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Rhaka posted:
Did Warren copy this off South Park
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Jun 6, 2021 11:43
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I think Supergod 5 came out like a month after that episode actually so it's possible.
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Jun 6, 2021 13:57
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Rohan Kishibe posted:I think Supergod 5 came out like a month after that episode actually so it's possible. I thought there was a 6 month lead time on periodical publications?
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Jun 6, 2021 15:47
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Victis posted:I mean if Jaggs is right no pact of demiurges has ever stopped him so I still don't know why this will be any different Here's the question: has any pact of demiurges even tried to stop him and not previously gotten taken out in a series of boss fights by non-allison heirs? "0 out of 0" would still be correct that no pact of demiurges has stopped him but isn't really meaningful.
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Jun 6, 2021 16:49
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Thundarr posted:If Jag can't vaporize one regular Gog, what is he going to do about an entire skybox made out of Gogs? Legion's usually a pretty easy boss tbh
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Jun 6, 2021 17:34
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Brought To You By posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgQ_QHp9WYs god this was so appropriate for the eclipse GOD the eclipse is such a standout moment across all of manga  indeed
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Jun 6, 2021 18:09
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reignonyourparade posted:Here's the question: has any pact of demiurges even tried to stop him and not previously gotten taken out in a series of boss fights by non-allison heirs? "0 out of 0" would still be correct that no pact of demiurges has stopped him but isn't really meaningful. I think the difference between Allison and the previous heirs is that she didn't strike the demiurges down when she encountered them in their dens of iniquity. Here's how I think the previous iterations went: 1. Heir meets Mottom and Mottom shows her buttfruit tree. Heir decries Mottom's vampirism and spits her on the 40cubit spear and takes her power. 2. Heir infiltrates Yre and when the old dragon prostrates itself doesn't hold back. That's the end of another Demiurges, and #1s wrath isn't enough to stop him. 3. Heir decides not to put up with Incubus's obvious moustache twirling and mind kills him when Incubus let's his guard down. 4. Bolstered by his previous 3 victories over other Demiurges, and given a year to train and develop his power, the heir wins the tournament and outright kills Solomon David. 5. Jagganoth shows up. No one invokes the 7 part pact. Game over, try again next turn of the wheel. A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 18:46
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Barring a hard right turn in the writing somewhere up ahead, we're likely in the esoterically-hard-to-reach True Ending route, while Jagganoth is treating it like that weird offshoot ending that gets you most of the way and contains some Big Revelations that can't be found on any other path in the visual novel, but still is ultimately a Bad Ending.
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Jun 6, 2021 19:05
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why does Zoss place special emphasis on Allison's atitude toward her companions in the Fortress of Yre? Jagganoth mentions that the cyclical heir does normally rally a band of companions, so why is being companionable special? If Zoss has more attempts than there are drops of water in the sea, why is any particular attempt unique? is there any deep significance in Zoss changing from urging Alice to KILL THE BEAST, TAKE THEIR HEADS to shaking his head at slaying the dragon? Besides Zoss presumably favouring an ascetic buddhahood-through-denial-of-self rather than wanton excess
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Jun 6, 2021 19:40
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Gotta keep track of the temporal logistics. Stable time loops are key, If you make mistakes dead Heirs start piling up, and dead Heirs are the metaphorical enemy. Don't be the sword holding guy who's about to add one to the pile.
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Jun 6, 2021 19:46
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ronya posted:why does Zoss place special emphasis on Allison's atitude toward her companions in the Fortress of Yre? Jagganoth mentions that the cyclical heir does normally rally a band of companions, so why is being companionable special? If Zoss has more attempts than there are drops of water in the sea, why is any particular attempt unique? You can have companions and not value them.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:18
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as excellent as the original demiurges scene was, there's a lot of bits in it that don't jibe with the rest of the plot. safe to assume that abaddon just changed direction a little as he went on
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Jun 6, 2021 20:39
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Shugojin posted:You can have companions and not value them. Better still, gaslight the poo poo out of them for your next do over. Aka the Nameless One protocol.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:42
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A.o.D. posted:I think the difference between Allison and the previous heirs is that she didn't strike them down when she encountered them in their dens of iniquity. Operant's a fan of Nietzsche, and I feel this is built on the concept of Eternal Recurrence, where, in an infinitely large universe or infinite amount of time, there are thus an infinite number of copies of any particular permutation of the world. So if you have an infinite amount of planets, eventually, one will be identical to Earth in every way, including the people on it. Not much of a Nietzschean, so I don't want to speak too authoritatively, but the concept is more of a thought experiment of how we think of ourselves and our actions when they are not truly unique. Every choice we make happens when there is a universe/Earth/etc. where we've already made that choice. Everything we do has been done and will be done again. But the point I would take with this is that the Eternal Recurrence that we see with the Wheel is Eternal in general, rather than specific. There is, inevitably, a human who achieves Royalty (Jagganoth assumes it is always Zoss, but I don't think it has to be) and makes war upon Heaven, conquering Throne and becoming the Ruling King. As more sorcerer-kings gather in Throne, they build a paradise, but, inevitably, because these kings are warriors, the peace is unsustainable and Universal War is declared. This war cannot end except with a cartel of power, perhaps even requiring exactly 7 members so that the universe is equally divisible (so if 6, 8, or more key-bearers attempt the Pact, it inevitably fails from being unable to divide the universe without the pact collapsing before they can eliminate all their rivals) and each acquires a Word to bear. So there is always a Bearer of the Word "Sword," who may not be Yaun, but, as Bearer of Sword, is always a violent, traumatized, and dangerous man who accepts Metatron's gift to destroy the world, defeat the Heir, and renew the cycle. Because it is an eternally recurring cycle, Jagganoth, who is Enlightened (though, I think, Nietzsche would find his war on time laughably ignorant), knows that the end of the world he's bringing has never been stopped, because if it had, they would still be on the cycle where his plan was stopped. But I'd note it also means his current plan has never succeeded, because if it had, time would have already been defeated. If all there is is Throne, and this cycle has limitlessly repeated an infinite number of times, then it is impossible for either Jagganoth or Allison to do anything differently, because on an infinite scale, everything has always already been tried and nothing has stopped the cycle. But of course, perhaps the cycle is not eternal, perhaps the attempts, though many, are also finite. If that's the case, than Allison's fight is not absurd because it's never been attempted before. But that would mean Jagganoth's attempt is likewise new, and perhaps one of them, by ending time or liberating Throne from Metatron, can actually win.
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Jun 6, 2021 20:52
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Precambrian posted:Operant's a fan of Nietzsche, and I feel this is built on the concept of Eternal Recurrence, where, in an infinitely large universe or infinite amount of time, there are thus an infinite number of copies of any particular permutation of the world. So if you have an infinite amount of planets, eventually, one will be identical to Earth in every way, including the people on it. Not much of a Nietzschean, so I don't want to speak too authoritatively, but the concept is more of a thought experiment of how we think of ourselves and our actions when they are not truly unique. Every choice we make happens when there is a universe/Earth/etc. where we've already made that choice. Everything we do has been done and will be done again. This isn't really Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence. The original form of the Recurrence is a hypothetical that presents a devil's bargain, literally: Friedrich Nietzsche, in The Gay Science, posted:What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: 'This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence' ... Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: 'You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine.' Later, Nietzsche became interested in the idea that this could be physically true, but he didn't suggest the possibility of different variations: The point is that you will always do the same thing, every time. Your life is all of eternity for you, and all of eternity as yourself is still being yourself. There's applicability to K6BD, the demiurges, and especially to Jagganoth and Zoss, but it's about the essence of people and not their non-uniqueness. Jagganoth has embraced an eternity of making the same decisions over and over, and all the Demiurges have done so more or less the same, and Zoss has only after many many iterations decided to try something new. Also regarding KILL THE BEAST AND TAKE THEIR HEADS remember that Zoss had only just died - he's sort of hosed up in that scene. He gets Allison's name wrong. He stumbles over the terms. That Zoss isn't the Zoss we meet later; arguably, it's the failed Zoss, the Zoss who has tried so many times and not yet learned, because he's newly dead. The Zoss who appears again later, in Allison's head rather than in the Void, is a lot more cogent. E: More Nietzsche, that speaks to Yisun's love of fools: Nietzsche's Ecce Homo, from the chapter Why I Am So Clever, posted:"My formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely bear what is necessary, still less conceal it—all idealism is mendacity in the face of what is necessary—but love it." All idealism is mendacity, and God is a liar. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Jun 6, 2021 |
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Jun 6, 2021 21:55
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I would guess the Pursuers were the previous timelines' companions. Or "companions" since they're more of a mercenary army.
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Jun 6, 2021 22:05
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Maybe I'm talking out of my rear end here, but: Zoss, along with Meti, is sort of the focal point of the comic's tension between its ostensible Nietzschean will-to-power aesthetic and its more conventional "nice modern progressive" sensibility, where power is always suspect and the violence of the system is the real overarching evil. Most of that tension has been resolved through the idea that the Demiurges' oppressive empires are ultimately bad for them and that the stagnation of the universe is a symptom of the oppressors' own inability to self-actualize. Sure, the Demiurges are tyrants, but ultimately they're also their own jailers. Within that context, it's not really impossible that when Zoss made Allison his heir and gave her a ridiculously ominous name, he's advocating violence but only in a way that doesn't just repeat the enemy's mistakes. Cut yourself into new shapes, the real struggle is against the self, etc. In conclusion: Reach Heaven Through Violence.
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Jun 6, 2021 22:37
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*nods sagely* I punch the words in the face to assert dominance Roll initiative
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Jun 6, 2021 23:41
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Shugojin posted:god this was so appropriate for the eclipse Having not actually read Berserk, any context for this?
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Jun 6, 2021 23:59
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Joe Slowboat posted:Jagganoth has embraced an eternity of making the same decisions over and over Just to touch on this, he has not. Rather the opposite: he feels that himself and all of creation have been forced into that without knowledge of it. He is now somehow aware that it has happened and seeks to end it
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Jun 7, 2021 00:05
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Rhaka posted:Having not actually read Berserk, any context for this? Berserk starts of telling the tale of a broken man who only wants revenge. You read through one arc in the present day about him and then the manga flashes back to his WHOLE life before. It's an entire arc of the manga, it took irl years to be told, there's romance and love triangles and politics and war and so many characters and you know its going to go wrong the whole time and then- The Eclipse.
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Jun 7, 2021 00:06
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Rhaka posted:Having not actually read Berserk, any context for this? you know in bloodborne when you start off having a good time killing some draculas and some werewolves in ye olde london towne just having a jolly old time and then you manage to collect enough insight to look up at the face of the tower in the skybox and see an amygdala Cowcaster fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 00:35
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i may or may not be re-shotgunning of all berserk in some sort of tribute to miura's heart exploding, rip to a real one
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Jun 7, 2021 00:42
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Victis posted:Just to touch on this, he has not. Rather the opposite: he feels that himself and all of creation have been forced into that without knowledge of it. Every single loop his response to the inescapability of violence and the nature of time, and to the time loop Metatron has put him in, is the same: Violence it but even better. That's the decision everyone is making and has been making for both millennia of normal time and untold numbers of re-spun time. That's what Zoss says has to change. Jagganoth knows he's making the same decision over and over, but he keeps doing it thinking this time will be the one he kills Metatron and remakes the universe.
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Jun 7, 2021 01:57
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Rhaka posted:Having not actually read Berserk, any context for this? The music in the thing I quoted was from the 1997 adaptation and it was for that moment in the series. Read the manga if you want to. It's one of the most gorgeous manga ever made because he was one of the most talented artists in the entire industry. It ran from 1989 until his death and he never stopped getting improving his art. It's also, uhh, well. Bad things happen to people in it. I'm not really going to try to explain what the Eclipse is because, well, I don't think I can do it justice. Shugojin fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jun 7, 2021 |
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Jun 7, 2021 02:47
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Shugojin posted:It's also, uhh, well. Bad things happen to people in it. This is an understatement, Berserk is pretty heavy. The story is very good but ouch.
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Jun 7, 2021 02:55
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The Eclipse is a spectacular, surreal, and profoundly terrifying, nauseating, and tragic depiction of all hell breaking loose, and I mean that in the absolute most literal sense possible.
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Jun 7, 2021 03:54
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Precambrian posted:This war cannot end except with a cartel of power, perhaps even requiring exactly 7 members so that the universe is equally divisible (so if 6, 8, or more key-bearers attempt the Pact, it inevitably fails from being unable to divide the universe without the pact collapsing before they can eliminate all their rivals) 239 would work too 
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Jun 7, 2021 06:23
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Precambrian posted:But the point I would take with this is that the Eternal Recurrence that we see with the Wheel is Eternal in general, rather than specific. There is, inevitably, a human who achieves Royalty (Jagganoth assumes it is always Zoss, but I don't think it has to be) and makes war upon Heaven, conquering Throne and becoming the Ruling King. But that's not how it's been presented in the story. By all accounts, Zoss is the one who "spins the wheel and laughs at God", who selects the Heir, etc. There's been nothing to suggest that the cycles are anything but Zoss, personally, resetting time when events reach a conclusion he doesn't like. While the descriptions of cycles have been pretty vague to date, the one common thread is Zoss - Zoss himself - as the one responsible.
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Jun 7, 2021 06:31
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GreyjoyBastard posted:239 would work too you have one too many sevens there
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Jun 7, 2021 06:33
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Precambrian posted:But the point I would take with this is that the Eternal Recurrence that we see with the Wheel is Eternal in general, rather than specific. This is what I was trying to say, thanks for putting it in better words!
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Jun 7, 2021 06:43
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Jun 7, 2021 08:39
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Eternal Recurrence emans that we're going full Xenosaga. Honestly KOS-MOS could have been a Tournament of Power contestant.
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Jun 7, 2021 11:58
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Joe Slowboat posted:This isn't really Nietzsche's Eternal Recurrence. The original form of the Recurrence is a hypothetical that presents a devil's bargain, literally: I said I wasn't a Nietzschean because I've encountered that any opinion on Nietzsche has a bevy of authors expressing the counter opinion on it, inevitably including Nietzsche. But yes, I'm familiar with that take, and I don't think we're in disagreement: I like Maudemarie Clark's (had to google it, I misremembered it as Heidegger) take that it's like a wife asking her husband if he'd still marry her, knowing what their marriage was. To joyfully embrace life without the escape of chronology, the "thank God that's over," is a fair reading of Nietzsche's approach. But I find that interpretation less productive because it doesn't really work for the Eternal Recurrence. What makes it "eternal" is that, in encountering infinity like this, past, present, and future become arbitrary—the past is not finished and the future has already occurred, all present choices have already been made. It makes time absurd, in an existential sense, and I think that's useful for understanding Jagganoth and Allison. They both are in an absurd war against their past and future, where they're both trying to find something new and achieve something other than the infinite number of previous attempts, hoping that the other side is actually something different for once. With White Chain, an angel using she/her pronouns and changing from the white flame to the black, I think Operant is very much championing that there is newness and ways out of the stagnant, infertile infinity. Otherkinsey Scale posted:But that's not how it's been presented in the story. By all accounts, Zoss is the one who "spins the wheel and laughs at God", who selects the Heir, etc. There's been nothing to suggest that the cycles are anything but Zoss, personally, resetting time when events reach a conclusion he doesn't like. Yeah, Jagganoth's about the best informed character on the subject and he thinks it's Zoss, so there's pretty good reason to think that. But I like the idea that the Wheel is more of a "human nature leads to common trends" matter than the specific Wheel-turning machinations of two individuals, because it gives Allison's presumed eventual victory over it more kick. But even if Zoss is always Zoss, I'm more invested in the question if Jagganoth is always "Jagganoth," because K6BD is big on giving characters multiple names, with their most formal ones often being very ill-fitting. Mottom, for instance, is short for "Mother Om," with Om presumably being her late husband's name. Appropriate for her character, her name, Nadia, has been swallowed up by her title and her husband, the things she feels trapped by. And, of course, Chakravartin Jagganoth is Yaun, or Yaun-ten-Jantris, Jantris being the man who murdered his family and made him a Dead Man, and he is also, like his peers, "Bearer of a Word." Allison is first called "Alice" by Zoss, then "Kill 6 Billion Demons." Both are names applied to her, and I think the misapplication of "Alice" is as important as the title drop. The names are fixed, even if they don't fit, so there's always an heir, always a Bearer of the Word Sword, but the individuals beneath the mask shift, fruitlessly, as the Wheel turns.
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Jun 7, 2021 14:36
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Joe Slowboat posted:Every single loop his response to the inescapability of violence and the nature of time, and to the time loop Metatron has put him in, is the same: Violence it but even better. I'm not sure you're understanding the plot as presented tbh Jagganoth has never been cognizant that cycles have been eternally reset by Zoss until now. Yes, he always makes that same decision but he is the only survivor of every cycle and then made to forget his actions. He is never allowed to reflect or change because his agency is taken from him. Provided the knowledge he has obtained is valid As presented, Jaggs 'awakening' as well as Alice's existence are two wholly new wrinkles on the path(s) Zoss set the universe on
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Jun 7, 2021 16:05
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Victis posted:Jagganoth has never been cognizant that cycles have been eternally reset by Zoss until now. Yes, he always makes that same decision but he is the only survivor of every cycle and then made to forget his actions. He is never allowed to reflect or change because his agency is taken from him. I don't think this is true? he describes it as a gradual thing. "We have become increasingly aware of the extent of our own imprisonment"
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Jun 7, 2021 16:12
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Magnusth posted:I don't think this is true? he describes it as a gradual thing. "We have become increasingly aware of the extent of our own imprisonment" I mean he talks through it: https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/breaker-of-infinities-2-45/ https://killsixbilliondemons.com/comic/breaker-of-infinities-2-46/ He's pretty explicit what he means
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Jun 7, 2021 16:43
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Victis posted:I mean he talks through it: yes, I just quoted that. We clearly do not read it the same way.
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Jun 7, 2021 16:51
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e: nah
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Jun 7, 2021 16:54
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Magnusth posted:I don't think this is true? he describes it as a gradual thing. "We have become increasingly aware of the extent of our own imprisonment" Yeah it's like the Star Trek TNG episode where the ship is caught in a loop, and each loop they start noticing more and more little deja-vus before they finally comprehend what's happeneing
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Jun 7, 2021 17:40
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