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davidbix posted:No offense, but I got the impression that this was a "trust the viewers enough to not constantly hold their hands" thing that you and others didn't catch? The way that Mike Chinoy was cut with Bischoff made it pretty clear that "Rikidozan was killed for being Korean" was DPRK propaganda. Whether Bischoff knew that or not, I dunno—the trip, understandably, has clearly stuck with him in a way where he's largely giving detailed, honest memories where he'd normally be bullshitting and/or covering for not remembering—but I didn't feel like we were supposed to take him as authoritative and at face value in that moment. Oh, I'm not really lambasting the episode on that point, I'm saying that the modern history between Japan and the Korean peninsula is why it was so easy for them to make the propaganda in the first place, and that it wouldn't matter in that case if Rikidozan were "North Korean" or "South Korean". The labels were unnecessary, Japanese colonisation affected the entire peninsula. Dunno who Mike Chinoy is. EDIT: The Rikidozan bit was only a part of it. The "North Korea and Japan have been fighting for centuries" bit as mentioned was mega cringe. Hedgehog Pie fucked around with this message at 04:30 on May 22, 2021 |
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May 22, 2021 04:28
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this season is really good but sometimes the limitations of the format shine through (having to do acts building to a break, then recapping coming back from the break, etc.) I had no clue about any of the Korea stuff as I wasn't really paying any attention to wrestling at that time outside of wwf
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May 22, 2021 05:13
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didn't think the episode was good. Looking forward to the rest
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May 22, 2021 05:29
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it felt like it ended really abruptly
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May 22, 2021 05:31
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I did have to explain to a friend that no one outside of a few close people knew Rikidozan was originally Zainichi Korean and it didn't come out until the 80's because he had been adopted into a Japanese family. It's a lot to cover in 45 minutes and while I'm sure Mike Chinoy is not a puro expert, Bischoff and Inoki were probably not the best people to cover it but anyone who knows anything about them should know that. Inoki did give a good rundown, he got stabbed in a bar fight and died. As noted before, Bischoff's grasp of Korean/Japanese relations is lacking. The image of Bischoff running through Pyongyang and people being terrified is kind of funny. It was after the start of the mass famine and economic collapse that started in earnest in 94 so I'm sure most people they encountered were even more on edge than they are now when interacting with tourists and anyone for that matter. It was also before they started getting Western tourists outside of some Europeans coming to teach at schools or visit.
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May 22, 2021 05:33
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:The image of Bischoff running through Pyongyang and people being terrified is kind of funny. It was after the start of the mass famine and economic collapse that started in earnest in 94 so I'm sure most people they encountered were even more on edge than they are now when interacting with tourists and anyone for that matter. It was also before they started getting Western tourists outside of some Europeans coming to teach at schools or visit.
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May 22, 2021 06:20
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JOHN CENA posted:it felt like it ended really abruptly Same feeling. I kept falling asleep towards the end, or I missed it some other way, but did it seriously skip from Scorpio sharpening a shiv to "anyways, the day of the show was crazy!" and Scorpio and Hawk never interacted again? Bischoff being the only non-North Korean ever person to jog through Pyongyang is amazing, something no one else is going to do for a long time. And I appreciate Scott Steiner's dedication to his Shoney's gig, haven't heard from him in forever.
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May 22, 2021 09:13
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I like how the last 2 episodes ended with a jab at McMahon.
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May 22, 2021 12:00
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Regarding Rikidozan specifically, and the origins of puro more broadly, I recommend this episode of Isaac Meyer’s History of Japan podcast https://historyofjapan.libsyn.com/episode-256-the-wrestler
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May 22, 2021 14:19
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King Bahamut posted:Regarding Rikidozan specifically, and the origins of puro more broadly, I recommend this episode of Isaac Meyer’s History of Japan podcast Thank you! I was looking for something like this.
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May 22, 2021 14:56
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would have prefered hack meyers podcast but ok ty
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May 22, 2021 15:02
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Warrior episode feels like the most skippable of the season. He sucks, everyone knows he sucks, and even if it's 45 minutes of dunking on him for being a racist piece of poo poo, is it really worth spending an episode on him? I dunno, maybe some wrestlers will have funny lines but it's easily the most meh episode topic for me.
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May 22, 2021 16:03
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I think the Warrior ep will be interesting as a contrast to whatever WWE does in their A&E one
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May 22, 2021 16:06
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Ganso Bomb posted:Warrior episode feels like the most skippable of the season. He sucks, everyone knows he sucks, and even if it's 45 minutes of dunking on him for being a racist piece of poo poo, is it really worth spending an episode on him? I dunno, maybe some wrestlers will have funny lines but it's easily the most meh episode topic for me. I don't think most fans know how active he was in trying to make racism a career beyond his college lectures.
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May 22, 2021 16:15
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JOHN CENA posted:would have prefered hack meyers podcast but ok ty That would be tough to get new episodes of, he died in 2015 MassRafTer posted:I don't think most fans know how active he was in trying to make racism a career beyond his college lectures. I kinda wish they'd highlight his legal "battle" with SA, but then again it'd make Lowtax look good so gently caress it
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May 22, 2021 16:47
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Grem posted:And I appreciate Scott Steiner's dedication to his Shoney's gig, haven't heard from him in forever. Unfortunately his Shoney's was a casualty of COVID
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May 22, 2021 16:50
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Ganso Bomb posted:Warrior episode feels like the most skippable of the season. He sucks, everyone knows he sucks, and even if it's 45 minutes of dunking on him for being a racist piece of poo poo, is it really worth spending an episode on him? I dunno, maybe some wrestlers will have funny lines but it's easily the most meh episode topic for me. It's maybe the most important episode of the season because it's the only thing even attempting to be a counter to WWEs white washing of his past. I'm sure the vast majority of people think he was the weirdo who said "never give up" a lot, like WWE portrays him as. Getting the truth out there to counter it is cool and good even if you and I personally know he sucks, IMHO.
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May 22, 2021 17:11
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MassRafTer posted:I don't think most fans know how active he was in trying to make racism a career beyond his college lectures. Vince MechMahon posted:It's maybe the most important episode of the season because it's the only thing even attempting to be a counter to WWEs white washing of his past. I'm sure the vast majority of people think he was the weirdo who said "never give up" a lot, like WWE portrays him as. Getting the truth out there to counter it is cool and good even if you and I personally know he sucks, IMHO. Yeah, maybe I'm just looking at it too much from the viewpoint of wrestling nerds who know all of this poo poo and not from a casual viewer standpoint. WWE already did their hit piece on him years ago with that DVD but even that was just about how he was an idiot and hard to work with, as far as I remember, but didn't dip into the other stuff.
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May 22, 2021 18:11
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Ganso Bomb posted:Yeah, maybe I'm just looking at it too much from the viewpoint of wrestling nerds who know all of this poo poo and not from a casual viewer standpoint. WWE already did their hit piece on him years ago with that DVD but even that was just about how he was an idiot and hard to work with, as far as I remember, but didn't dip into the other stuff. Yeah, you're correct, the better of the two WWE things was all about his backstage behavior and ended when he left the business. Vince almost certainly agrees that "queerin don't make the world work," so it was not mentioned.
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May 22, 2021 18:38
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This paragraph in Bix's deadspin piece is what I specifically hope there is more information on.quote:This all goes deeper than the scads of offensive posts that the man wrote on UltimateWarrior.com, which his heirs wiped from the internet. In the early to mid-2000s, Warrior sought to reinvent himself as a conservative pundit. At the time, he worked as a speaker for Young America’s Foundation, the group that co-founded CPAC with the American Conservative Union. As Mother Jones reported in 2013, YAF’s president of four decades, Ron Robinson, and board member/former executive director James B. Taylor also sat on the three-man board of America’s PAC. It was America’s PAC that, in 2004, donated $5,000 to the luridly racist and antisemitic Charles Martel Society. That was the same year that the Martel Society gave its first “Jack London Literary Prize” to Kevin MacDonald, whom the Southern Poverty Law Center describes as “the neo-Nazi movement’s favorite academic.” His speech for the Conservative Student Conference has been on youtube forever but I've never sat down to actually watch it as it is 2 hours long.
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May 22, 2021 19:08
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MassRafTer posted:This paragraph in Bix's deadspin piece is what I specifically hope there is more information on. Might actually make you have a stroke
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May 22, 2021 19:22
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Ganso Bomb posted:Yeah, maybe I'm just looking at it too much from the viewpoint of wrestling nerds who know all of this poo poo and not from a casual viewer standpoint. WWE already did their hit piece on him years ago with that DVD but even that was just about how he was an idiot and hard to work with, as far as I remember, but didn't dip into the other stuff. For starters: https://www.wrestlingnewssource.com/news/8834/Ultimate-Warriors-Ex-Wife-Writing-Tell-All-Book-Alleges-Drug-Abuse/
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May 23, 2021 00:35
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El Gallinero Gros posted:Might actually make you have a stroke I have listened to Opie's terrible solo podcast for multiple minutes so I decided I could handle this to find out if he actually talks for two hours. He doesn't! The first hour is someone else. Then the most awkward college Republican introduces Warrior, which leads to a 5 minute "highlight" reel of his career. Warrior then comes out and stumbles over his opening. Here are the highlights: https://twitter.com/mongo_ebooks/status/1396253436757348353
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May 23, 2021 00:59
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Maybe I was in a bit of a bubble but I remember my friends (even ones that didn't really follow wrestling) passing around links to his website and being like "is this the actual Ultimate Warrior??" But I would agree that the impeccable (and I assume unintentional) timing of having that ep come out right after the A&E whitewashing makes this super compelling.
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May 23, 2021 04:59
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flashy_mcflash posted:Maybe I was in a bit of a bubble but I remember my friends (even ones that didn't really follow wrestling) passing around links to his website and being like "is this the actual Ultimate Warrior??" The UConn speech blew up and got internet attention but most people didn't realize he was working directly for an extreme right wing group with ties to even more extreme right wing groups.
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May 23, 2021 05:02
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Was Warrior big into a right-wing poo poo while an active wrestler or is this something he fell into after he retired?
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May 23, 2021 05:08
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Seams posted:Was Warrior big into a right-wing poo poo while an active wrestler or is this something he fell into after he retired? He claims he had a conservative personal philosophy without realizing until the mid to late 90s when he read the great books of Western Civilization, learned about the founding fathers and met his second wife.
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May 23, 2021 05:12
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The spooky 1960's style sci-fi music was certainly a choice. I was waiting for Scott Norton to have to fight a lovely looking robot.
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May 23, 2021 05:42
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MassRafTer posted:The UConn speech blew up and got internet attention but most people didn't realize he was working directly for an extreme right wing group with ties to even more extreme right wing groups. The way I remember it is basically a screenshot of the speech that aired on CSPAN went relatively viral by the standards of the time, the moments where the UConn speech completely went off the rails ("Queering doesn't make the world work" and telling an Iranian student to "get a towel") went even more viral by the standards of the time. But it died down by the time of his DePaul speech, even though it was picked up by a decent number of gossip and wrestling news websites.
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May 23, 2021 06:05
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So did Warrior just not take with conservatives as... well whatever he was trying to do or was he way bigger in that scene than I would have realized up to him coming back for Vince's Hall of Fame?
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May 23, 2021 06:11
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TheKingslayer posted:So did Warrior just not take with conservatives as... well whatever he was trying to do or was he way bigger in that scene than I would have realized up to him coming back for Vince's Hall of Fame?
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May 23, 2021 06:34
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absolutely think Warrior knew he was gonna die and thats why he came crawling back to wwe, but its still loving surreal how the day before he died went and how people were calling it during the hall of fame speech and just coming out onto the wrestlemania stage
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May 23, 2021 06:44
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davidbix posted:I don't think anybody really knows? With different timing, he absolutely would have had a lucrative following, though. And he doesn't go back to Vince if he doesn't have financial issues. Warrior living long enough to work with current conservative groups sounds pretty disgusting so I'm glad that didn't happen. Probably would have been a staple at Trump's rallies. KungFu Grip posted:absolutely think Warrior knew he was gonna die and thats why he came crawling back to wwe, but its still loving surreal how the day before he died went and how people were calling it during the hall of fame speech and just coming out onto the wrestlemania stage I think you're right. You could tell he was unwell during his last speech even from the risers. I wouldn't have been shocked if he'd walked through the curtains and died on the spot.
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May 23, 2021 06:51
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KungFu Grip posted:absolutely think Warrior knew he was gonna die and thats why he came crawling back to wwe, but its still loving surreal how the day before he died went and how people were calling it during the hall of fame speech and just coming out onto the wrestlemania stage
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May 23, 2021 06:54
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I like Bischoff's dog  The story about Scorpio being prepared to climb out a window to get at and murder Hawk with a shank he made out of chopsticks over an argument stemming from talking poo poo about Ric Flair, and having to be talked down by Chris loving Benoit was a good reminder how much insane poo poo happens in wrestling that we kind of just take as a given.
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May 23, 2021 07:19
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Jerusalem posted:The story about Scorpio being prepared to climb out a window to get at and murder Hawk with a shank he made out of chopsticks over an argument stemming from talking poo poo about Ric Flair, and having to be talked down by Chris loving Benoit was a good reminder how much insane poo poo happens in wrestling that we kind of just take as a given. And this is ignoring the fact that all of this happened in NORTH KOREA. I can definitely believe that Scorpio got the better of the scraps with Hawk, but I do feel like he might have embellished his dominance in the fights.
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May 23, 2021 08:07
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Nobody disputes that Scorpio got the better of Hawk, but yeah, probably some embellishment there. Also this was not Hawk in his prime who would have killed him, like Norton said.
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May 23, 2021 08:40
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Would've been nice to have heard from some of the NJPW talent to hear about their experiences, but it was an entertaining episode. I honestly think the Scorpio/Hawk stuff was kind of....I dunno, pointless to put in an episode about wrestlers in North Korea. It is funny that even while in a totalitarian country wrestlers will still be on their bullshit.
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May 23, 2021 10:47
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Seams posted:Would've been nice to have heard from some of the NJPW talent to hear about their experiences, but it was an entertaining episode. I honestly think the Scorpio/Hawk stuff was kind of....I dunno, pointless to put in an episode about wrestlers in North Korea. It is funny that even while in a totalitarian country wrestlers will still be on their bullshit. I disagree on this one. It's part of the story, and if they wouldn't mention it, people would probably start to make conspiracy's that some one asked them to not brought it up.
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May 23, 2021 11:29
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Jim Cornette comments about Nick Gage’s girlfriend https://twitter.com/adam_n_yeary/status/1396294760923639811?s=21 Raise your hand if you remember how Cornette talked a while back when the hot tub allegations came out about him? Saying something along the lines of "I don't care if you mock me because I bring it on myself and have thick skin but my wife has nothing to do with it and she doesn't deserve this".
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May 23, 2021 11:30
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