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KingKalamari posted:It's honestly amazing just how decentralized the population was prior to the industrial revolution, it's something I still have a hard time wrapping my head around. And before modern sanitation a lot of cities are really awful places to live. Not that even ancient cities couldn't necessarily have good and hygienic infrastructure, but a lot don't, especially ones that blow up in population bigger than the local government cares to keep up with infrastructure. I read somewhere it's theorised Rome had net negative population growth, between disease, fires and general unhealthy lifestyles, but bouyed up by immigration.
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Jun 5, 2021 06:19
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Ghost Leviathan posted:And before modern sanitation a lot of cities are really awful places to live. Not that even ancient cities couldn't necessarily have good and hygienic infrastructure, but a lot don't, especially ones that blow up in population bigger than the local government cares to keep up with infrastructure. I read somewhere it's theorised Rome had net negative population growth, between disease, fires and general unhealthy lifestyles, but bouyed up by immigration. Oh definitely. The fact that humans and animals lived in such close proximity probably made good sanitation that much more of a struggle even in cities that could afford proper infrastructure: I used to work in Toronto down by Exhibition Place where they sometimes had horse-drawn carriages and mounted police on the streets and the amount of poop even that small number of horses left lying around was astounding, never mind how much waste would be produced when horses were our primary means of transportation.
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Jun 5, 2021 06:27
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Ghost Leviathan posted:And before modern sanitation a lot of cities are really awful places to live. Not that even ancient cities couldn't necessarily have good and hygienic infrastructure, but a lot don't, especially ones that blow up in population bigger than the local government cares to keep up with infrastructure. I read somewhere it's theorised Rome had net negative population growth, between disease, fires and general unhealthy lifestyles, but bouyed up by immigration. Magic is a good hand wave for this stuff in d&d type games as other people have pointed out. You have clerics and paladins who can cleanse disease or even summon food. Casters that can summon fire, wind, or water to dispose of refuse, and giant sewer systems that would be out of place in most 19th century cities. Which kinda goes back to something I'm glad is mostly dead in fantasy games now: pretending the game is analogous to what the author or GM thinks medieval Europe was like. So no women can't be warriors, "those people" aren't here, and no there's no firearms or tech -meanwhile of course sanitation, 3+ story buildings and the number 0 don't ruffle their verisimilitude at all.
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Jun 5, 2021 06:39
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KingKalamari posted:Oh definitely. The fact that humans and animals lived in such close proximity probably made good sanitation that much more of a struggle even in cities that could afford proper infrastructure: I used to work in Toronto down by Exhibition Place where they sometimes had horse-drawn carriages and mounted police on the streets and the amount of poop even that small number of horses left lying around was astounding, never mind how much waste would be produced when horses were our primary means of transportation. On the other hand: my wife and I have been mainlining the entire 20 seasons of Time Team, the british TV show with actual real life archaeologists (and charismatic presenter Tony Robinson, whom Americans may recognize as the actor who played Baldrick in Blackadder) do real actual archaeological digs, albeit at breakneck speed. (Late, great) archaeologist Mick Aston once explained to Tony that there's a ton of myths about how filthy and horrible typical English medieval towns and cities were, but that's a myth based on supposition: after the Romans withdrew, obviously there were no more aqueducts and sophisticated sewers (except there were precious few of the latter and none of the former in England anyway) so it must have been awful. Right? Except that's not what the archaeological evidence shows. Medieval towns must have certainly smelled a bit: but it rained a lot, and people had been and continued to use ditches and water control for literally millenia in the british isles, and they also seem to have spent considerable effort on an individual basis clearing up their own trash and waste. People didn't just dump buckets of poo poo into the street in front of their houses, basically: for one thing, piss and poo poo were both industrial inputs to the leather tanning industry and were often collected by professionals for that use, but otherwise it's probable that people dug latrines or hauled away waste or both as a matter of course. Horse manure is much less bad than human waste, but still worth something as fertilizer, and worth removing regularly before it buries you. Now, this is specifically about British medieval towns, and so it'd be unfair to extrapolate it to a universal statement about preindustrial towns globally; but generally people do seem to have taken pride in their communities and done their best to keep them clean, by whatever means they had available. Over the course of centuries, towns and cities worked out their waterflow issues in all expected weather, and did something about the excrement; if they somehow failed to for centuries, it would have accumulated to the point of literally burying their homes in poo poo.
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Jun 5, 2021 07:13
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Time Team was loving fantastic and I miss it so, so much.
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Jun 5, 2021 07:15
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Plutonis posted:Wait, does the Warhammer Fantasy map also have the New World on it? Yes. The North American analogue is occupied by a breakaway faction who refuse to acknowledge royalty. They built an empire on the backs of slaves, and war forever with the rest of the world at the whims of their top 1%. Unrealistic standards of beauty cause many women here to pursue outrageous amounts of knifework.
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Jun 5, 2021 07:23
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Hi Trad Games, I was looking up versions of "This War of Mine" to use for an Ethics unit with my high schoolers and saw there was a tabletop version, which got me to thinking that going a physical game might be easier, cheaper, and maybe even better, likely having more opportunity for "multiplayer". Basically, I'll be teaching an ethics unit to Year 9 and 10 students and wanted to give them some opportunities to apply and reflect on some of the theories we look at and choices that they make. Criteria I'd be looking for in a game:
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Jun 5, 2021 08:44
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KingKalamari posted:Oh definitely. The fact that humans and animals lived in such close proximity probably made good sanitation that much more of a struggle even in cities that could afford proper infrastructure: I used to work in Toronto down by Exhibition Place where they sometimes had horse-drawn carriages and mounted police on the streets and the amount of poop even that small number of horses left lying around was astounding, never mind how much waste would be produced when horses were our primary means of transportation. I heard somewhere, possibly on these forums, that the old 'slipping on a banana peel' gag was a censor-friendly version of the much more common slipping in horse poo poo. Coolness Averted posted:Magic is a good hand wave for this stuff in d&d type games as other people have pointed out. You have clerics and paladins who can cleanse disease or even summon food. That has been refreshing, though it raises other questions as to how common that magical stuff is, and also other things. Standards of cleanliness likely can be a cultural thing too, one where it's typically the Europeans who are filthy poo poo-ridden plague bearers who think baths are the devil's work and are suspicious of healthy, clean foreigners who insist on bathing almost daily and practice actual medicine. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Jun 5, 2021 |
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Jun 5, 2021 09:06
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KingKalamari posted:See, this is what I'm talking about : I've made some incredibly mild criticism about an entirely subjective aspect of a campaign setting (The believability of population demographics) and you're presenting this like I'm some kind of elfgame scientist being paid off by the tobacco industry to falsify research papers. What happened is you cited information that was incorrect, Arivia - a person who knows the subject matter intimately, is passionate about it, and was willing to put in the effort to verify their information - corrected you, you immediately denigrated their efforts and started making personal attacks and throwing around "elfgames" to make their caring about the subject seem worthy of ridicule. This happens all the time when Arivia makes loreposts on FR, and it sucks. You owe them an apology, but this is the internet so that's unlikely to happen. I've said my piece, so I'm going to drop this now so that Leperflesh doesn't have to come in and break up our taking potshots at each other. Instead, since mapchat is a thing, have 40,000 premodern digitized maps from 1500 to 1824.
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Jun 5, 2021 09:33
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Coolness Averted posted:3+ story buildings The residential buildings that most Romans lived in were five or six stories.
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Jun 5, 2021 11:26
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What projection do these maps use I wonder
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Jun 5, 2021 11:34
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I heard somewhere, possibly on these forums, that the old 'slipping on a banana peel' gag was a censor-friendly version of the much more common slipping in horse poo poo. The dirty medieval Europeans are a myth.
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Jun 5, 2021 11:35
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Charlz Guybon posted:The dirty medieval Europeans are a myth. Wasn't it the Renaissance, post-plague where hygiene standards plummeted since everyone who bathed got sick? I do know that conditions aboard ships at sea were horrific.
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Jun 5, 2021 12:14
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Nuns with Guns posted:I'm suspecting it's going to be d6-based, too, like BNW was. And premade hero "classes" would certainly be a way to keep a superhero game "simple" like it's pitching. I'm not expecting it to be 1:1 the same system but that seems like the kind of mindset a guy who made an attempt at a streamlined superhero RPG before would go with. A friend and I were talking the other day and we're positive there's a fascinating oral history of the MHR game line out there nobody is probably allowed to say. From being forced to do Civil War as the first supplement with a side of also essentially making a re-release of the core book except Civil War, on top of that what broadly sound like shenanigans on Marvel's end (including they maybe didn't want an RPG in the first place) which include pricing the license so high that even though the books were successful they weren't, you know, successful.
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Jun 5, 2021 13:32
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Charlz Guybon posted:The dirty medieval Europeans are a myth. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/native-intelligence-109314481/ The Smithsonian Institute posted:Europeans, Indians told other Indians, were physically weak, sexually untrustworthy, atrociously ugly and just plain smelly. (The British and French, many of whom had not taken a bath in their entire lives, were amazed by the Indian interest in personal hygiene.) A Jesuit reported that the “savages” were disgusted by handkerchiefs: “They say, we place what is unclean in a fine white piece of linen, and put it away in our pockets as something very precious, while they throw it upon the ground.” https://www.history.com/news/american-colonists-pilgrims-puritans-bathing History.com posted:“Bathing as you and I know it was very, very uncommon [among western Europeans] until the later part of the 18th century,” says W. Peter Ward, a professor emeritus of history at the University of British Columbia and author of the new book The Clean Body: A Modern History.
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Jun 5, 2021 13:35
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Ethics_Gradient posted:Hi Trad Games, Quoting this for attention
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Jun 5, 2021 13:37
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Coolness Averted posted:Magic is a good hand wave for this stuff in d&d type games as other people have pointed out. You have clerics and paladins who can cleanse disease or even summon food.  THEY DIDN'T HAVE THOSE IN EUROPE BACK THEN!!! Saying "they didn't have cure light wounds or scorching ray either" or "yeah well guess what, this game isn't set in Europe so go gently caress yourself" does nothing to sway them. It's amazing what pointless minutia people will latch onto and throw tantrums over.
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Jun 5, 2021 15:02
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Coolness Averted posted:Which kinda goes back to something I'm glad is mostly dead in fantasy games now: pretending the game is analogous to what the author or GM thinks medieval Europe was like. So no women can't be warriors, "those people" aren't here, and no there's no firearms or tech -meanwhile of course sanitation, 3+ story buildings and the number 0 don't ruffle their verisimilitude at all. There's still a contingent of that attitude floating around in the fantasy fiction scene: I've seen a notable segment of people expressing that attitude in the fandoms for Game of Thrones and The Witcher. It's an especially frustrating sentiment because, outside of it being used as a justification for sexism or racism, is that (like you said) these people's idea of what the Middle Ages were like comes primarily from media depictions rather than actual research or academic information. Game of Thrones tends to be sort of at the forefront for these types of people, probably because GRRM presents his work as being more authentic to the medieval experience Kestral posted:What happened is you cited information that was incorrect, Arivia - a person who knows the subject matter intimately, is passionate about it, and was willing to put in the effort to verify their information - corrected you, you immediately denigrated their efforts and started making personal attacks and throwing around "elfgames" to make their caring about the subject seem worthy of ridicule. This happens all the time when Arivia makes loreposts on FR, and it sucks. You owe them an apology, but this is the internet so that's unlikely to happen. I don't feel like I need to apologize for getting miffed at someone making an incredibly condescending "WELL ACKSHULLY..." reply to an offhanded statement I made. If this happens all the time when Arivia makes FR loreposts, maybe there's a problem with the way they're presenting this information in conversations that other people are finding off-putting. This is all I will say on the matter as I have been consciously trying to drop the subject for awhile now.
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Jun 5, 2021 15:13
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Ethics_Gradient posted:Hi Trad Games, Oh this is good, it's a tricky one because of the cost though. A heavily scripted roleplay scenario might be the best bet, since that will have few physical components. Ghost Leviathan posted:Wasn't it the Renaissance, post-plague where hygiene standards plummeted since everyone who bathed got sick? I'm not familiar with people stopping bathing in the Renaissance but plagues were massively more common during the Renaissance, which is usually attributed to the increasingly complex logistics networks making it much easier for plagues to spread. That plus the increase in crazy loving wars caused life expectancies to plummet (30 to 18 in Italy IIRC). Splicer posted:What projection do these maps use I wonder The simple knowledge that Glorantha is a cube makes me willing to accept a lot of nonsense from other fantasy maps. Imagined posted:https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/native-intelligence-109314481/ Ward is a modern historian, not a medieval historian. Bathing with soap and water was very common in the medieval era; soap was invented in the 700s in the middle east and Europeans started their own manufacturing by the early 800s (the castile soap recipes are still recognizably similar to modern soap). Some ultra-holy people aiming for sainthood might forgo bathing but that was part and parcel of them doing all sorts of weird crap to stand out from the masses (like waking up every 2 hours to pray or locking themselves in a room so small they couldn't lay down). Magninius Mediolanesis and Hildegard of Bingen even published full skincare regimes. The estimate I've seen is that most peasants would do some sort of washing every day and then go to a communal (paid) bathhouse once a week, since getting a good naked soak in was a major social activity. And these bathhouses were common enough that there were Bathhouse Keepers' guilds to internally regulate standards and represent their interests to the local government. This shouldn't give anybody the impression that medieval peasants were an exceptionally good-smelling group, we're still talking about agricultural workers, often using manure for fertilizer, who had very few changes of clothing. This last part is kind of an outstanding issue: making one set of clothes for 6 people is like 2700 hours of labor (almost entirely spinning). You'll probably have several people contributing but at the same time you probably want more than one per year given that manual labor will wear through your clothes at a good clip.
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Jun 5, 2021 15:18
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Imagined posted:https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/native-intelligence-109314481/ Just because you can find a few articles parroting old myths doesn't mean they're right. https://www.historyextra.com/period...s-plague-covid/ https://aeon.co/essays/medieval-people-were-surprisingly-clean-apart-from-the-clergy
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Jun 5, 2021 15:19
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Tulip posted:The simple knowledge that Glorantha is a cube makes me willing to accept a lot of nonsense from other fantasy maps.
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Jun 5, 2021 15:26
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My understanding was that people in the Middle Ages proper (That is from the 400-1300s AD) were actually reasonably good about personal hygiene (A practice carried forward from the bathing-obsessed Roman Empire) and it was only after the Black Death swept through Europe in the mid 1300s that folks started to eschew things like bathhouses and other forms of public bathing (Which, oddly, was probably a good idea in a pandemic situation), with the infrastructure for home bathing just not being a proper substitute at the time. Though in general I think anyone from a pre-1950s period would probably seem pretty stinky to our modern sensibilities as they wouldn't have had widespread access to things like deodorant or running water for pre-20th century people.
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Jun 5, 2021 15:29
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Ethics_Gradient posted:Hi Trad Games, The Quiet Year might be an interesting game to play for educational purposes? It has the advantage of being a game that only needs a regular pack of 52 playing cards and some normal d6s. You can buy a special pack of cards that comes pre-labeled for the game and some tokens and dice, but that's not mandatory. You can get any other sheets or components in a print and play format and make some tokens on your 3D printer. Dawgstar posted:A friend and I were talking the other day and we're positive there's a fascinating oral history of the MHR game line out there nobody is probably allowed to say. From being forced to do Civil War as the first supplement with a side of also essentially making a re-release of the core book except Civil War, on top of that what broadly sound like shenanigans on Marvel's end (including they maybe didn't want an RPG in the first place) which include pricing the license so high that even though the books were successful they weren't, you know, successful. The scuttlebutt that I remember was that the agreements around MHR were set in place and then there was some change in management who, as you said, thought the whole thing was dumb on some level and worked to fight and undermine it at every turn up until they could finally pull the rug out before they'd even finished publishing all the planned books in the line.
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Jun 5, 2021 15:29
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Splicer posted:That owns. What How does gravity work when you get to the edges? is it "realistic" (as you progress outward it starts feeling more and more like uphill) or do you just step over the edge and immediately reorient? As I understand it's a giant cube of stone floating (don't ask me how) in a vast seemingly bottomless ocean, with one "face" of the cube on the surface with all the continents and shallower seas on it. Gravity just sorta points "down" disregarding distribution of mass. It's a very mythic sort of setting. 
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Jun 5, 2021 15:34
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Splicer posted:That owns. What How does gravity work when you get to the edges? is it "realistic" (as you progress outward it starts feeling more and more like uphill) or do you just step over the edge and immediately reorient? Rivers in Glorantha flow uphill from the ocean, because the reason rivers exist at all is because the sea gods were trying to kill the sky gods in the ancient past. This is why the sky is blue: it used to be gold, because the sun, but the invasion of the sea into the sky was such a failure that the sky is now permanently stained with their blood. Glorantha is an explicitly anti-realistic setting.
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Jun 5, 2021 15:43
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Asterite34 posted:As I understand it's a giant cube of stone floating (don't ask me how) in a vast seemingly bottomless ocean, with one "face" of the cube on the surface with all the continents and shallower seas on it. Gravity just sorta points "down" disregarding distribution of mass. Is there, like, an in-lore explanation for why it's a cube specifically? Or is that seen as one of those obviously self-evident questions like "Why is the ocean near the shore?"?
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Jun 5, 2021 15:45
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Asterite34 posted:As I understand it's a giant cube of stone floating (don't ask me how) in a vast seemingly bottomless ocean, with one "face" of the cube on the surface with all the continents and shallower seas on it. Gravity just sorta points "down" disregarding distribution of mass. Tulip posted:Rivers in Glorantha flow uphill from the ocean, because the reason rivers exist at all is because the sea gods were trying to kill the sky gods in the ancient past. This is why the sky is blue: it used to be gold, because the sun, but the invasion of the sea into the sky was such a failure that the sky is now permanently stained with their blood.
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Jun 5, 2021 16:10
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KingKalamari posted:Is there, like, an in-lore explanation for why it's a cube specifically? Or is that seen as one of those obviously self-evident questions like "Why is the ocean near the shore?"? It's actually a square, if you try to look underneath it you see the Underworld, transcend, and then get eaten by a troll that died before you were born.
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Jun 5, 2021 17:02
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KingKalamari posted:I don't feel like I need to apologize for getting miffed at someone making an incredibly condescending "WELL ACKSHULLY..." reply to an offhanded statement I made. If this happens all the time when Arivia makes FR loreposts, maybe there's a problem with the way they're presenting this information in conversations that other people are finding off-putting. This is all I will say on the matter as I have been consciously trying to drop the subject for awhile now. I didn’t say “Well actually” or anything of the sort. I read your post and went “hmm, that feels wrong to me” and busted out a bunch of maps and books to verify what felt off. I posted my findings in a clearly stated manner to add to the discussion. Then you lost your poo poo about being corrected. Don’t blame me for whatever you read into what was a positive contribution to the discussion. My presentation was fine, you got your back up for some reason and I don’t know why, nor am I responsible for it. I’ve been trying to let this go, but I refuse to let you paint me as an aggressor when I was trying to help you in a very neutral, approachable tone.
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Jun 5, 2021 17:14
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How robust does an RPG story - whether prepared in advance or group improvised - have to be to plot holes? They catch me every time. And while it’s ok to say that Indiana Jones never achieved anything but it’s a good film anyway, it’s a different matter when a PC could go up to Indy and point it out to his face and then we have to work out how he reacts.
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Jun 5, 2021 17:17
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It depends heavily on the RPG, genre, expectations of the group, etc. In my current Star Trek RPG I have resolved several plot holes by saying "This is a Star Trek RPG".
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Jun 5, 2021 17:32
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Glorantha is a cube of earth floating in an infinite ocean because the Earth Rune looks like this: Here is a visualization of the cube in the water (along with the sky, air, and underworld darkness realms):  The way I always describe Glorantha is that it's a world where everything actually operates according to old Bronze Age superstitions. - Diseases are caused by evil spirits. If someone gets really sick, medicine or healing magic won't cure them - you'll have to find an exorcist or shaman and have them literally battle the spirit (using the spirit combat rules) to drive it off. - The sun rises from the gates of dawn in the east, travels across the sky during the day, and then passes through the gates of dusk in the west on its way to spending the night in the underworld. You can. If you travel far enough the the east or west you can actually see those gates, which are an excellent way to pass in the underworld (without, y'know, dying) - so long as you can defeat the very powerful guardians protecting them. - That mountain range that looks kind of like a giant sleeping on his side almost certainly was a giant who fell asleep on his side during the God Times and for some reason never woke up. Maybe there's a way to wake it up, wouldn't that be interesting? - As mentioned above, the sky is blue because during the God Time the sea gods went to war against the sun god and invaded the sky. They lost, but the surge of waters into the Sky Dome permanently changed its color from gold to blue. etc. etc. Glorantha is great.
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Jun 5, 2021 18:52
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One thing I had to learn as a GM is that it's totally ok to admit that you need a second to recalibrate or come up with what happens next. It's easy to put a silly amount of pressure on yourself to never be caught flat-footed, to always know what happens next. Nah. Give yourself permission to say, "Ooh let's take a smoke break here while I think about where we're going."
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Jun 5, 2021 19:01
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Nuns with Guns posted:The Quiet Year might be an interesting game to play for educational purposes? It has the advantage of being a game that only needs a regular pack of 52 playing cards and some normal d6s. You can buy a special pack of cards that comes pre-labeled for the game and some tokens and dice, but that's not mandatory. You can get any other sheets or components in a print and play format and make some tokens on your 3D printer. I'd second the use of The Quiet Year, especially with custom prompts/etc for the specific project. Works for larger groups than the average RPG and in shorter run-times, set up in a manner conducive to students who may not be 100% engaged, and also happens to be a good game.
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Jun 5, 2021 19:11
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Imagined posted:One thing I had to learn as a GM is that it's totally ok to admit that you need a second to recalibrate or come up with what happens next. It's easy to put a silly amount of pressure on yourself to never be caught flat-footed, to always know what happens next. Nah. Give yourself permission to say, "Ooh let's take a smoke break here while I think about where we're going." It's also okay to be like "yes, that is a plot hole and I am just one person who made this up by myself, please ignore it and just play along." (if it's something like why didn't the guards see the murderer, this wouldn't be great for saying no to player actions)
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Jun 5, 2021 19:13
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I think you guys worked it out more or less but if we could not snipe at each other over technical discussions about the details and/or flaws on the maps of fantasy settings, that'd be great, thanks.
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Jun 5, 2021 19:40
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Imagined posted:One thing I had to learn as a GM is that it's totally ok to admit that you need a second to recalibrate or come up with what happens next. It's easy to put a silly amount of pressure on yourself to never be caught flat-footed, to always know what happens next. Nah. Give yourself permission to say, "Ooh let's take a smoke break here while I think about where we're going."
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Jun 5, 2021 19:50
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Yawgmoth posted:And also that it's totally okay to say "we're gonna need to call this session early because you guys just lit all my notes on fire" once in a while too. Which seems fine if it’s unexpected but what if the first you realise about it is when someone says it to Indy?
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Jun 5, 2021 19:52
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hyphz posted:Which seems fine if it’s unexpected but what if the first you realise about it is when someone says it to Indy? Ask as an aside what they're aiming for as a player. They might just be making an innocent aside joke they don't wanna derail the game with, or they might want this to be a big ongoing plot detail like "no, our party is a bigger deal than Indy and I want him to be an ongoing rival." Hell they might even have no idea they stumbled on a 'plot hole' and assumed they were following your breadcrumbs. Just like it's okay to say "wow, I didn't plan for how things have gone down, can we pause here? " it's also okay to ask the players what they want out of a story or where they're steering stuff. Hell you can even ask them to fill in details you hadn't thought of. Like, "Okay, why hasn't anything Indy done actually resulted in change?" You don't have to have the entire world simulated and mapped before you sit down with a group.
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Jun 5, 2021 20:54
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Haystack posted:It's actually a square, if you try to look underneath it you see the Underworld, transcend, and then get eaten by a troll that died before you were born. Of course for a Troll the surface world is their Underworld from my recollection(admittedly my Glorantha lore is a touch rusty)
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Jun 6, 2021 00:15
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