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life_source posted:Hey, maybe you or another poster can help me out here, but what abuse exactly has Tony heaped upon Antimony? Can you link to the page, or even just what chapter it was in? I've read through the last few chapters about 3 times and I still can't find any. Help a guy out here? https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1002 This chapter might help to start, this shows that Tony is causing his daughter to suffer because he contacts her out of nowhere after abandoning her, because HE wants to hear her voice and he needs stuff. He's ignoring her needs or anything about how she feels because he's only interested in what she can provide for himself, both in terms of access to physical goods and his own emotional needs. https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1486 Here he shows back up, unannounced to her as her teacher. Immediately he singles her out, ridicules her in front of the class, punishes her for not being around when he was handing out books because her sent her out. Shows a complete lack of acknowledging her feelings when she shows concern for his hand, pulls her out of her classes for the rest of the day, tells her she's moving out of her dorm room to live on her own. Also she has to pass control of Rey over to him. When we see her again around https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1503 we can see she's cut her hair (You could link this later to the fact this makes her look less like Surma, something that her father has a clear issue with as linked by Niavmai) and is doing all she can to hold herself together. But wait, you might say, Annie was the one cheating and wearing makeup against the rules and that means she DESERVES to suffer all of that. Well, guess who wasn't around to be a parent. The neglect is Abuse, the way he treats her is Abuse, the way he shows no concern for her other than how she makes him feel is Abuse.
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May 19, 2021 15:59
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"Hey Donnie it's Tony. The court are dragging me back. They have me teaching, can you believe it. I should probably meet my daughter in private before showing up in her class. Also you know how I get so here's some stuff you should know in case I lose it completely" Vs Whatever the he'll he thought he was doing That's abuse. Intentionally? Obviously not, but that's life scarring stuff Splicer fucked around with this message at 16:09 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 16:07
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He essentially did the same as dumping her on Gunnerkrigg's doorstep with an esoteric bank account attached. He didn't tell her he disappeared, nor anyone else. Kat's parents only found out through Kat. He didn't try and set her up with any "foster" care or adult figures to watch after her. Her mom just died, and her father focused on himself and his grief and left Annie, a 13? year old, to basically figure it out. Annie only really had a friend because Anja suggested Kat talk to her. Annie only really had a support system thanks to Kat. It was nothing Tony did. I have made more effort to work on my social anxiety and work with my odd habits regarding my friends and family than Tony has for his own daughter. I have a responsibility to those in my life to do better, or at least help them understand. That is x100 when it's your own child who looks up to you and will do anything for your approval. Also, here's a psychology dot com regarding neglect and abuse: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201904/neglect-is-form-abuse quote:Neglect is the absence of something happening. How do you identify and reflect on something that never happened? Such clients think: “If nothing overtly abusive happened, then I wasn’t abused, and I shouldn’t be responding as if I was.” Edit: I'll go ahead and add these too: quote:Emotional/Psychological Abandonment: When people hear the word abandonment, they usually think about being physically left behind. But that is not the only form of abandonment. Emotional abandonment occurs when parents are physically present but emotionally absent. There are there and not there at the same time. This form of neglect negatively impacts a child’s self-esteem. The younger a child is when he or she experiences this form of abuse, the more damaging it becomes. catapede fucked around with this message at 16:11 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 16:08
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Also, didn't Surma very specifically want Annie as far from the court as possible? It's weird that he sent her there at all, unless I'm forgetting something, which I probably am.
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May 19, 2021 16:11
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GlyphGryph posted:Also, didn't Surma very specifically want Annie as far from the court as possible? It's weird that he sent her there at all, unless I'm forgetting something, which I probably am. think it was the opposite of that. e: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=26
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May 19, 2021 16:13
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Oh, maybe I was confusing it for her wanting herself to be as far from the court as possible. Hence the human hospital in a remote location instead of one at a place that might have been equipped to help.
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May 19, 2021 16:15
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Niavmai posted:maybe should have thought of that before killing his own wife, eh? Wait! You're the troll here! I can't believe I fell for it! I'm such a fool! Potsticker posted:https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1002 This chapter might help to start, this shows that Tony is causing his daughter to suffer because he contacts her out of nowhere after abandoning her, because HE wants to hear her voice and he needs stuff. He's ignoring her needs or anything about how she feels because he's only interested in what she can provide for himself, both in terms of access to physical goods and his own emotional needs. Whoof. Yikes. That's a fair interpretation of the first one. I disagree because "the first person I thought of" and "I never wanted to involve her in this". It was a instinctive reaction, he is not "only interested in what she can provide for himself". Bad, neglectful dad not realizing what he is doing? Yes. "Shows a complete lack of acknowledging her feelings when she shows concern for his hand, pulls her out of her classes for the rest of the day, tells her she's moving out of her dorm room to live on her own." How is any of this abuse? You are required to acknowledge someone feelings or it's abuse? And those second two. Those are things dictated by the court, not him. You can disagree with how he implemented them, but I don't see how it's abusive. As far as Anthony knows Reynardine is a dangerous killer demon. He just got back and hasn't talked to anyone because of his own social anxiety and shame over failing Surma and failing to do anything but make the situation worse afterwards. He doesn't know the relationship they have, but turns around and give it back after she asks because he learned otherwise. Everyone's favourite wolf dilf who is actually physically abusive is confused by Antimony's reaction. Anthony didn't do that to her, Antimony did it to herself because she was desperate and misinterpretted something Ysengrin told her. I'm still not seeing a lot of abuse. Just bad dading from a broken person who changes to be less bad. It feels like these are all very negative interpretations of Anthony perscribing malicious intent that isn't supported by valid readings of the comic. But again, I don't know. But I am learning a lot. EDIT: quote:Also, here's a psychology dot com regarding neglect and abuse: Thank for you this, I will read it later. life_source fucked around with this message at 16:23 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 16:18
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Here's the page where Tiny says Surma didn't want her daughter born in "this place": https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1548 Edit: I may disagree with you, Life_Source, but I appreciate you're not being a snarky twit about it.
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May 19, 2021 16:20
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catapede posted:Kat's parents only found out through Kat. https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=414 No, Anja found out through the school.
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May 19, 2021 16:22
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life_source posted:perscribing malicious intent i think this is where our communications are failing. i don't think there's any malice in any of his actions. you can be abusive without meaning to be.
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May 19, 2021 16:22
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That's when she found out Annie was arriving, not that Tony disappeared. I think someone linked the page. I'd find it, but I have a class about to start X3 Edit: It was actually your post, Life: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=104 Donnie says, "Katerina told us you've not been able to contact him?" Ok, starting class XD catapede fucked around with this message at 16:31 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 16:23
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life_source posted:"Shows a complete lack of acknowledging her feelings when she shows concern for his hand, pulls her out of her classes for the rest of the day, tells her she's moving out of her dorm room to live on her own." Niavmai posted:i think this is where our communications are failing. i don't think there's any malice in any of his actions. you can be abusive without meaning to be. Splicer fucked around with this message at 16:28 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 16:25
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life_source posted:
What changes has he made to be less bad? He hasn't changed anything at all other than he's at the court now. "bad dading" is the abuse. Abuse doesn't have to be due to malicious intent. And him whinging that it's not his fault and it's this mind cage of his is just shifting the blame, it's not his fault, he swears! But his inaction has caused harm and continues to cause harm. He harms Annie and he harms himself.
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May 19, 2021 16:36
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Why didn't he assign a legal guardian.
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May 19, 2021 16:38
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Potsticker posted:What changes has he made to be less bad? He hasn't changed anything at all other than he's at the court now. Gave Reynardine back no questions asked, let her go back to her very real job as the Forest medium, let her go into the Forst with full confidence in her abilities after the Loupaclysm, asked her to live with him instead of in the talllongroom alone. He trusts her now as a person. Thank you to everyone though. I will ponder on this. I will also admit that I am conflating a lot of "Anthony is abusive" with "Tony is actively a monster". EDIT: Lurdiak posted:Why didn't he assign a legal guardian. Because he was trying to run away from his shame and failure as fast as possible and doing something like that would slow him down. gotta mindcage fast life_source fucked around with this message at 16:47 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 16:45
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life_source posted:"Shows a complete lack of acknowledging her feelings when she shows concern for his hand, pulls her out of her classes for the rest of the day, tells her she's moving out of her dorm room to live on her own." Yes. If you are in a parental role and you consistently fail to address your child's emotional needs, that is abuse. Those quoted here are just the immediate aftermath of Tony's return. There's an clear pattern that, outside of the split, Tony is incapable of doing so directly. He's said as much on multiple occasions. However, he also has made no effort to provide Annie the needed support through others. Despite having no intentional malice, he is still actively harming his daughter any time he cannot mentally separate her from his wife and the associated grief.
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May 19, 2021 16:48
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life_source posted:Gave Reynardine back no questions asked, let her go back to her very real job as the Forest medium, let her go into the Forst with full confidence in her abilities after the Loupaclysm, asked her to live with him instead of in the talllongroom alone. He trusts her now as a person. "Let her have back the things she used to have and do" is still a very passive thing, that's not the same thing as making a change, specifically not a change in how he behaves, acts, or treats her. You say he trusts her as a person, but maybe it'll help to frame it like this: She had to prove her own worth to him in order for him to treat her like a person. And treating her like a person, again, is just letting her return to some sort of normalcy that she had before he came back. Going back to a previous state, for her, is not forward momentum. Not for her, and not for him.
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May 19, 2021 16:50
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Bell_ posted:"Jones is old" crowd checking in. While this long monologue very well could lead to something justifying it, it's worth keeping in mind it's bad for the comic's format. Week-to-week manga series, such as in Shonen Jump, are very concerned about multiple levels of pacing based on different types of readers. They need to keep the following groups of readers happy: 1) Week-to-week readers. Interesting things need to happen each weekly chapter, to entertain the people who read as it releases. 2) Readers that pick up in the middle. Small narrative breaks / climaxes / cliffhangers need to happen every 5 or so chapters. This helps people who start reading midway through a series have a good starting point, who don't want to read possibly hundreds of chapters in order to follow along. This also makes for good episode breaks if the series takes off and gets an anime. 3) People who only buy the physical compilation books. Big narrative climaxes or cliffhangers need to happen every few dozen chapters, for when the series gets an independent physical release. These physical releases compile a bunch of chapters together, so the author needs to ensure the pacing makes for a thrilling ending in these books that leaves the reader wanting to buy more. 4) Readers that only binge read huge sections at a time. There needs to be an overall satisfying narrative for the people reading in bulk online, possibly after the series is completed. Gunnerkrigg passes number 4 pretty easily I think, though it's not done yet so who knows - however bulk reading the series is enjoyable so pass. Tom's summer breaks are also excellent examples of number 3, though admittedly I haven't read just the physical books so I'm not sure if they exactly work well. How gunnerkrigg does "chapters" fits number 2 well enough, if someone joins in the middle of a chapter it won't be too long before a new one starts, giving them a fresh new story to follow with if they don't want to reread the entire series. I think where Tom struggles is in number 1. Where manga series have to make each chapter interesting, Tom has to make each individual page interesting. A boring one here or there isn't the end of the world, in fact they can be relatively common as long as narrative progress is consistently made, but overall you need to make sure the week-to-week readers are happy. Overall Gunnerkrigg is fine with this, but it's definitely the weak point. Tom likes to have some setups over the course of several pages / chapters, and while that can be very satisfying when it's paid off it can be boring or frustrating before then for the weekly readers. Yes, it can be hard to make every page interesting and keep good long-term pacing, but it's worth pointing out that Tom is the one who sets the release schedule. If Tom wants to release a page every few days, it might not be the best decision to go for as many long-term payoffs as he does. I know Monday Wednesday Friday is a webcomic gold standard, but I think Gunnerkrigg is well-established enough to break that mold and go for something that would better benefit the narrative. Imagine if every Friday we got three pages at once? Or every month we got an entire chapter (or maybe half a chapter) all at once? A think a lot of the complaints and concerns shown in the thread would vanish, or at least be lessened, because then it doesn't feel like UUUUGH THIS MONOLOGUE JUST WILL NEVER END, because we'd get the whole narrative of an entire chapter at once, or at least most of one. Even if it's just weekly three page releases, then Tom could take more care to ensure 1/3 of the pages have something more interesting and unique happen to make up for any relatively mundane dialogue that's needed to move the plot.
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May 19, 2021 16:52
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life_source posted:Gave Reynardine back no questions asked, let her go back to her very real job as the Forest medium, let her go into the Forst with full confidence in her abilities after the Loupaclysm, asked her to live with him instead of in the talllongroom alone. He trusts her now as a person. only the first of those is any real credit to him. 'allowing her to continue doing the stuff that she was already doing' can't really be a credit towards him. and if he feels himself a Bad Dad enough to abandon her before, how is making her live with him a good thing? small individual acts of decency are not the same as growth or change, nor do they undo the years of damage. he neglected her while surma was still alive, ditched her when surma was gone, and only came back to make any effort towards her after being threatened. he does not bear ill-will towards her, but he's been unable to separate her as a person from him and his failures, and that in itself is a form of abuse. she is her own person, and his inability to accept that is what we're defining as abuse. he and his wife made the decision to have her, was there simply no discussion of what should be done if he fails? i dont think surma would have gone with "send her to the court, and then i dunno, gently caress off to wherever?"
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May 19, 2021 16:53
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and none of this touches on the secondary problem, which is, again, that tony is just dull. his problems are very ordinary no matter how much he gussies them up and most of the comic's energy is spent either downplaying or glamorizing the consequences of his actions. we've spent years strapping on a scuba suit to explore a puddle
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May 19, 2021 16:53
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Splicer posted:"Hey Donnie it's Tony. The court are dragging me back. They have me teaching, can you believe it. I should probably meet my daughter in private before showing up in her class. " iirc it is heavily implied if not outright said that the court purposefully did not allow this
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May 19, 2021 16:53
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Niavmai posted:only the first of those is any real credit to him. 'allowing her to continue doing the stuff that she was already doing' can't really be a credit towards him. and if he feels himself a Bad Dad enough to abandon her before, how is making her live with him a good thing? To touch on this too, the small individual acts of decency, but it can be hard for victims of abuse to recognize abuse when there are these things that they can point to, where it goes hand in hand with "well, they're not maliciously doing these things" which is "well, they're pleasant some/most of the time and did these things" which aren't things that, if you look back on, actually doesn't make up for the various things you do suffer from as a result of the neglect and abuse.
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May 19, 2021 17:05
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Captain Oblivious posted:There is nothing fishy going on. There is no other shoe waiting to drop. The narrative is clearly framing her fusion as an unambiguous mental state good which is now allowing her to act as a mouthpiece for the author to directly tell you how you should feel about things/what the intended moral takeaway is. i do get moffat vibes though, when sherlock fans thought "well it can't be resolving like this, surely there's more". but tom is generally a good writer & artist and moffat is a gremlin who hates his audience
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May 19, 2021 17:50
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GunnerJ posted:Comic feels stuck in a hamster wheel. so does the thread
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May 19, 2021 18:03
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Potsticker posted:"Let her have back the things she used to have and do" is still a very passive thing, that's not the same thing as making a change, specifically not a change in how he behaves, acts, or treats her. Coyote did also have to show up and knock over some buildings in the Court before Tony conceded and said Annie could return to forest medium duties. There was some external pressure being applied there (from Coyote and the Court to pacify Coyote) for Tony to relax that restriction. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 18:14 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 18:10
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Bleck posted:iirc it is heavily implied if not outright said that the court purposefully did not allow this Everyone seems strangely okay with the outright abusive way the court handles many of its students.
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May 19, 2021 18:14
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Oxxidation posted:and none of this touches on the secondary problem, which is, again, that tony is just dull. his problems are very ordinary no matter how much he gussies them up and most of the comic's energy is spent either downplaying or glamorizing the consequences of his actions. we've spent years strapping on a scuba suit to explore a puddle This page is kinda like the distillation of what you're talking about here. All set up to convey that I'm supposed to care about all this detail about this apparently interesting subject but it's really obvious the character is just boring as poo poo.
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May 19, 2021 18:27
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Bilirubin posted:so does the thread 
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May 19, 2021 18:28
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Bilirubin posted:so does the thread I mean, when the thing we're dedicated to discussing is stuck in a loop we're going to be stuck too. Anyway, as bored as I am with this chapter and Tony in general, I can't really say Annie's view of him is an unreasonable one to take. She's not basing her happiness on him changing, she's come to terms with how he is and how she feels about him. She only has control over her behavior, not his actions. Also, I don't it's nessicaraly a bad thing that how she feels about him now is basically the same as how she initially felt about. Her beliefs were challenged and stressed tested and she found new ways of looking at things and new justifications that lead her to the same point of view. At the end of the day Annie's opinion of what happened to her is the one that matters most, and if thinking of her father in this way is the way that fills her with the most acceptance and contentment and doesn't lead to any negative impact on her daily life or relationships then it's fine. It's been boring as hell to read about and I'm ready for it to be over, but from a psychological standpoint it's one of the many reasonable ways for an adult to come to acceptance with the abuse and neglect they experienced as a child (note: to be clear, there is no wrong way to feel about abuse you've experienced. You might feel the way Annie does about her dad about your abusers, or you might hate their guts forever, or you might feel some different third way. Everyone's emotions are their own and they're allowed to have and emotions are complicated and different for everyone and there's no right answer about how to feel.)
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May 19, 2021 18:29
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:I mean, when the thing we're dedicated to discussing is stuck in a loop we're going to be stuck too. No we are more like stuck in a hole, asking to be helped out of the hole, but keep digging down because people refuse to let go.
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May 19, 2021 18:58
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Tbh, I have wished for a long time that Gunnerkrigg would shift from 3 updates a week to releasing things in solid chunks with more time in-between instead. I feel like it could free the narrative up for the better. Yes I could just not check first thing when I wake up, but the story won't be told differently if I do that. Also, I have poor self-control haha. Before anyone says I'm telling Tom what to do, that's not my intention and I'm not trying to criticize him at all for sticking with the 3 pages/week format. It's his comic and he could end it tomorrow if he wanted. It's just like, my opinion, man. Edit: Bilirubin posted:so does the thread Lol guilty as charged. I'm personally done discussing "Abuse or Not?". For real this time hahaha. catapede fucked around with this message at 19:15 on May 19, 2021 |
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May 19, 2021 19:03
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A lot of people find Tony exhausting but honestly I think it's the discourse more than the actual character that's so wearying. He's been the focus of, what, four, five chapters since being introduced six years ago? With maybe two or three more where he plays a notable part. Once he'd settled in the comic really hasn't hammered on about him much, though. The fandom sure has though. Every time he has a line we relitigate the whole "Should Tony be punished for his abuse / should the comic make an explicit statement he is bad / should Annie stop loving him" argument, and I don't just mean us in this thread. It definitely inflates his impact if you're engaged in the fandom at all.
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May 19, 2021 19:48
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Tony needs help, but he should still be judged for the terrible things he has done.
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May 19, 2021 20:06
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tonykrigg court
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May 19, 2021 20:34
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going to lol when Tony heroically sacrifices himself to save everyone towards the end of the comic
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May 19, 2021 20:45
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Line Feed posted:tonykrigg court
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May 19, 2021 20:50
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Line Feed posted:going to lol when Tony heroically sacrifices himself to save everyone towards the end of the comic I hope the description of the page reads "That guy heroically sacrificing himself is Tony, by the way."
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May 19, 2021 22:19
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I really love that Jones has not taken a single step and Antimony has walked all the hell over this little porch back and forth staring at distant scenery. Let the teen have her soapbox moment, why the hell not.
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May 19, 2021 22:19
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ElMaligno posted:Tony needs help, but he should still be judged for the terrible things he has done. True, but in every sense, it's not about him, it's about Annie. Who is, in fact, judging him right here and now on the comic.
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May 19, 2021 22:43
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CJacobs posted:I really love that Jones has not taken a single step and Antimony has walked all the hell over this little porch back and forth staring at distant scenery. Let the teen have her soapbox moment, why the hell not. Hahaha. CJacobs posted:I hope the description of the page reads "That guy heroically sacrificing himself is Tony, by the way." I think my favorite page text was during Microsat 5 about Donny: "He does the crossword every day."
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May 19, 2021 22:44
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