(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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DirtyRobot posted:Context: the bourgeois examiner doesn't understand why mine-owners appointing their own engineers (who can be fired if they say the wrong thing) to do the inspections might, I dunno, create a conflict of interest: This was a big thing in immediately prerevolutionary Russia. There were various rules and regulations saying that workers were to be protected by factory inspectors or doctors or what have you, but the responsibility was typically placed on the factory owner to provide these things, especially the doctors. Naturally, factory owners only hired people who would inevitably take their side in any complaint, dispute, or incident, so the rules were completely ineffective. Workplace injuries, for example, were supposed to be investigated by factory doctors, but the factory doctors would inevitably just find that the factory was fine and the worker was at fault for their own injury. Or, workers theoretically had the right to complain about conditions, but the people they were expected to complain to would immediately rat them out to the factory boss and get them fired, so they never did.
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May 18, 2021 19:42
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Celot posted:Being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Russia and being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Iraq. hmm yes, similar indeed
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May 18, 2021 19:42
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almost like different temporal and geographical limitations combined with different material conditions give rise to different outcomes 🤔 nah, j/k j/k, that can’t be true ... unless????
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May 18, 2021 19:43
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Celot posted:Being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Russia and being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Iraq. two big differences here: 1. iraq was invaded and conquered owing to being too small and nuke-less to realistically resist 2. russians mostly count as white in fact thanks to poverty and deprivation you DO see burgeoning reactionary movements in and around russia, but the conditions aren't so similar that you literally get eastern orthodox isis (as cool as that would be)
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May 18, 2021 19:44
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Celot posted:Sure. Do you think they established an Islamic state? do you think groups in Russia during 1917 weren’t trying to establish an Islamic state?
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May 18, 2021 19:44
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hey Celot what are your thoughts on the origin of gender? Is it innate, learned, performed, or fake? Also what is this thread's thoughts on judith butler
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May 18, 2021 19:45
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Celot posted:Being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Russia and being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Iraq. if your argument is that Marxism is a failure because it wouldn't predict similar outcomes from Russia 1917 and Iraq 2013, then every single analytical framework, and indeed all of human thought and rationality, would be a failure
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May 18, 2021 19:45
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wait we're comparing 1917 russia to 2003 iraq, not the contemporary versions of each?? lmao
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May 18, 2021 19:46
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if marxism is such a good framework for analysing history and society and the course of events then why were things different in two completely different societies with completely different histories at different times?
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May 18, 2021 19:46
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tokin opposition posted:Also what is this thread's thoughts on judith butler I like Judith Butler a lot.
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May 18, 2021 19:47
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Ferrinus posted:wait we're comparing 1917 russia to 2003 iraq, not the contemporary versions of each?? lmao idk that’s just the first thing I thought of given that idk if you can describe contemporary Russia as war-torn
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May 18, 2021 19:47
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Brain Candy posted:like drat this descarte guy doesn't believe in objective reality, that's why he invented the mathematics that's used in engineering  It was a throwaway jab because this dude is arguing in circles.
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May 18, 2021 19:48
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Celot posted:You’re welcome to post your objections. does Marxism say which sandwich i eat is class struggle?
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May 18, 2021 19:49
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Ferrinus posted:two big differences here: In point of fact, immediately following Russia's 1905 revolution there were a series of reactionary groups founded that were close enough to Eastern Orthodox ISIS that the comparison could work. The Black Hundreds, Union of the Russian People, Union of the Archangel Michael, etc., were all radical right groups that were hardcore ethnic nationalists, autocratic monarchists, religious fundamentalists, etc. They were essentially responding to the same material conditions as Russian socialists, but they were also responding to the rise of socialism itself and to the limited constitutionalism that was implemented after 1905. They stuck around as state-supported paramilitaries for a few years, committing pogroms and beating up leftists workers in the streets, but by 1917 they were basically irrelevant to the overall politics of the Empire because the vast majority of the Russian population turned against tsarism and towards socialism as conditions kept worsening during WWI.
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May 18, 2021 19:49
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Cpt_Obvious posted:
oh i know. i just felt bitchy no harm friend
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May 18, 2021 19:49
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Celot posted:Sure. Do you think they established an Islamic state? cross out islam and yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hundreds
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May 18, 2021 19:50
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i really do not understand the argument at play here. is it that because not all revolutions are communist that marx is wrong
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May 18, 2021 19:52
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i really do not understand the argument at play here. is it that because not all revolutions are communist that marx is wrong literally yes
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May 18, 2021 19:52
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John Charity Spring posted:if marxism is such a good framework for analysing history and society and the course of events then why were things different in two completely different societies with completely different histories at different times? Basically yeah.
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May 18, 2021 19:53
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Ferrinus posted:eastern orthodox isis (as cool as that would be) it, in fact, was not cool https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Guard
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May 18, 2021 19:54
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Celot posted:Being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Russia and being totally hosed up by war and poverty in Iraq. I get the feeling you're going at ISIS by denouncing a lack of access to books and education
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May 18, 2021 19:54
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Celot posted:Basically yeah. this isn’t what you were arguing though re: tides. this is like asking “how come if the theory predicts high tides in New Jersey there are low tides in California” e: or more accurately “if the theory predicts high tides at noon why can’t I meaningfully measure the gravitational effect of the Moon on my glass of water with a six inch ruler”
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May 18, 2021 19:54
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If anything a cleaner analogue might be the westernization of Petrine Russia because it was a cultural assimilation/destruction of "traditional" Russia and further loving of the peasants and the response was a huge nationalistic pushback from the serfs and Cossacks who formed or further entrenched their own territories (oblasts) as a reaction So... yeah
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May 18, 2021 19:55
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:If anything a cleaner analogue might be the westernization of Petrine Russia because it was a cultural assimilation/destruction of "traditional" Russia and further loving of the peasants and the response was a huge nationalistic pushback from the serfs and Cossacks who formed or further entrenched their own territories (oblasts) as a reaction death to the beard tax
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May 18, 2021 19:55
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Raskolnikov38 posted:it, in fact, was not cool 😔
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May 18, 2021 19:56
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Celot posted:No, Marxism is invalid. It takes something that should be a contingent truth, an observation, and makes it an assumption instead. This is absolutely ludicrous lmao but a great example of the old standby "the best way to get the right answer online isn't to ask the question, it's to post the wrong answer"
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May 18, 2021 19:57
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Celot posted:Basically yeah. Ok, this got a chuckle from me.
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May 18, 2021 19:58
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Celot posted:Basically yeah. Celot what kind of leftist would you say you are?
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May 18, 2021 20:00
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indigi posted:this isn’t what you were arguing though re: tides. this is like asking “how come if the theory predicts high tides in New Jersey there are low tides in California” No, because the explanation for ISIS would predict ISIS for Russia too. Not the case with tide analogy.
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May 18, 2021 20:02
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Celot posted:No, because the explanation for ISIS would predict ISIS for Russia too. Not the case with tide analogy. That's only true if you think Russia in 1917 and Syria/Iraq in 2014 have literally identical material conditions.
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May 18, 2021 20:04
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just want to point out that there literally were a bunch of uprisings in russian turkestan starting in 1916 and going all throughout the russian civil war, with the end-goal of a unified muslim superstate in central asia. that famous guy everyone hates, enver pasha, was even one of its leaders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmachi_movement
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May 18, 2021 20:06
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Celot posted:No, because the explanation for ISIS would predict ISIS for Russia too. Not the case with tide analogy. no it wouldn’t because the *material conditions* of Russia (in 1917 or today) and 2006 Iraq aren’t meaningfully “similar” for instance, radically different demographics
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May 18, 2021 20:07
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Celot posted:No, because the explanation for ISIS would predict ISIS for Russia too. Not the case with tide analogy. this is definitely not the case either with post-soviet russia (which is what i thought you meant) or with post-ww1 russia. 1917 russia just does not have the same relationship with the usa or The West as the contemporary middle east does. there are some loose similarities (and as multiple people have pointed out, fundamentalist religious militias DO pop up) but this is like complaining that the tides of a planet with three moons don't resemble the tides of earth
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May 18, 2021 20:07
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indigi posted:no it wouldn’t because the *material conditions* of Russia (in 1917 or today) and 2006 Iraq aren’t meaningfully “similar” a seemingly more trivial but also extremely material difference: no internet
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May 18, 2021 20:07
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vyelkin posted:That's only true if you think Russia in 1917 and Syria/Iraq in 2014 have literally identical material conditions. Then the theory has no predictive power.
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May 18, 2021 20:09
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Would you say there's anything your freakin' love?
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May 18, 2021 20:10
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indigi posted:no it wouldn’t because the *material conditions* of Russia (in 1917 or today) and 2006 Iraq aren’t meaningfully “similar” Yes, one place is populated mostly by Muslim fundamentalists, and the other is not. The mental state of people is not a material condition.
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May 18, 2021 20:10
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Malleum posted:just want to point out that there literally were a bunch of uprisings in russian turkestan starting in 1916 and going all throughout the russian civil war, with the end-goal of a unified muslim superstate in central asia. that famous guy everyone hates, enver pasha, was even one of its leaders. And that one of the goals during the numerous 17-1800s rebellions was the reestablishment of the Russian Orthodox church as the de facto authority over the tsars
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May 18, 2021 20:10
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Celot posted:Yes, one place is populated mostly by Muslim fundamentalists, and the other is not. so your example is totally worthless, have another?
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May 18, 2021 20:11
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Celot posted:Then the theory has no predictive power. that doesn't follow. if a theory makes different predictions for different situations, isn't that more reasonable than it making the same prediction for different situations? is the theory of gravity invalid if it makes a different prediction for a ball which is held in the air and released than it does for a ball which is sitting on the ground?
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May 18, 2021 20:11
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