(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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maybe because people feel like it doesn’t adequately address race and gender issues
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Jun 16, 2021 18:04
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in what way would the elimination of the conditions that engender "race and gender issues" not adequately address those issues
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Jun 16, 2021 18:15
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Ferrinus posted:the irony as usual is that it's lenin's enemies who were economy-first class reductionists and the actual communists who put a premium on such things as national liberation struggles and an end to ethnic or religious oppression but economism is not really what the people complaining about "class reductionism" are talking about
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Jun 16, 2021 18:19
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Lasting Damage posted:but economism is not really what the people complaining about "class reductionism" are talking about in practice they are complaining about what you might call "class additionism" but the fact remains that they're actually weak on race, gender, etc where communists are strong
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Jun 16, 2021 18:23
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I just don't trust the analysis of people who believe there was "mass, popular destruction of the USSR" by the masses of that county. https://twitter.com/Vicky_ACAB/status/1405195188591599620?s=20 like, identity politics in the late soviet union led to the wars over regions like nagorno-karabakh and frozen conflicts across eastern europe. it's part of the reason there's now a large number of zionist russian speakers in Israel. the soviet union obviously mishandled the nationality question since it was partly torn apart by nationalism, but the leading critics were not progressive forces. lgbtq people and minority nationalities are worse off now across the former eastern bloc than they were prior to 1989.
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Jun 16, 2021 18:29
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those things aren't critiques of the classical workers' movement and a turn towards great russian chauvinism was one of the signs of the ussr's coming fall! "class-firstism" was never real to begin with!!!
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Jun 16, 2021 18:33
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indigi posted:maybe because people feel like it doesn’t adequately address race and gender issues that makes sense it is just strange for the left to abandon class which would produce 99% of the people suffering from oppression because of their race or gender to still get oppressed because of their class. but there always seems to be major institutional resistance to any kind of overt class politics. the modern left in the US appears to be no class politics at all which has produced some good results but also strange results like minority capitalists and women MIC CEOs. Torpor has issued a correction as of 18:43 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 18:36
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Critical Race Theory doesn't even mean anything removed from the context of the bourgeois legal system that produced it. The Race Theorists were the big winners of the USSR's collapse, not CRTs.indigi posted:maybe because people feel like it doesn’t adequately address race and gender issues Who does then? If people who make race & gender their focus while still maintaining a radical class politics have failed regardless then why aren't they satisfying anybody's feelings? It's just running in circles.
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Jun 16, 2021 18:58
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indigi posted:maybe because people feel like it doesn’t adequately address race and gender issues For anyone who legitimately feels this way I'd be curious to hear their thoughts on the Black Panther Party
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Jun 16, 2021 19:19
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disgusting what happened to them
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Jun 16, 2021 19:34
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MeatwadIsGod posted:For anyone who legitimately feels this way I'd be curious to hear their thoughts on the Black Panther Party I could be wrong but I was under the impression that specifically addressing race was a big part of the Black Panther Party
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Jun 16, 2021 19:35
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MeatwadIsGod posted:For anyone who legitimately feels this way I'd be curious to hear their thoughts on the Black Panther Party Yeah, I'm gonna guess that racial issues were maybe a fairly sizable part of their platform.
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Jun 16, 2021 19:37
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There has never been an Amerikan workers party of any importance to bourgeois politics, is probably the issue
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Jun 16, 2021 19:44
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Algund Eenboom posted:There has never been an Amerikan workers party of any importance to bourgeois politics, is probably the issue um ever heard of the Working Families Party???
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Jun 16, 2021 19:45
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indigi posted:um ever heard of the Working Families Party??? That party is not for workers, only their families. It's right there in the name.
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Jun 16, 2021 19:48
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Algund Eenboom posted:There has never been an Amerikan workers party of any importance to bourgeois politics, is probably the issue It's still technically illegal for the CPUSA to exist.
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Jun 16, 2021 19:56
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MeatwadIsGod posted:For anyone who legitimately feels this way I'd be curious to hear their thoughts on the Black Panther Party the Reds of the 1900-1930s had gender and racial justice as planks, some of the big civil rights cases in the South were defended by communists. heck the ACLU had a bunch of women socialists help start it. I’m not entirely sure what happened historically that the critique of the Left in the 50-70’s was like “the left ignores gender and race” edit whoops Torpor has issued a correction as of 20:13 on Jun 16, 2021 |
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Jun 16, 2021 20:09
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Torpor posted:the Reds of the 1900-1930s had gender and racial justice as planks, some of the big civil rights cases in the South were defended by communists. the magic of just loving lie while holding on to all the printing presses and megaphones
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Jun 16, 2021 20:11
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Torpor posted:I’m not entirely sure what happened historically that the critique of the Left in the 50-70’s was like “the left ignores gendered and race” the ones that didn’t were marginalized and killed
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Jun 16, 2021 20:11
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Torpor posted:the Reds of the 1900-1930s had gender and racial justice as planks, some of the big civil rights cases in the South were defended by communists. heck the ACLU had a bunch of women socialists help start it. the cpusa discarded the black belt thesis
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Jun 16, 2021 20:12
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"marxists ignore race and gender issues" is largely a dishonest angle of attack by liberals imo
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Jun 16, 2021 20:12
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John Charity Spring posted:"marxists ignore race and gender issues" is largely a dishonest angle of attack by liberals imo in general yes but a lot of loud ones with big followings and podcasts do ignore them or outright mock people for caring about them
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Jun 16, 2021 20:14
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Ferrinus posted:in practice they are complaining about what you might call "class additionism" but the fact remains that they're actually weak on race, gender, etc where communists are strong begrudingly adding another group to the pile and coming up with more abstract positions for my kin to fill
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Jun 16, 2021 20:16
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Ferrinus posted:the cpusa discarded the black belt thesis BROOWWDERRRR. 
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Jun 16, 2021 20:18
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indigi posted:in general yes but a lot of loud ones with big followings and podcasts do ignore them or outright mock people for caring about them this critique seems to have come up in the 60-70’s though? the statement above about abandoning the black belt thesis in 1943 might explain it a bit.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:20
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Torpor posted:this critique seems to have come up in the 60-70’s though? it’s come up for as long as there have been Marxists. contemporaries criticized Marx and Engels for it, Lenin wrote about it, it’s not new and it’s a persistent problem among (mostly race/gender/orientation-privileged) marxists
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Jun 16, 2021 20:25
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indigi posted:maybe because people feel like it doesn’t adequately address race and gender issues indigi posted:in general yes but a lot of loud ones with big followings and podcasts do ignore them or outright mock people for caring about them indigi posted:it’s come up for as long as there have been Marxists. contemporaries criticized Marx and Engels for it, Lenin wrote about it, it’s not new and it’s a persistent problem among (mostly race/gender/orientation-privileged) marxists lol the hot takes thread is that way bud
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Jun 16, 2021 20:26
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part of the issue is also that marxists must necessarily reject a bunch of the ideological framework which holds up the presently dominant intellectual tendencies within contemporary anti-racism/queer liberation/feminism, which will be interpreted as an attack on the concept of anti-racism/queer liberation/feminism as such, which gets you into accusations of class reductionism or red-brown whatever an example of this is putting the base/superstructure model into question under, ah, rhetorically unfavourable conditions
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Jun 16, 2021 20:31
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i can't actually think of marxists with big followings who are like, distinctly and memorably class reductionist. chapo used to make fun of """idpol""" a lot but for example you don't hear them saying that the israel/palestine conflict is a distraction from the truly important issue of medicare for all. generally criticisms that marxism pays insufficient attention to issues of identity either comes from straightforward ignorance, limited experience with fringe forms of western "marxism" that are ultimately irrelevant on the world stage, or actual dishonesty
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Jun 16, 2021 20:32
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Ferrinus posted:generally criticisms that marxism pays insufficient attention to issues of identity either comes from straightforward ignorance, limited experience with fringe forms of western "marxism" that are ultimately irrelevant on the world stage, or actual dishonesty agreed in the large majority of cases although the Red Scare ladies seem to still go hard in the paint against non-class stuff. also the girl Chapo seems to constantly be sticking her foot in her mouth wrt marginalized groups and gets published in Jacobin about it e: another problem is people who identify as “socialists” and only ever talk about M4A and have pretty poo poo opinions on everything else being wrongly identified as marxists/communists
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Jun 16, 2021 20:36
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i've never listened to red scare but i'd be surprised to learn they even call themselves marxists. either way i class them among the western left fringe that ultimately boils down to a bunch of confused liberals
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Jun 16, 2021 20:39
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Who gives a gently caress about podcasters?
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Jun 16, 2021 20:39
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Who gives a gently caress about podcasters? you'll take deadlock pro wrestling from my cold dead hands DA BOYS ARE BACK IN TOWN
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Jun 16, 2021 20:42
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Who gives a gently caress about podcasters? c’mon it’s 2021. this is like asking who cares about youtube in 2014
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Jun 16, 2021 20:44
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Atrocious Joe posted:https://twitter.com/Vicky_ACAB/status/1405194095887372290?s=20 https://twitter.com/Mango_Press_/status/1338864433032884224?s=19 Lausan is literally a NED-funded op, FYI
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Jun 16, 2021 20:47
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indigi posted:c’mon it’s 2021. this is like asking who cares about youtube in 2014 If people are taking podcasters as their cue to reject communism (from podcasters who are not even communist anyway!) then they were always worthless and should be ignored.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:47
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If people are taking podcasters as their cue to reject communism (from podcasters who are not even communist anyway!) then they were always worthless and should be ignored. img_Lenin-Its-Not-My-Job-to-Educate-You.png
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Jun 16, 2021 20:50
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indigi posted:I could be wrong but I was under the impression that specifically addressing race was a big part of the Black Panther Party My point was that the whole race reductionist vs class reductionist discourse is a disingenuous wedge tactic and the BPP understood that pretty clearly. It's a false dichotomy.
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Jun 16, 2021 20:52
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indigi posted:img_Lenin-Its-Not-My-Job-to-Educate-You.png You consistently loving suck at posting in every thread
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Jun 16, 2021 21:00
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You would reach more people being a crank on a street corner than trying to educate a twitter poster who listens to NED cutouts.
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Jun 16, 2021 21:05
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