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Floodixor posted:I liked Tig a lot Baraka zombie apocalypse
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May 24, 2021 23:31
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Detective No. 27 posted:Not really. There's a long tradition of people throwing "plot holes" as a criticism without elaborating on what those plot holes are. It's Cinema Sins syndrome. "Idiot characters" is a similar critique. It's the film watcher equivalent to an being armchair quarterback. The smartest character in the movie was the one guy who left team before they went to Vegas. I just wanted to express my disappointment in the movie without spending the afternoon writing up examples and defending my position. Here's one example for you though: Why stage an elaborate fake vault heist when you could just find some mercs and offer them $50 million for a super zombie's head? Instead Tanaka was relying on his one guy to double cross everybody and somehow acquire and escape with the head by himself.
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May 24, 2021 23:33
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SlimGoodbody posted:Lastly, someone brought up again that Van had a big Omega sign tattoo on his chest I think, which I somehow never noticed. I might bump this movie up a point or two if someone can convincingly make the case for how this is Snyder saying something about his time with DC. Superhuman "alien" creature, with red cape, visual symbolism intented to evoke a godlike quality about him, repeated scenes of him being "bulletproof" (the metal mask they kept showing), opposing a buff adversary with Omega theming... like, there are clearly some unusual similarities popping up here that I lack the context to place, but I'm not averse to the idea that he's got at least one coherent, consistent theme running throughout that might give me something to latch onto. I get that there are lots of other themes, as has been discussed, but they mostly feel scattershot and underbaked, to me. I thought it was pretty interesting that Van, the last survivor and one draped in Omega imagery, was the one who first recognized the individualism in the zombies. His whole motivation in joining is that he has nightmares where he sees the people he killed in Vegas, not the faceless horde we've been conditioned to think of zombies as.
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May 24, 2021 23:34
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bees everywhere posted:I just wanted to express my disappointment in the movie without spending the afternoon writing up examples and defending my position. Here's one example for you though: This one has been discussed here. I won't fault you for not wanting to read 14 pages before posting. Because capitalism. If Tanaka was transparent about his true motivation, how would be be able to ensure the mercs don't get the head and sell it to a higher bidder? It's typical bad guy poo poo to keep the amount of people who know the real goal as small as possible. Dilahunt might have safely gotten back to Tanaka if it weren't for his hubris. (The team's heist might have gone without a hitch if it weren't for him, but that's neither here nor there.) Also it's been demonstrated that the military can't do anything competently, so sending them is a no go. TLDR: Tanaka is a capitalist and got where he is by treating people as disposable.
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May 24, 2021 23:41
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McCloud posted:And it's nice that we actually have a big blockbuster film coming out as saying ICE is full of abusive fascists The last Terminator did this too. That also sucked, unfortunately, but I at least appreciate the fact that it's starting to pop up more. It's just so weird how the literal concentration camps we're operating on our southern border don't get more play in popular media, isn't it? The REAL Goobusters posted:It was surprising to me that Snyder sets up thisemale character in the opening sequence only to kill her off. Didn't see it coming That whole little arc through the opening credits is the only thing that spoke to me, in terms of character. It looked, to me, like the little girl was gonna make it--and then mom called her back, which guaranteed the kid's death by zombie/storage container. It was off-putting and tragic in a very human way. I'm surprised more people haven't talked about it, and I'm still chewing it over. SlimGoodbody posted:This is an unfair and hyperbolic response to a reasonable desire that some might have for a film's decisions to feel at least somewhat relatable as a first step for viewer buy-in. Many people in this thread have pointed out that the movie operates on dream logic as a means to rationalize the many strange things that happen, so another person noting that and saying it rubbed them the wrong way is neither an unfair nor invalid assertion. Yeah, it's pronounced to the point that you kind of have to reckon with it as a creative choice, but it's understandably not for everyone, and the frustration factor with the awful decision-making is justifiable in itself. The old "well I wouldn't have done that!!" argument isn't great--part of the viewer's job in any film is reading the characters, loving morons though they may be, as part of the work. But getting antsy because these idiots can't keep themselves alive does get old. Same thing with the little girl in the intro and with Chambers. It's painful to watch sometimes. In hindsight, this is really bringing me back to all those arguments about that loving dog in Dawn of the Dead.
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May 24, 2021 23:47
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If you hire a bunch of guys to steal a top-secret bioweapon for you, then what you now have is a bunch of guys who know you want a top-secret bioweapon. If they succeed then what you have is a bunch of guys who know you have a top-secret bioweapon. No bueno.
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May 24, 2021 23:51
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“My guy will go in with them, accomplish his mission, double cross and kill them all and walk out and present me with the head of my enemy so I can get richer” is a total Trump sending Jared in with the team of mercs.
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May 24, 2021 23:52
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Detective No. 27 posted:This one has been discussed here. I won't fault you for not wanting to read 14 pages before posting. Because capitalism. If Tanaka was transparent about his true motivation, how would be be able to ensure the mercs don't get the head and sell it to a higher bidder? It's typical bad guy poo poo to keep the amount of people who know the real goal as small as possible. Dilahunt might have safely gotten back to Tanaka if it weren't for his hubris. (The team's heist might have gone without a hitch if it weren't for him, but that's neither here nor there.) Also it's been demonstrated that the military can't do anything competently, so sending them is a no go. They knew he wanted alpha blood, there is no special reason they are going to be okay if they know the mission is looking for blood but will freak out if they know they want an alpha head.
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May 25, 2021 00:02
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2house2fly posted:If you hire a bunch of guys to steal a top-secret bioweapon for you, then what you now have is a bunch of guys who know you want a top-secret bioweapon. If they succeed then what you have is a bunch of guys who know you have a top-secret bioweapon. No bueno. Also the more people who know you have a top secret bioweapon the more likely someone gets the bright idea to sell it to someone else for more money.
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May 25, 2021 00:03
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Detective No. 27 posted:The smartest character in the movie was the one guy who left team before they went to Vegas. I totally forgot that guy, bless his heart. Another good "in a nutshell" point about everyone involved being loving stupid, and that just needing to be something to accept as part of reading the film. It's the same joke behind every subsequent character to join the crew doing so for progressively smaller payouts, right down to the ICE dude who turns up for, like, bus fare and a sandwich punch-card. This, again, is why Chamber's death makes sense: Because the only person in the crew who gave remotely a poo poo about her was Guzman, and he pretty much instantly walked it off, because he's some dipshit social media star that's ultimately only interested in money, fame, and himself. That's the characters. They absolutely could have saved her. They just decided it wasn't worth it to them to try. And now they're all dead! Here's one I haven't seen people get feisty about : Why does Zeus toss some people in an unguarded room to stew for a bit, instead of just instantly turning them? Why all the stupid ritual surrounding all of it? It makes sense that he wants more Alphas for his army, but that's a super unnecessary move. What's his motivation? What are any of the characters' motivations?
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May 25, 2021 00:04
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the point of not telling the truth is that the rest of the crew is bait to keep the zombies occupied while Martin gets the gently caress out with the helicopter. Presumably they’ve tried sending in a team of stone cold operators before, and they got loving eaten because they tried to just do a head on assault instead of sneaking in the side with assistance from a coyote who knows the rules. Furthermore: if they’d told the truth, then all it takes is one person jumping ship and posting poo poo to Facebook and suddenly the whole world knows that weaponizing zombies is an option on the table.
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May 25, 2021 00:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:They knew he wanted alpha blood, there is no special reason they are going to be okay if they know the mission is looking for blood but will freak out if they know they want an alpha head. Two people on the team know that there's a plan to get alpha blood, and one of the two is there to actually carry it out.
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May 25, 2021 00:05
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:the point of not telling the truth is that the rest of the crew is bait to keep the zombies occupied while Martin gets the gently caress out with the helicopter. Presumably they’ve tried sending in a team of stone cold operators before, and they got loving eaten because they tried to just do a head on assault instead of sneaking in the side with assistance from a coyote who knows the rules. Furthermore: if they’d told the truth, then all it takes is one person jumping ship and posting poo poo to Facebook and suddenly the whole world knows that weaponizing zombies is an option on the table. Couldn't the entire real plan be done with drones/remote controlled vehicles?
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May 25, 2021 00:07
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There's a no-fly zone over Vegas, I don't know if whatever monitoring they do for that would detect a drone but it'd make sense if it could
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May 25, 2021 00:10
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:The last Terminator did this too. That also sucked, unfortunately, but I at least appreciate the fact that it's starting to pop up more. It's just so weird how the literal concentration camps we're operating on our southern border don't get more play in popular media, isn't it? They were gaining traction for a minute but then Orange Man Bad was dealt with so it's fine to ignore it again 🙃🔫
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May 25, 2021 00:12
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:I totally forgot that guy, bless his heart. Another good "in a nutshell" point about everyone involved being loving stupid, and that just needing to be something to accept as part of reading the film. It's the same joke behind every subsequent character to join the crew doing so for progressively smaller payouts, right down to the ICE dude who turns up for, like, bus fare and a sandwich punch-card. I think the Zeus holding people before turning them is just a mystery. It's clear there is some reason, cause he's done it with others before, we just don't know what. He definitely seems to be closely examining them.
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May 25, 2021 00:13
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:the point of not telling the truth is that the rest of the crew is bait to keep the zombies occupied while Martin gets the gently caress out with the helicopter. This actually works alright for me, good point. Violator posted:“My guy will go in with them, accomplish his mission, double cross and kill them all and walk out and present me with the head of my enemy so I can get richer” is a total Trump sending Jared in with the team of mercs. Oh, oh my god, I forgot about that. I think I need to recontextualize my outlook about this to remember it is probably being made during and in response to the Trump administration's dipshit efforts at going mask-off about all the quiet parts of America that are not supposed to be said loud, and its effect on global civilization. Like, I fully memory holed that thing where Venezuela (I think?) arrested a bunch of US special forces morons who were trying to do the Kill Castro episode of King of the Hill at them.
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May 25, 2021 00:21
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"Why don't they just hire badasses to get the Alpha head?" He probably has. Think Mark think! We are expressly told that other teams have gone in and failed. The dumbest idea is probably Dillahunt's Burke character insistence that he use a helicopter to fly out, when (as far as he knew at that point) he had over 24 hours to just leave via the shipping container wall and drive out of there. That's a lot of driving! He could literally be in Canada by the time the nuke goes off for all he knows. If you want to criticize the plan, that's the actual dumb part. But not telling a bunch of mercs that you're trying to illegally obtain a doomsday bioweapon that every nation on Earth would kill millions for is actually a really good idea. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 00:27 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 00:22
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Someone brought up earlier in the thread you couldn't possibly get that much money out on the helicopter, but Snyder did mention in an interview on Justin Longs podcast they actually did the math on the weight and fuel requirements before they determined how much they would be going for. I dont think the plan was to get the entire load of cash shown in the vault out, they clearly brought a fixed number of duffle bags that would fit the $200mil.
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May 25, 2021 00:39
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Quote =/= edit
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May 25, 2021 00:39
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I think the implication of the film is supposed to be that the tiger and alpha army make traveling through the city precarious. So theoretically there's some explanation where Tanaka and Martin were at a place where they felt the only play was this elaborate con as cover to facilitate their way in and then hoping Martin can pull off a double cross and fly out. So the theoretical answer to "why not send a team in for the head?" or "why not just leave the way you came in?" is "can't get past the zombie tiger army." Hence them "having" to travel indoors and Martin getting eaten. But I think the problem is the film really doesn't establish a great sense of that danger at all. Martin and Coyote are able to go out on the streets and wrestle with some alphas. Kate is able to get her way to Olympus. And Coyote's general experiences inside and the nature of "they'll give us a pass if we give a sacrifice" and "Do you always sacrifice someone?/Sometimes" stuff is all very handwavey and unclear. So like... we're left with a bunch of half answers and people either filling in the blanks or seeing tham as plot holes based on their overall charitable level to the film. Mostly, I dunno. The more I think about the film's plot and characters the more it all just feels very sloppy to me.
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May 25, 2021 00:46
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POWELL CURES KIDS posted:I totally forgot that guy, bless his heart. Another good "in a nutshell" point about everyone involved being loving stupid, and that just needing to be something to accept as part of reading the film. It's the same joke behind every subsequent character to join the crew doing so for progressively smaller payouts, right down to the ICE dude who turns up for, like, bus fare and a sandwich punch-card. Guzman didn’t just walk it off. You can see how distressed he was and didn’t know what to do in the moment. The body guard guy is yelling to leave her in that moment. He’s in real pain after he shoots the gas tank and it’s Scott who had to pull him back into the mission.
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May 25, 2021 00:53
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John Wick of Dogs posted:I think the Zeus holding people before turning them is just a mystery. It's clear there is some reason, cause he's done it with others before, we just don't know what. He definitely seems to be closely examining them. Well, is it clear that there's a reason? He turns that dipshit ICE agent immediately. Is he just waiting for, like, "physically worthy" people to get the bite? If so, then why did he bite the Queen, since she's pretty scrawny? Just to breed? But then he did go after her head, so maybe he loved her after all. He seems to be getting some kind of sadistic pleasure out of toying with the women he's got captured. Maybe it's sexual? But we already know of at least one person who escaped from there, and it was a guy--maybe Zeus is bisexual. Or on a fasted interval diet. I'm loving around here. It's definitely a mystery, maybe there's an explanation to conjure up, maybe there isn't. The point is that nobody seems to have gotten caught up on that, even when they're getting caught up on poo poo like the crew letting Chambers die, despite there being several good explanations for that. The zombies have this weird, vaguely erotic, Cats-inspired cabaret civilization in there. They're an evil polysexual chorus line, complete with one of Siegfried and Roy's tigers. It feels like there should be poo poo to talk about. But we aren't! That's not a complaint--I don't give a poo poo about the zombies' sexual politics. This movie, as a whole, kinda sucked, and I don't feel very strongly about it either way. It's sloppy. It just makes for a decent exercise in how and why we talk about different aspects of film. Here's one, I guess: What do the zombies in this represent? Racial Other, debased mirrors of America's obsessive consumption culture, fallen Greek/Germanic myth? It's overly simplistic to say "the zombies symbolize [x]", I know. To me, the only reading that seems to work here is absurdist. They're robots, they're aliens, they're stuck in a timeloop--Snyder throws so many different types of imagery at them that they just seem to collapse as any coherent kind of symbol at all. We're reading tea leaves based on the name of the vault and some tattoo Van's actor has apparently had for years. What's up with that. edit- The REAL Goobusters posted:Guzman didn’t just walk it off. You can see how distressed he was and didn’t know what to do in the moment. The body guard guy is yelling to leave her in that moment. He’s in real pain after he shoots the gas tank and it’s Scott who had to pull him back into the mission. Sure. But next time we see him, if I recall correctly, he's straight back to being a jerk-off loudly making jokes while he shoots zombies. They can't have been that close. Maybe that's just how he copes with trauma? But "so what" either way. POWELL CURES KIDS fucked around with this message at 00:57 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 00:54
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The problem is all the zombie anthropology and society and random robot stuff is all just impossible to really do anything about expect speculate baselessly because the film just doesn't do anything with any of it. It introduces a LOT of ideas and then doesn't followup on any of it. So the answer to a question like "why did Zeus turn some people and not others?" is fairly "who knows?" The other stuff people are hung up on feel more like "plot holes" or narrative/editing mistakes or something. They're part of the bigger story so they feel like something that should have fuller answers. The other stuff just feels like fluff. Maybe you liked it, maybe it frustrated you, but its not especially important to the story.
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May 25, 2021 00:59
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Guzman didn’t just walk it off. You can see how distressed he was and didn’t know what to do in the moment. The body guard guy is yelling to leave her in that moment. He’s in real pain after he shoots the gas tank and it’s Scott who had to pull him back into the mission. Yeah. Guzman had a real deer in the headlights moment. He's wrestling with what to do and Martin's in his ear telling him it's a lost cause. There's no way he could make a clear rational decision under that pressure.
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May 25, 2021 01:00
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STAC Goat posted:I think the implication of the film is supposed to be that the tiger and alpha army make traveling through the city precarious. So theoretically there's some explanation where Tanaka and Martin were at a place where they felt the only play was this elaborate con as cover to facilitate their way in and then hoping Martin can pull off a double cross and fly out. So the theoretical answer to "why not send a team in for the head?" or "why not just leave the way you came in?" is "can't get past the zombie tiger army." Hence them "having" to travel indoors and Martin getting eaten. Martin and Coyote go out and wrestle a few lonesome zombies after luring them with gunshots, because of the truce that Coyote bought them. When Zeus finds out about what happened he rings the warhorn and orders everyone to murder the hell out of them for their crime. Kate is able to get her way to Olympus because every single zombie heard Zeus's call to action and are converging on the safe. Coyote, whose a trickster in native american myth, is constantly lying. She's not about to admit to kate that she tossed a sacrifical goat to the zombies every time she goes in. POWELL CURES KIDS posted:Well, is it clear that there's a reason? He turns that dipshit ICE agent immediately. Is he just waiting for, like, "physically worthy" people to get the bite? If so, then why did he bite the Queen, since she's pretty scrawny? Just to breed? But then he did go after her head, so maybe he loved her after all. He seems to be getting some kind of sadistic pleasure out of toying with the women he's got captured. Maybe it's sexual? But we already know of at least one person who escaped from there, and it was a guy--maybe Zeus is bisexual. Or on a fasted interval diet. I think the zombie culture is inscrutable by design. We're not supposed to know the ins and outs of how they think or how they create alphas or what the significance of their little rituals are, at least not yet. As for what they represent It's basically a sovereign kingdom with a foreign culture whose heads of states are assassinated, and then the land looted and nuked. the inhabitants are honest and tolerant of outsiders until their rules are broken. Normally I'd say that's a stand in for pretty much any land that's befallen victim of an imperialist nation, but then again their nation is cloaked in american excess and iconography of US landmarks. You got elvis zombies and the statue of liberty right there, implying that even the citizens of a colonial empire are victims to the horrible effects of capitalism. After all, the only one to come out of the whole disaster unscathed was the vulture billionaire.
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May 25, 2021 01:13
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Also LOL just realized “shadowy guy with government connections hires the best of the best extraction team to get something out of a danger zone but it turns out it’s a double cross for secret information instead and they were all expendable” is taken from Predator.
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May 25, 2021 01:15
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bees everywhere posted:I was annoyed at how Chambers died, because it seemed like the whole crew was 20 feet away with their weapons at the ready but nobody fired a shot and they just stood there watching her. Either run away or shoot the zombies, people! It was insanely dumb. The sequence preceding it was very original, though. although now that I think about it, I am legend had something like it
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May 25, 2021 01:22
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McCloud posted:Coyote, whose a trickster in native american myth, is constantly lying. She's not about to admit to kate that she tossed a sacrifical goat to the zombies every time she goes in. This interpretation is fun, but I don't think there was anything in the film to justify it.
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May 25, 2021 01:32
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McCloud posted:Martin and Coyote go out and wrestle a few lonesome zombies after luring them with gunshots, because of the truce that Coyote bought them. When Zeus finds out about what happened he rings the warhorn and orders everyone to murder the hell out of them for their crime. Kate is able to get her way to Olympus because every single zombie heard Zeus's call to action and are converging on the safe. Coyote, whose a trickster in native american myth, is constantly lying. She's not about to admit to kate that she tossed a sacrifical goat to the zombies every time she goes in. The rest I think can be explained well enough if we assume the tiger is the sentry of the city and all the scheming is to try and avoid him. That much is at least implied. But my point is we're largely told about the threat of the zombies in the street. Snyder specifically chooses to then bring any of the zombie danger indoors either for story or financial reasons. But I think that has a consequenting effect that it leaves the danger of the streets feeling nebulous. Their truce wasn't secure enough to walk te streets but was secure enough to risk the gambit at the alphas. That's not necessarily a flaw or a "plot hole" or anything but I think its a part of the tapestry that if established better wouldn't leave asking questions like "why didn't he just grab an alpha at the door" or "why didn't he just make a run for it?" My question would be if Martin's plan was to grab the head and then kill the pilot and steal the chopper why did he wait until the job was done and zombies were attacking to do that when he had like a twenty minute head start on all of them and probably could have killed Tig whenever he wanted. Albeit it that probably would have screwed him since she didn't fix the chopper until the nick of time, but he didn't know that. She had in fact told them the opposite. But mostly I just don't think the story is tight enough to start pulling at it like this. Once you get one string I think you risk unraveling a lot. But again, I think that's kind of where you just either convince your audience or you don't. Someone who enjoys the movie will go with some things that they'd otherwise pick at in another film, and people who didn't will do the opposite. McCloud posted:As for what they represent It's basically a sovereign kingdom with a foreign culture whose heads of states are assassinated, and then the land looted and nuked. the inhabitants are honest and tolerant of outsiders until their rules are broken. Normally I'd say that's a stand in for pretty much any land that's befallen victim of an imperialist nation, but then again their nation is cloaked in american excess and iconography of US landmarks. You got elvis zombies and the statue of liberty right there, implying that even the citizens of a colonial empire are victims to the horrible effects of capitalism. After all, the only one to come out of the whole disaster unscathed was the vulture billionaire. It seems worth pointing out that they only do this IF the outsiders sacrifice one of their own to either be eaten or turned against their will or God knows what. And even then our ONLY source for information on this matter is pretty sketchy about the details and doesn't fully trust the situation. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 01:58 on May 25, 2021 |
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May 25, 2021 01:52
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SlimGoodbody posted:This interpretation is fun, but I don't think there was anything in the film to justify it. She's a habitual liar. She lies and tricks everyone at some point. She tricks the zombies, she tricks martin, she tricks the Ice guy, she's clearly done some unsavoury stuff because she's seeking penance (hence her deal with martin), i think it's a reasonable inference. As for the mythological aspects, there's stuff from Greek, German and Norwegian myths, i don't see why native American should be off limits. Also another meaning for Coyote is someone smuggling in illegals across the Mexican border
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May 25, 2021 02:00
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Judakel posted:It was insanely dumb. The sequence preceding it was very original, though. although now that I think about it, I am legend had something like it Silent Hill, too
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May 25, 2021 02:06
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I hope the animated series is told from Zeus’ point of view.
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May 25, 2021 02:08
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AccountSupervisor posted:Its a brand Omari got in a frat and has nothing to do with Snyder. Its just a coincidence. Coincidence or serendipity? It’s in the film, and fairly prominent. Snyder has always been very strong on casting as characterization
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May 25, 2021 02:16
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ruddiger posted:Chambers is a hundred times better than Vasquez simply for the fact that she’s not a white woman in brown face who got the job because her white boss thought it was hilarious that she showed up to audition in brown face. poo poo yiiiiiikes I did not know this holy.lawd
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May 25, 2021 02:16
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DeimosRising posted:Coincidence or serendipity? It’s in the film, and fairly prominent. Snyder has always been very strong on casting as characterization Agreed- they digitally inserted Tig Notaro into the whole movie, they could digitally scrub out a symbol if they wanted to
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May 25, 2021 02:27
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STAC Goat posted:Ok, well the last part is an assumption. It might be "right" assumption (or its possible there is no "right" assumption because its just a question that has no written answer) but its not one I personally take to. After all Coyote is presumably presented to us as a sympathetic, relatively moral character. The person we see her betray and sacrifice is given no characterization at all except to make him evil and he's only added last minute by her (which just raises more questions). She's presented as being righteously disgusted by him and carrying guilt about Greeta and helping Martin betray and endanger the group, to the point where she ultimately sacrifices herself. So to me that character seems different from one who would constantly betray and murder people. Not to mention that if she did constantly either rope in a random ICE agent nearby or betray one of the members of the party paying her you'd think that would eventually get out and affect her reputation since it is heavily suggested many of her customers do come back. So to me that's a bit of a problem. Either the character is a ruthless killer sophisticated enough to somehow avoid consequences to this point who conveniently develops a conscience all at once upon us meeting her, or there's just a lot of unexplained details about her methods and the nature of these zombies. And the latter is pretty much an established part of the film so that's my default to go with personally. And the former just feels like bad writing of a different kind. It has been a few years since I took a world mythology class in community college but from what I remember, the Native American coyote trickster god was morally ambiguous.
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May 25, 2021 03:09
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I'm curious did this Native American Coyote thing come from the movie or production and I missed it? Because I just assumed her name was an obvious extension of the border metaphor. But this thread seems to be taking this "trickster" thing very deeply?
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May 25, 2021 03:31
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Coyote definitely a double meaning. In keeping up with the Greek mythology used in the movie, she's also been compared to Charon, the ferryman who takes newly dead souls to the world of the dead.
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May 25, 2021 03:57
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Another thing about Coyote, she's pretty wily.
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May 25, 2021 04:08
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