 18:15
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I need to get a new phone for books on tape because this one is like nearly ten years old and can barely hold enough charge to last two hours
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May 18, 2021 18:17
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Religion is actually just the newest evolutionary form of rabies and anyone who tries to explain violence as a result of extreme poverty and oppression is actually dumb. Religion is a powerful motivator for a lot of people. Poverty can motivate people to violence, but it’s not the only thing that can. Marwan al-Shehhi, for example, wasn’t poor. You can’t find one motivator and declare it to be the only motivator always and forever, not if you want to think critically. Yes. What I said was materially different from what they got out of it.
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May 18, 2021 18:18
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Celot posted:Religion is a powerful motivator for a lot of people. Poverty can motivate people to violence, but it’s not the only thing that can. Marwan al-Shehhi, for example, wasn’t poor. You can’t find one motivator and declare it to be the only motivator always and forever, not if you want to think critically. I think you might be confusing sociological and psychological concepts of motivation.
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May 18, 2021 18:19
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Ferrinus posted:violent religious fundamentalism is a very straightforward result of the class interests of the first world bourgeoisie leading to the systematic destruction of secular, socialist currents in the middle east. so, in many cases the exact same people turn to forms of resistance that have more staying power, because when you go to the global scale the principal contradiction is between imperialism and anti-imperialism, not managers and employees Then class interests can explain any hypothetical, and it stops being useful or meaningful. You’re taking it as a base assumption instead of an observed fact.
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May 18, 2021 18:21
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smarxist posted:for reading i recommend just reading The Man Himself, Marx is so fun, he's really witty and sarcastic at times, but sincere and he gets so passionate and disgusted with humanity, especially when he's writing on the capitalists and the immiseration of mankind to anyone on the fence about just reading the original marx, if you can get an ebook version a fun thing to do is ctrl-f for "bentham" (insipid, pedantic), "malthus" (that master in plagiarism), "john stuart" or "bourgeois" Here's bentham: quote:Classical economy always loved to conceive social capital as a fixed magnitude of a fixed degree of efficiency. But this prejudice was first established as a dogma by the arch-Philistine, Jeremy Bentham, that insipid, pedantic, leather- tongued oracle of the ordinary bourgeois intelligence of the 19th century.49 Bentham is among philosophers what Martin Tupper is among poets. Both could only have been manufactured in England. quote:Bentham is a purely English phenomenon. Not even excepting our philosopher, Christian Wolff, in no time and in no country has the most homespun commonplace ever strutted about in so self-satisfied a way. The principle of utility was no discovery of Bentham. He simply reproduced in his dull way what Helvétius and other Frenchmen had said with esprit in the 18th century. To know what is useful for a dog, one must study dog-nature. This nature itself is not to be deduced from the principle of utility. Applying this to man, he that would criticise all human acts, movements, relations, etc., by the principle of utility, must first deal with human nature in general, and then with human nature as modified in each historical epoch. Bentham makes short work of it. With the driest naiveté he takes the modern shopkeeper, especially the English shopkeeper, as the normal man. Whatever is useful to this queer normal man, and to his world, is absolutely useful. This yard-measure, then, he applies to past, present, and future. The Christian religion, e.g., is “useful,” “because it forbids in the name of religion the same faults that the penal code condemns in the name of the law.” Artistic criticism is “harmful,” because it disturbs worthy people in their enjoyment of Martin Tupper, etc. With such rubbish has the brave fellow, with his motto, “nuila dies sine line!,” piled up mountains of books. Had I the courage of my friend, Heinrich Heine, I should call Mr. Jeremy a genius in the way of bourgeois stupidity. - - - Also, his ongoing takedown on the bourgeois "abstinence" justification ("I deserve all my money because I abstain from spending it and invest in blah blah") is good:    - - - There are some gems in the quotations from the factory inspectors. The editions I've seen make them horrible giant blocks of paragraphs, even though they're really back 'n forth interviews. So you're tempted to just skim over them, but they're really good. But... hold on, wouldn't this be expensive??  Context: the bourgeois examiner doesn't understand why mine-owners appointing their own engineers (who can be fired if they say the wrong thing) to do the inspections might, I dunno, create a conflict of interest: 
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May 18, 2021 18:21
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I will only read theory if it is printed on rolling papers and I get a free ounce if I can explain what use value is
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May 18, 2021 18:23
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Celot posted:Religion is a powerful motivator for a lot of people. Poverty can motivate people to violence, but it’s not the only thing that can. Marwan al-Shehhi, for example, wasn’t poor. You can’t find one motivator and declare it to be the only motivator always and forever, not if you want to think critically. I'm a dumbass but nuh-uh
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May 18, 2021 18:23
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Celot posted:Yes. What I said was materially different from what they got out of it. you're either too dumb to understand why that take falls out of your post or you mean something different but are too dumb to convey that with your choice of words it's got to be one of the two because you're too dumb to have actually figured out (or even listened to) what marxism has to say about stuff like the propagation of violent religious ideation in a region that's been consistently ravaged by capital for generations. thinking that class conflict is the singular motivator of individual action, much less thinking that's what marx thought, is totally fuckin insane lmao
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May 18, 2021 18:24
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I don't think religion can be separated from class even before you start trying to think about what ISIS' deal is
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May 18, 2021 18:26
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Celot posted:Religion is a powerful motivator for a lot of people. Poverty can motivate people to violence, but it’s not the only thing that can. Marwan al-Shehhi, for example, wasn’t poor. You can’t find one motivator and declare it to be the only motivator always and forever, not if you want to think critically. If you want to take specific individuals and try to figure out "why did they do this?" then you're probably asking for a Freudian or at least psychological analysis. if you want to know why nearly everyone in Iraq hates the United States and will risk their lives trying to kill American soldiers, well, it may have something to do to the complete destruction of their power grid, the new scarcity of drinkable water, or maybe they just know someone the Americans killed. Celot posted:Then class interests can explain any hypothetical, and it stops being useful or meaningful. You must have typoed something here, because as-written you appear to be claiming that class interests are too useful and therefore useless?
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May 18, 2021 18:26
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tokin opposition posted:I will only read theory if it is printed on rolling papers and I get a free ounce if I can explain what use value is Move to Cuba 
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May 18, 2021 18:27
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It wasn't just religion lol the majority of Kurds are sunni too.
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May 18, 2021 18:28
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Celot posted:Then class interests can explain any hypothetical, and it stops being useful or meaningful. You’re taking it as a base assumption instead of an observed fact. no, not at all. historical materialism would be confused to the point of maybe being falsified if, rather than what was happened, the western imperialist project proceeded smoothly apace exactly as predicted and iraq, libya, etc. were now functional liberal democracies whose inhabitants made no attempt to resist their own exploitation
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May 18, 2021 18:28
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May 18, 2021 18:29
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engels even complains directly about dumbass kids totally failing to get his and marx's body of work in the exact same way celot is doing lmao https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/letters/90_09_21.htm
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May 18, 2021 18:32
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Jon Joe posted:it's okay to say you don't understand how a theory might apply to a specific situation, and ask for an explanation. like the thread is here to learn. and you can even discuss it! but blanket statements like "nope can't be done"- wait that's an even better way to get people to explain it to you. carry on. The problem is now that the theory can be applied to any hypothetical situation. It can explain too much. Like resorting to God to explain the diversity of life.
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May 18, 2021 18:32
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an important point to make about the base/superstructure model is that beliefs like "black people are lazy" or "women are nurturing" are part of the superstructure, but really-existing division of labor on the basis of race and gender are better understood as being part of the base
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May 18, 2021 18:32
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Celot posted:The problem is now that the theory can be applied to any hypothetical situation. It can explain too much. Like resorting to God to explain the diversity of life. no, you only think this is possible because you don't understand what marxism (specifically dialectical materialism) is but are too stupid to recognize that you don't understand it and because of that think you "get" it (you do not)
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May 18, 2021 18:35
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Celot posted:Then class interests can explain any hypothetical, and it stops being useful or meaningful. You’re taking it as a base assumption instead of an observed fact. i have no idea what you're trying to say. are you asking "why isn't ISIS communist?" if so: refugees and peoples in wartime have had their societies completely violently destroyed at the behest of, or by, parties like the USA and the kingdom of saudi arabia and are looking for stability, security and food. groups like the taliban or ISIS could provide (or were in the process of providing) governance, in part because of organizational backing by regional partners (for eg. pakistan) who would never in a million years back a secular communist movement. in addition, the communist movement had been thoroughly destroyed in those regions with the aid of anti-communist international members the USA and the kingdom of saudi arabia.
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May 18, 2021 18:35
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Cpt_Obvious posted:If you want to know why nearly everyone in Iraq hates the United States and will risk their lives trying to kill American soldiers, well, it may have something to do to the complete destruction of their power grid, the new scarcity of drinkable water, or maybe they just know someone the Americans killed. Of course. We can see the material condition causing the response. Makes sense.
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May 18, 2021 18:36
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Celot posted:The problem is now that the theory can be applied to any hypothetical situation. It can explain too much. Like resorting to God to explain the diversity of life. Marxist theory typically deals with sociological concerns. It makes no predictions of, say, chemistry or physics. It is a very overarching theory, known as a framework, from which more specific theories can be derived and potentially falsified.
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May 18, 2021 18:36
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:no, you only think this is possible because you don't understand what marxism (specifically dialectical materialism) is but are too stupid to recognize that you don't understand it and because of that think you "get" it (you do not) It’s a set of base assumptions. It’s an unfalsifiable lens for viewing the world.
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May 18, 2021 18:38
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tell us your thoughts on epistemology and the limitations of logical systems celot
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May 18, 2021 18:40
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Celot posted:It’s a set of base assumptions. It’s an unfalsifiable lens for viewing the world. marxism is an analysis (really, a set of analytical tools). you think it's bad because you've reduced it to libertarianism in your head (people are perfect atomic actors motivated by economic interests alone) and therefore think its bad. its not a crime to not know something, but it's absolutely dumb as hell to have no idea what you're talking about when you wade your dumb rear end into the marxism thread to say "well actually it sucks. it cant explain isis!!!!"
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May 18, 2021 18:44
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smarxist posted:for reading i recommend just reading The Man Himself, Marx is so fun, he's really witty and sarcastic at times, but sincere and he gets so passionate and disgusted with humanity, especially when he's writing on the capitalists and the immiseration of mankind I’ve read Marx and idk if it’s the translations or what but I just don’t enjoy it, I find Engels much more pleasant and readable Ferrinus posted:marx is writing much of it in a defensive mode such that he's predicting and preemptively disarming bad-faith objections that his liberal contemporaries might have to various points like I get why this would be informative and helpful but it sounds so tedious AnimeIsTrash posted:Reading theory? I'd rather be sucking on some juicy tits instead. I mean, who wouldn’t
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May 18, 2021 18:47
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wrap it up marxailures 
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May 18, 2021 18:48
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tokin opposition posted:tell us your thoughts on epistemology and the limitations of logical systems celot Some of the ways of knowing are good but very limited: logic and science to name two. Some are totally invalid, such as faith and Marxism.
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May 18, 2021 18:50
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Celot posted:Some of the ways of knowing are good but very limited: logic and science to name two. Some are totally invalid, such as faith and Marxism. Would it be safe to say your prior is that Marxism is insufficient?
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May 18, 2021 18:50
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:marxism is an analysis (really, a set of analytical tools). you think it's bad because you've reduced it to libertarianism in your head (people are perfect atomic actors motivated by economic interests alone) and therefore think its bad. No, it either can’t explain ISIS or it can explain every hypothetical.
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May 18, 2021 18:51
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Reading theory? I'd rather be sucking on some juicy tits instead. Why choose 
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May 18, 2021 18:52
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Celot posted:It’s a set of base assumptions. It’s an unfalsifiable lens for viewing the world. by your explicitly stated criteria, so is evolution
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May 18, 2021 18:54
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Celot posted:It’s a set of base assumptions. It’s an unfalsifiable lens for viewing the world. wow a popperist in the 21st century, and he thinks he is smarter than marx? oh do tell more
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May 18, 2021 18:56
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