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I dismounted my bike yesterday but forgot to put the sidestand down  I bent my gear shift lever without noticing, and then split the dust cover/boot over the ball joint when I tried to shift. Can I just buy a dust cover and slide it up and over? This drawing seems to imply that 1 and 3 (or 2 and 3) should be either bought together or come together anyway. I bent my gear lever before and needed to replace it, and my recollection is the boot was already on there. 
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Jun 21, 2021 01:56
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2 and 1 are completely different, they have opposite threads and 1 is a part of the little splined arm while 2 is part of the gear shifter. Both will come with a boot fitted. Looks like the boot is the same on both and the diagram implies it can be bought separately but this may not be possible IRL. When you take this stuff apart remember the the center rod is a length adjuster, the threads are opposite on either end so it's critical to have both ends spun on the same number of turns before fitting to the bike.
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Jun 21, 2021 02:09
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Got it, thanks. Yeah the weird conjoined lines makes it seem like they are both separate and bundles parts. I'll give the whole linkage a good look over tomorrow and make sure nothing else is messed up. It felt fine after I pulled it straight. I need to order a new clutch lever as well. I can't believe I did that  I blame the heat. It was over 100 for most of the day.BTW what happens if you don't put even turns on the rod? It will add an angle and give you sloppy shifting?
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Jun 21, 2021 03:06
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I got a ride home and went back armed and ready to kick rear end With a backup plan of getting somebody at work to help me get it into my truck if I failed. But I won  Is there any reason I shouldn't just leave a bolt in there, and is there a certain kind I should use, ie zinc plated, black oxide, stainless or other?
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Jun 21, 2021 03:16
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Bolts don't work, the system operates on the gasket maintaining tension on the nut, I've never seen a bolt last long in this situation but ymmv. They used a stud for a reason basically. They are cheap as poo poo from Suzuki, it's by far the easiest solution.Toe Rag posted:BTW what happens if you don't put even turns on the rod? It will add an angle and give you sloppy shifting? You spend the rest of your life going mad because you can get it to shift up OR down fine, but not both. Slavvy fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 03:51
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Don't you just reduce the amount of length adjustment available?
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Jun 21, 2021 07:58
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How does the number of turns on the ball-socket bolts change gear shifting? Isn’t it an adjuster so you can adjust the height of the shift lever? [edit] and what’s the difference between a stud and a nut, and a bolt (aka a stud with a nut welded on the top) ? Aren’t both turning rotational torque into compression, at exactly the same rate (due to the same thread pitch) ? Horse Clocks fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Jun 21, 2021 |
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Jun 21, 2021 10:30
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Horse Clocks posted:How does the number of turns on the ball-socket bolts change gear shifting? This is going to need a bad diagram to explain. But I have a sketchbook and a pen and a cup of coffee, so here goes.  The tl;dr is threads are really really strong because there's so much surface area to spread the load. On the left is a bolt. The red bit is the gasket that's trying to uncompress. The green arrows are the forces it's applying to the bolt. These are spread all over all the tiny threads, but at the end, they're all acting on the bolt head. No problem if the bolt is strong enough, but your typical 99c bin zinc plated fence hardware isn't really up to the job. On the right is a stud with a nut. Same deal, but as you can see the stud has all these strong threads that contact the strong nut threads spreading the force all along them, in addition to the nut face itself where it contacts the case. More surface area, more strong. Now you can use the 99c bin zinc plated fence hardware with no problem.
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Jun 21, 2021 12:33
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Horse Clocks posted:How does the number of turns on the ball-socket bolts change gear shifting? It changes the height by adjusting the length of the pushrod, if you have an uneven number of turns between the two ball joints you'll end up with a lever that's never in the right place. Finger Prince posted:This is going to need a bad diagram to explain. But I have a sketchbook and a pen and a cup of coffee, so here goes. Adding to this, the stud has to stretch and contract a great deal with heat, which is why it's 2" long in the first place instead of just having everything stacked flush against the head with a short fastener. Having a nut means having double the amount of threads that need to give up before the thing loosens from expansion. Some brands solve this by having the stud retain a spring that compresses the gasket, these are usually just a plain bolt, because the bolt never experiences any real loads, because all it's doing is holding a spring. One of the unfixable problems on an iron head sportster is that some of the cylinder head studs are really short (like 40mm) and only join the head to the barrel instead of going all the way down into the cases. There is simply not enough stud length to accommodate thermal expansion regardless of what it's made of or how it's assembled, the expansion/contraction of the head always pings it off eventually. If you look at the exhaust studs on a high mileage commuter you'll see they start to neck in the middle from the constant stretching.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:10
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Even though I never asked the question, thanks for the explanation (and drawings!) Is it the same situation for holding on the head, and other big "keeping in the bangs" fasteners? Presumably you wouldn't normally ever actually take the stud out unless something was seriously hosed so it doesn't matter if you just vice-grip it out as you'd be replacing it anyway. Also I guess that when you put a new one in you just do it up finger tight because it'll be held in place when you tighten the nut up anyway? I ask because stupidly I'd always assumed that they were actually cast into the block itself - I admit I've always considered anything involving those apart from once replacing an exhaust header to be a "Pay money to a grown-up to fix" class of problem so I'd never actually thought about it - but I'm only now realising that doing that would just write the engine off if you got a bit over-enthusiastic with the sockets.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:54
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You have to tighten them in there, sometimes with locking compound. There are special tools for it but I've never seen one, I just use two nuts locked together and so does everyone else seemingly. Heads are sometimes held on with really long bolts, but it's harder to do than studs with nuts, so you usually only see it on modern engines where thermal expansion is minimal. Anything that's going to expand a lot is going to be much easier (cheaper) to do with a nut and stud than a bolt alone. Harley solved the aforementioned problem in an interesting way - yes, they made really long studs that go right through the barrel and into the cases, but then you have the problem of not being able to remove the head and barrel in the bike. Basically all metric cruiser designs stop there, shrug and say suck it up and take the engine out. Harley didn't want this to be the case so they opted for a sort of hybrid system where the studs come up just past the barrel, and the 'nuts' are a good 3" tall, most of which is shank, so they can still sandwich the whole cylinder stack, accommodate the stretch in the stud, have a good two inches of thread contact, but still have studs short enough to make it possible for the barrel to slip past. It's quite clever.
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Jun 21, 2021 20:30
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All of this is reminding me that my header studs, nuts, and clamps all look rusty as gently caress and I kind of dread having anything to do with them Fortunately I adore my exhaust so it's not going anywhere any time soon
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Jun 21, 2021 20:41
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Speaking of all this talk about header studs, nuts, clamps, and heat expansion, after torquing down them nuts, would it be prudent after running the bike through at least one heat cycle, to re-torque them nuts?
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Jun 21, 2021 20:55
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It's normal to tighten ask the fasteners again after the first test ride on air cooled bikes, bikes that have rickety multi-piece exhausts like your sportster, basically anything that can settle and shift with heat - so mostly older designs that are made of lots of little bits bolted together, whereas modern stuff tends to be large monolithic castings.
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Jun 21, 2021 21:31
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This is getting really pedantic now, and probably doesn't even matter, but, is the intention on ancient design air cooled engines to re-torque header fasteners while hot? Or after a heat cycle, after it's cooled down.
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Jun 21, 2021 22:34
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epswing posted:This is getting really pedantic now, and probably doesn't even matter, but, is the intention on ancient design air cooled engines to re-torque header fasteners while hot? Or after a heat cycle, after it's cooled down. Just a guess but the ambient torque spec should be designed to take thermal expansion into account. Any re-torque if required by the manual would also be at ambient temps.
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Jun 21, 2021 22:40
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epswing posted:This is getting really pedantic now, and probably doesn't even matter, but, is the intention on ancient design air cooled engines to re-torque header fasteners while hot? Or after a heat cycle, after it's cooled down. It's always when cold as far as I've seen. If you go back far enough, tensioning head nuts is part of routine maintenance because there was no way to hold them still reliably. If you go back further than that, removing and decarbonizing the head, piston and valves is part of routine maintenance. If you go back further still, valves and valve springs themselves become wear items so head studs coming loose never had a chance to be an issue. You can see how this process of problem > solution > solution creates new problem happens time and again over the decades on basically every system of the bike. Bike handles like poo poo > tyre grip improves making brakes suboptimal > brakes become larger and heavier > wheels are now impractically heavy so they have to be made of alloy > overall increased kinetic performance causes drastic frame flex and cracking > frames have to get bigger and heavier > bike handles like poo poo again. This is why I bang on about philosophy. It isn't about having the 'best' bike by some numerical metric, it's about having the optimal bike, which is how bikes that look slow on paper can be very fast IRL.
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Jun 21, 2021 22:59
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I feel like this comes up a lot and I never really pay attention so I’ll do the thing again. Thinking about getting my wheels powedercoated this offseason and I’ll be probably halfway through the age shelf life of the OEM tires on my N650. I’m not really shy of spending money on the bike so I’m thinking I might just replace the tires while I’m at it even if they have a year or two left. I don’t have any specific complaints about the OEM Dunlop Sportmax D214F rubber that shipped with the bike but it’s also my first bigger bike so I’m not sure what good even feels like, I have no basis for comparison. So I don’t know, I was thinking Dunlop SportMax Q3 Plus, or Michelin Road Pilot 5? I’m literally just taking names I read googling “good sport street tire” so I guess I’m open to suggestions. My requirements are pretty basic. Good cornering traction as I get more comfortable with the bike, which I guess is accomplished by any good tire. No track days in my future, and I’m not likely to run a tire down as I probably do <2500km/annually. some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jun 23, 2021 |
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Jun 23, 2021 19:48
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Ryan F9 was talking up the Dunlop Roadsport 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duwIOAFexIw The usual suspects are the Angel GT and Pilot 5 as you mentioned.
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Jun 23, 2021 20:54
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Do you ride in the rain and/or cold weather? My old bike came with Pirelli Diablo SuperCorsa SPs (I think that was the exact model), which are super sticky but absolutely suck in the rain. If I only rode in dry and not cold weather and wasn't doing a lot of miles per year they'd be a great option if you want the comfort of knowing your tire has more grip than you have skill. I replaced them with Dunlop Q3+ and was very happy. I'm not good enough to notice a difference in traction in warm and dry weather (if there is any) but they felt 10x safer in the rain. The local supermoto class only uses Q3+ on their bikes and they even work pretty well in the dirt (for a street tire).
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Jun 23, 2021 21:17
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Very much a Sunday afternoon rider, mostly dry, warm conditions between April and early November. Wet traction would be appreciated in case of the unexpected but if it's raining out I won't be on the bike TBH. I'm thinking Q3+ but I'll see what happens closer to when/if I pull the wheels.
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Jun 23, 2021 22:42
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Strife posted:Every day when I start this bike I have to fight with it. It was the battery. I replaced it and now it starts fine. I'm not sure how a battery would fail after exactly one year, but at least it starts properly now. Also this was the first time I've had to fill a battery, that was interesting. 
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Jun 23, 2021 23:03
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That's cause the battery is probably still perfectly good and would work fine in a japanese bike, multimeter is your friend here. The issue is ducatis in particular look at the battery voltage while cranking and won't let the bike start if it's below a certain value. It's entirely possible to have a battery be able to crank the motor over no problems while dipping below this arbitrary voltage threshold. Triumph are the only other brand that does it this way and it manifests exactly the same way. Basically it's needless digitization to protect against vanishingly unlikely damaging events (this is the kindest interpretation I can think of for ever bothering with this bullshit in the first place) at the expense of the other 99.99% of the time when you just want an engine that starts. Both brands also exacerbate the issue by having garbage earthing schemes, lovely connectors, wiring only barely adequate for the task in optimal conditions, and battery sizing that is also only barely adequate in optimal conditions. Cause every gram counts when you're pushing a bike that won't start. So your battery is 'fine' by normal bike standards but probably drops below 12.4V or whatever the value is while cranking and that causes the ecu to nope out.
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Jun 23, 2021 23:25
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I'm struggling to imagine a damage event that would be caused by low voltage. Wouldn't it just.. not have the guts to turn over and that's it? As a lay person I'm just imagining it like turning a key in my car and the starter motor clicks a few times and I'm scratching my head.
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Jun 23, 2021 23:35
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It’s an  thing. Implementing something to solve some weird edge case that’s not really a problem and then accidentally creating an entire genre of new problems
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Jun 24, 2021 00:03
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Martytoof posted:I'm struggling to imagine a damage event that would be caused by low voltage. Wouldn't it just.. not have the guts to turn over and that's it? Well you wouldn't want the low voltage to accidentally set a zero instead of a one in some random memory register and cause a divide by zero error when it tries to check the ambient temperature.
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Jun 24, 2021 01:00
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Finger Prince posted:Well you wouldn't want the low voltage to accidentally set a zero instead of a one in some random memory register and cause a divide by zero error when it tries to check the ambient temperature. Somewhere an Aprilia software developer just got very sad
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Jun 24, 2021 01:29
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Martytoof posted:I'm struggling to imagine a damage event that would be caused by low voltage. Wouldn't it just.. not have the guts to turn over and that's it? As voltage goes down, current goes up, so low voltage can cause starter relays to overheat or even fuse shut, wiring heats up etc. Basically all problems that are solved by making the electrical system not cheap garbage, but on planet italy it is cheaper/easier to have a logic circuit to protect the cheap garbage from bursting into flame.
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Jun 24, 2021 02:05
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Slavvy posted:As voltage goes down, current goes up, ...
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Jun 24, 2021 11:21
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Slavvy posted:That's cause the battery is probably still perfectly good and would work fine in a japanese bike, multimeter is your friend here. So, in summary, if you want your Ducati and Triumph to work every time, keep them on a battery tender?
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Jun 24, 2021 14:52
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Return Loss posted:That's only the case for rather special constant-power stuff, like the input side of a switch-mode power converter. Not things like a starter motor in a traditional ICE motorcycle. ??? It's ohm's law...? Steakandchips posted:So, in summary, if you want your Ducati and Triumph to work every time, keep them on a battery tender? No, in summary get a loving Japanese bike all the 'specialness' is 99% marketing bullshit that isn't worth the hassle.
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Jun 24, 2021 18:58
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What you are describing is something called 'negative resistance', which you only see in stuff like gas discharge tubes (neon, fluorescent), welding arcs and tunnel/gunn diodes, and indeed switching power supplies that are designed to do that. Above a certain threshold, voltage goes up, current goes down. Voltage goes down, current goes up. Motors do *not* have negative resistance, they have conventional resistance. Voltage goes down, current goes down. The major risk is burning out the starter motor due to stalling it, or cranking it almost stalled. Regardless of the voltage, a stalled motor almost equals a short circuit. A weak battery makes it more likely that you (almost) stall the motor cause it can't deliver the power needed to crank the engine, and with an (almost) stalled motor there can flow enough current to fry the windings. A stalled motor still adheres to ohm's law (voltage down, current down - voltage up, current up). But the risk of running the starter motor too close to stalling, is simply lower with a fully charged battery. To fry your starter motor (or other bits in that circuit) with a weak battery you gotta be particularly stupid to keep attempting to start while it's already clear that it isn't gonna start. In any case, take a look at older DC electric locomotives. They control their speed with yuge banks of resistors to lower the voltage to the traction motors. I guarantee you that with lower voltage, the current also lowers. And those motors are of the same type as starter motors (but meant for continuous use) LimaBiker fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Jun 24, 2021 |
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Jun 24, 2021 19:09
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Here is what I know: an inductive clamp on a starter positive lead, while attempting to crank, with a hosed starter, makes the amperage reading go crazy while battery voltage tanks. Doing the same thing with a healthy starter leads to significantly less current draw and meltiness. My thinking is triumph/Ducati are using the voltage drop from this as a failsafe trigger because their bikes are extra flammable. The middle of your post seems to contradict the other parts so I don't really understand wtf you're saying.
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Jun 24, 2021 19:21
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Slavvy posted:Here is what I know: an inductive clamp on a starter positive lead, while attempting to crank, with a hosed starter, makes the amperage reading go crazy while battery voltage tanks. Doing the same thing with a healthy starter leads to significantly less current draw and meltiness. My thinking is triumph/Ducati are using the voltage drop from this as a failsafe trigger because their bikes are extra flammable. This is a different thing than U = RI. No need for your on-brand saltiness if electricity isn't your strength. quote:Electric motors[1] continue to provide torque when stalled. However, electric motors left in a stalled condition are prone to overheating and possible damage since the current flowing is maximum under these conditions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_torque
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Jun 24, 2021 19:29
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I don't see how any of that contradicts anything I've said, I also don't see how I'm salty or a brand. Just trying to understand why dumb bikes do dumb bike poo poo.
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Jun 24, 2021 19:41
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Since it's kind of my unofficial job to translate between engineers and mechanics, and my background is in electron wrangling, let's see what confusion I can add to this. DC motors are just a winding of wire in a magnetic field which, because of electron magic (or physics if you're boring), causes it to spin. As long as its turning, you're never actually sending any DC current through the wire (because of the split commutator ring). Every half (or quarter, or 6th, however many armatures/rotors you have) turn, the current changes direction, effectively making it an AC circuit. So far so good. More voltage, more spinning. Less voltage, less spinning. Current, who cares about current. It goes back and forth, don't worry about it. Until the spinning almost stops. Then you're just applying voltage to just a plain-rear end wire with the other end connected to ground. Now you have a short circuit, and suddenly current matters a whole lot, because all of it, even at the whatever inadequate voltage your poor battery is trying to maintain, is firing down that tiny gauge magnet wire and attempting to set your motorbike on fire. So you're all correct! The circuit obeys Ohm's, Lenz's, Faraday's, and all those guys laws. Then when the motor stops turning with voltage still applied, Ohm kicks everyone's rear end and sets fire to the place by trying to get as close to infinite current as the internal resistance of the wire is willing to allow before melting.
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Jun 24, 2021 20:39
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Finger Prince posted:Since it's kind of my unofficial job to translate between engineers and mechanics, and my background is in electron wrangling, let's see what confusion I can add to this. Thank you, this is pretty much how I was imagining it works. I can tell you that often, stuff upstream of the starter dies first - relay contacts weld together, battery cables melt etcetera. Somewhat related fun: Harleys have a car-style starter where they have a pinion on a throw-out arm instead of the constant mesh sprag like most bikes, so the starter has a separate quite large solenoid on top of it that is very visible and accessible. Custom choppers often start like garbage because they're wired by texan crackheads, so you can get an aftermarket solenoid butt-plate that has a physical plunger on it. Solenoid not moving when you push the starter button? No problem, just turn the bike on, ram that plunger in and get it cranking directly! At that point, the solenoid contacts weld themselves together and the bike won't stop cranking. You're frantically trying to pull the plunger back out but it's slick featureless chrome so you don't have a chance. The bike still won't stop cranking even though it's started running now so you turn the key off but the starter current is coming direct from the battery so the bike is still cranking and starting to smoke. You're now desperately clawing at your idiotic seat, pawing at the pile of loose wiring underneath that you'll definitely get to one day, and the bike is still cranking. The battery terminals are now white-hot and you can't touch the cables and you're fumbling trying to get a 10mm spanner past the oil tank and the bike continues to crank until it bursts into flame or you cut a cable. Now imagine the above, except the guy decided to park in gear, on a slope, by a bunch of other choppers. It was like the world's most expensive domino trick.
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Jun 24, 2021 21:02
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Man, Elon's still got time to catch up!
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Jun 24, 2021 21:23
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Central to the whole thing is the (almost) stalling of the starter motor. If you *don't stall* it with a weak battery, there is less current flowing than with a good battery. If you do (almost) stall it, with a weak battery (and there's a greater risk of that with a weak one) there will be less current flowing than with a good battery. The main point of attention is that there's a higher risk of stalling the starter motor, or almost stalling it, which makes the current skyrocket. The skyrocketing current is the cause of the dropping voltage, not the consequence of it. I actually have a lab model of this stuff at work. Perhaps some day i'll make a video about it. That said, HAAAAALP! I know lots about electronics, but haven't ever touched brakes myself. On my 1993 fzr600 3he there are better, newer brakes fitted. Either GSXR brake pump/lever and R6 calipers, or the other way round. This worked very very well with the aftermarket higher mounted sumo-like bars. Considerably nicer than my SV650's brakes. However, i've put back some original clipons. Now i've discovered that A. the hose and fittings pretty much jam against the fork and B. the lever might bump into the frame that carries the fairing, or the fairing itself (it was sawn off at the tape, will kinda extend in the direction of the gray lines, i've already bought an original subframe). So i most likely have to buy a new brake lever/pump. How do i find out if the original FZR600 brake lever and pump are suitable for the brake calipers that are fitted to the bike? I prefer to keep those, because the whole front brake setup feels really quite nice. It also looks like i could just flip the metal part where the brake pump connects to the rubber hose. Is that part flippable? [img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/590236456942043136/857714838541565962/unknown.png[img]
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Jun 24, 2021 21:47
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LimaBiker posted:Central to the whole thing is the (almost) stalling of the starter motor. If you *don't stall* it with a weak battery, there is less current flowing than with a good battery. It's been a long time since I've needed to do much with even basic electrical math, but do I understand correctly that the voltage drop, measured across the battery, is due to a reverse voltage set up by the current flowing and the battery's own internal resistance? E: deleted the math because I don't know what a realistic number for battery internal resistance actually is. Phy fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jun 25, 2021 |
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Jun 24, 2021 23:01
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