(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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i dream of a society where i would be guillotined as a stoner
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Jun 1, 2021 00:13
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Atrocious Joe posted:shocking twist that the poster defending the worst aspects of the New Left also refuses to defend any actually existing socialist state or movement today you're just mad because no one acknowledged brecht as being an actually serious and good answer to whatever my original serious question was
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Jun 1, 2021 00:15
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PoontifexMacksimus posted:I feel like "authenticity politics" if that's even a term, is one if the bigger hidden narratives of capitalism, especially as it ties into colonialism (including of black culture in the US) and valorization of war as an "authentic" experience/sacrifice. Has anyone written on this topic or something similar? all of the existentialist movement in philosophy focused on authenticity. it must have been the zeitgeist because I seem to remember oretega y gasset expounding on it really well. that authenticity is synonymous with self authorship and self motivation, it's beyond the pale that it's being used as lip service for nationalistic obsequious fascism
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Jun 1, 2021 00:28
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The Voice of Labor posted:the point of contention is that while awareness and education may insufficient in and of themselves to effect change, they have primacy, they must necessarily come first. the proof is simple, the only way someone who is unaware of a problem will do anything to alleviate that problem is by chance. no one will do anything about anything unless they are first aware of it. regardless of what other conditions must be present or what comes next, that is step number one. we haven't done step number one yet. the wealthy countries whose agents butcher and oppress, the average person is unaware that that's the source of their luxury, they're usually at best liminally aware that it happens at all. the bourgeoisie news doesn't report it, the schools don't teach it, no one talks about it. yeah that's why all revolutions worldwide only started after 100% of the rural and urban population was literate and aware of everything wrong their government was doing before taking an educated and valiant moral stance because of their ideals, taking down the government through conscientious public pressure there's plenty of poor and marginalized groups in the first world getting screwed directly, and you better believe they know it, attempts at resistance are always cropping up and being crushed because there's no overarching political project capable of bringing all that dissatisfaction to bear you're not bringing the light about everything the government has done wrong to the unwashed masses, pretty sure a single human brain cannot hold every hosed up thing the US has done, you gotta start from material reality as in the people whose lives are being ruined and work up from there, trying to sway public opinion will not stop the killing, never has
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Jun 1, 2021 00:40
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John Charity Spring posted:i don't think it was hypocritical of mao to want to combat the continuing destructive impact of the opium wars on china's populace Even in many industrialized capitalist countries one of the ways the working class was kept in check was via cheap booze, either in the company store or in the worst cases as literal payment in kind. There is a reason most original working class movements saw sobriety as liberatory, because for many of them their addiction was literally imposed on them by their employers.
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Jun 1, 2021 01:06
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The Voice of Labor posted:all of the existentialist movement in philosophy focused on authenticity. it must have been the zeitgeist because I seem to remember oretega y gasset expounding on it really well. Yeah, that is part of it (and Marx's alienation, obviously), and it's not surprising that existentialism develops generally in a socialist fashion, when it seeking precisely an authenticity away from the false, imposed forms of colonialism or war. I'm pretty drunk, but a slightly obscure example of what seems to me the potential scope of the import of false authenticity via colonialism: the evolution of war from the relatively limited "cabinet wars" of the 18th century to the final conflagration of 1914*: as Europe conquered the last remaining pieces of the global in more and more geocidal ways, the brutality of these wars, and the slaughter allowed by technological superiority, was filtered into Europe as the authentic and true way of war: the generation that marched up for WW1 was not ignorant of military technology: they had lived and breathed the naval arms race, they had read Kipling and Churchill's reports from the Boer War, they had read with pride how their nation's soldiers had slaughtered a hundred times their own number with modern arms against less equipped enemies; they weren't ignorant of the fact that technology had advanced since Napoleon, they were simply acting under an advanced form of false consciousness that told them that this is was real war looked like, that this form of slaughter was how nations measured themselves against each other. Essentially: European countries could accept waging (almost) genocidal wars against each other because they had desensitized by a century of genocidal war against the rest of the world. * Ignoring here the Revolutionary period and the ideologically differentiated wars - relating the French Revolution to colonialism is beyond me at the moment. Edit; looking back this paragraph is really not very good, but I will leave it as it is Related to the above, it's obvious that free peoples have been happy to imbibe many substances, but the material reality is that substances themselves are material goods, not social or spiritual goods, and thus very easy pray to capitalist control. I think one other version of false authenticity that only the Internet and breakdown of Victorian morals has allowed to fully bloom is pornography, and the falsly authentic sexual experience it allows, but there are people who have written very well on the relation between the signifier/signified etc., and I can't evoke that so I can't productively expand 
PoontifexMacksimus has issued a correction as of 01:38 on Jun 1, 2021 |
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Jun 1, 2021 01:33
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Mao’s worst crime was stamping out opium, got it.
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Jun 1, 2021 01:59
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death to hippies and also teetotaling moralists itt
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Jun 1, 2021 02:11
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PoontifexMacksimus posted:Related to the above, it's obvious that free peoples have been happy to imbibe many substances, but the material reality is that substances themselves are material goods, not social or spiritual goods, and thus very easy pray to capitalist control. ehhhhhh idk about that. a lot of "substances" have very important social and spiritual roles to different cultures and peoples
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Jun 1, 2021 03:12
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indigi posted:ehhhhhh idk about that. a lot of "substances" have very important social and spiritual roles to different cultures and peoples Oh, nono, I am not taking a stance at all challenging anyone's ritual access, or even personal desire, to use anything at all. The problem is that the social/spiritual context in which pretty much all drugs are actually designed to be used by independent populations, i.e. for building non-economical experiental social cohesion, is anathema to capitalism. But whatever substances are involved are indeed merely material components - and it's no coincidence that all the main drugs trafficed today are not the result of indigenous use, but the result of capitalist chemistry and global capitalism economics
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Jun 1, 2021 03:26
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lol tobacco alcohol weed shrooms poppies and coca were all used in prehistoric times. the way they get "on the shelf" may reek of capitalism but their use is older than dirt
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Jun 1, 2021 04:22
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indigi posted:Google EZLN, and their drug policy subcomandante galeano wrote a kick rear end kids book about bringing color back to the world and everyone getting time and freedom to enjoy themselves and make love so whatever their policy I can only assume it's very hip
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Jun 1, 2021 04:28
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The Voice of Labor posted:coincidentally, I'm sure, none is also the number of socialist movements that are active and which wield political power. Please post better
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Jun 1, 2021 04:35
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Yossarian-22 posted:death to hippies and also teetotaling moralists itt 
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Jun 1, 2021 05:14
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The Voice of Labor posted:riot ribs is immediately cointelpro'ed because if you're giving out ribs and hamburgers and other desirable food stuffs, that represents a threat.
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Jun 1, 2021 05:14
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Despite all the attempts by the Soviet Union to curb alcoholism and smoking, you could still be an antisocial piece of poo poo chain smoking alcoholic. So what is really the problem here? That you're being forbidden from engaging in vices or that a problem is being recognized at all?
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Jun 1, 2021 05:18
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Despite all the attempts by the Soviet Union to curb alcoholism and smoking, you could still be an antisocial piece of poo poo chain smoking alcoholic. So what is really the problem here? That you're being forbidden from engaging in vices or that a problem is being recognized at all? it seems the tension between "we know what's best for you" and "gently caress you dad" was never fully resolved in the soviet system
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Jun 1, 2021 05:23
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Hodgepodge posted:it seems the tension between "we know what's best for you" and "gently caress you dad" was never fully resolved in the soviet system the fatal contraction
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Jun 1, 2021 05:35
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brezhnev telling you not to smoke while chain smoking, straight double fisted, a cigarette in each hand, alternating puffs between hands like a boxer working a speed bag. at the message's climax he blows a smoke ring in the form of a sickle followed by one in the form of a hammer
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Jun 1, 2021 05:41
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Ngl i really like drugs and the anti drug posts sound deadass nerdy, although i'd definitely smoke less weed if it was only for fun instead of also trying to take the edge off my 9 to 5 and stupid boss breathing down my neck I just have no illusions about it being revolutionary, plenty of neohippie ayahuasca "shamans" who basically learn the recipe to sell to rich white bougs in search of pseudoreligious thrills, and general drug dealing violent organized crime crooks selling rich kids their mdma, coke, weed and lsd around these parts. if you wanna party and have fun its fine, everybody deserves to chill, every favela has it's stoner circle, but lmao at thinking expaanding your consciousness is gonna change the world maan Legalize coca leafs is what im saying, they're p loving good
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Jun 1, 2021 06:08
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i'd be doing my own a/b extraction the second coca leaves become legal ngl
i say swears online has issued a correction as of 06:17 on Jun 1, 2021 |
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Jun 1, 2021 06:12
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drugs are bad, no reasonable society would tolerate the abuse of them. that doesnt mean that people cant enjoy revelous substances, or that heroin and weed dont have its place, but all drugs should absolutely not be Legal
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Jun 1, 2021 06:33
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Being reflexively defensive because people recognize a problem with antisocial drug use is a liberal mindset. Go be a libertarian if you don't want people telling you what to do. I shouldn't have to qualify any of these posts by saying I smoke weed too or any of that kind of "no guys, I'm cool, really" bullshit appeals to your sensibilities. Parties ban fraternization and antisocial drug use precisely because it creates more problems when people have sex with the wrong person or get wasted when they need to be depended upon. The idea of appealing to the public with a peoples' carnival is definitely appealing, but that should be kept separate from the serious concerns of political action. I don't even really get what the problem is here. Aren't we always framing legalization of pot in terms that explicitly recognize what a plague on society alcoholism and opioid abuse are? Why should we just assume that a socialist society would have an uncontrolled culture of vice? Again, that's a libertarian sensibility.
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Jun 1, 2021 06:35
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Stairmaster posted:Lmao did people actually believe that Believe what?
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Jun 1, 2021 06:48
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The idea of appealing to the public with a peoples' carnival is definitely appealing, but that should be kept separate from the serious concerns of political action. this is a pretty quick turnaround back to CHAZ, as it did try to present itself as a people's carnival in most aspects
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Jun 1, 2021 06:49
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having finished Parenti's book on Julius Caesar (which I reiterate is excellent) last week, I've now started on Ernest Mandel's "Formation of the Economic Thought of Karl Marx" it's a very fun read. Here's an excerpt from his chapter on Marx's relationship and evolution with the Labor Theory of Value      (with apologies if the highlighting sucks - it's no better on the other two color schemes Scribd gives you)
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Jun 1, 2021 07:14
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Victory Position posted:this is a pretty quick turnaround back to CHAZ, as it did try to present itself as a people's carnival in most aspects The Party needs to be territorialized, but you can't territorialize a party.
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Jun 1, 2021 07:15
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Being reflexively defensive because people recognize a problem with antisocial drug use is a liberal mindset. Go be a libertarian if you don't want people telling you what to do. I shouldn't have to qualify any of these posts by saying I smoke weed too or any of that kind of "no guys, I'm cool, really" bullshit appeals to your sensibilities. Parties ban fraternization and antisocial drug use precisely because it creates more problems when people have sex with the wrong person or get wasted when they need to be depended upon. The idea of appealing to the public with a peoples' carnival is definitely appealing, but that should be kept separate from the serious concerns of political action. antisocial drug use is a public health issue tangled with mental healthcare and should be treated as such, addictive and debilitating drugs such as opioids cocaine and meth should absolutely be destroyed mao-style, but where the gently caress did you get the idea that communist parties ban fraternization? every leftist congress i attended had parties after the days work was done, the communist party people went wild like everyone else, the only thing the organizations made sure was that it was structured and didn't interfere with whatever serious thing was being done i'm not telling you i smoke weed to seem cool or fit in or whatever, i'm telling the truth, you on the other hand seem to have some idealization of communist iron men who don't party or have sex with one another, ofc nobody's going on benders during wartime but that's not the way things are most of the time sounds like libertarian advocacy for an uncontrolled culture of vice to you?
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Jun 1, 2021 07:27
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people's dark carnival
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Jun 1, 2021 07:28
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bagual posted:antisocial drug use is a public health issue tangled with mental healthcare and should be treated as such, addictive and debilitating drugs such as opioids cocaine and meth should absolutely be destroyed mao-style, but where the gently caress did you get the idea that communist parties ban fraternization? every leftist congress i attended had parties after the days work was done, the communist party people went wild like everyone else, the only thing the organizations made sure was that it was structured and didn't interfere with whatever serious thing was being done I don't think it's any of that and just a reminder to discipline it's one of the greater overarching problems today
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Jun 1, 2021 07:39
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Didn't read any of the posts itt, smoked weed instead.
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Jun 1, 2021 07:39
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Jun 1, 2021 07:47
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people loving between the ranks of organisations have been the source of a huge amount of organisational stress and a serious socialist party should absolutely have rules against it because it inevitably ends up with someone important abusing their position for sex such as in the comrade delta affair in the SWP in britain obviously people are going to meet and occasionally hook up within a political, but there needs to be a clear understanding that this is at the very least Frowned Upon if one party is senior to the other. some movements (such as the PKK with affiliates) outright enforce celibacy among their cadres for this sort of reason. a principled position of free drugs is not a socialist position; in the case of the US, weed legalisation seems like a good move to remove an excuse from the police to arbitrarily harass whoever they want, but this has very little to do with the substance itself (other than it not being that dangerous à la heroin etc) whether a ban is productive policy depends a lot on the specific factors at play: imo banning alcohol, for example, isn't likely to even work and is probably just going to lead to people brewing their own as happened when forces including the labour movement actually did try that. i can see no reason why especially dangerous substances such as krokodil should ever be legal.
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Jun 1, 2021 07:56
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tokin opposition posted:Didn't read any of the posts itt, smoked weed instead.
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Jun 1, 2021 08:01
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tokin opposition posted:Didn't read any of the posts itt, smoked weed instead. you are the pockmarked face of the failure of the left in the United States, successfully dismantled for the 20th time, this time by a sticky, clinking handful of 510 carts and $40 ounces of high-potency shake.
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Jun 1, 2021 08:13
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bagual posted:antisocial drug use is a public health issue tangled with mental healthcare and should be treated as such, addictive and debilitating drugs such as opioids cocaine and meth should absolutely be destroyed mao-style, but where the gently caress did you get the idea that communist parties ban fraternization? every leftist congress i attended had parties after the days work was done, the communist party people went wild like everyone else, the only thing the organizations made sure was that it was structured and didn't interfere with whatever serious thing was being done I'm not replying to you, I'm agreeing with you. When Americans talk about bans on "fraternization" we're referring to frowning on sexual affairs between organization members, not social events and parties. Organizations already have enough problems with internal politics without also throwing in relationship drama to the mix. And like what's already been pointed out, there's too much of a danger of sexual abuse in hierarchies when you're not frowning on sex between members. We've had multiple organizations get rocked by sex abuse scandals where the party has covered up for high ranking members or important spokespeople.
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Jun 1, 2021 08:15
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Conversely, where the ruling apparatchik are, in fact, also a polycule,
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Jun 1, 2021 08:17
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Victory Position posted:Conversely, where the ruling apparatchik are, in fact, also a polycule, Which happens more than people would like to think.
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Jun 1, 2021 08:19
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As a point of comparison, my understanding of historical monastic Buddhism includes plenty of cases where male and female monks worked and practiced together. If a couple fell in love, it was understood that it was fine, you just went into the lay community as ordinary people (but with social support and a good rep from having been monks). Both sexual relationships and children aren't really compatible with a monastic lifestyle, but they aren't bad things, the monastery is part of a wider community in these cases.
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Jun 1, 2021 08:33
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oh i see, yeah power imbalance in sexual situations is bad and should be frowned upon, i'm just insomniac and boxing shadows organizations should be prepared to replace high ranks if someone turns out to be a mod or a cop, hell knows even the successful revolutionary parties had their fair share of leadership circular firing squads Victory Position posted:Conversely, where the ruling apparatchik are, in fact, also a polycule, lol wtf
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Jun 1, 2021 08:47
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