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Do Vulcans draw on their cheeks a lot and I just never noticed?
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Jun 21, 2021 07:39
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Huh. I didn't know that. Not surprised about the rewrites, though, if stuff like Omega Glory is the result of Roddenberry writing an episode.
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Jun 21, 2021 08:26
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Robert Justman said he wrote a letter outlining the problems with the Omega Glory script, but decided it was too cruel to send to Roddenberry; I imagine nobody wanted to be the guy to tell the boss that not only was the script he was so proud of in need of rewrites, but that the entire basic concept needed to be scrapped.
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Jun 21, 2021 08:51
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I'm 5 episodes into Voyager and uh....is this what it's like for the whole series? It's so loving boring. Caretaker is a pretty decent pilot, Parallax is just a generic "weird space phenomenon". Time and Again continues the trend of all Prime Directive episodes being godawful - the actual moral question of "should we interfere with this planet-ending catastrophe" gets completely skirted, because the crew get sucked in unintentionally, and basically prevent the disaster through dumb luck. Phage has a moderately interesting moral premise - how far would you go to save your race, what awful things would you do - except it only appears in the final 5 minutes. The rest of the episode is tedious fake-science about Neelix's lungs, or tedious fake-science about them tracking down a spaceship. The Cloud is either fake-science or awful Native American mysticism and I gave up halfway through. Eye of the Needle is....almost great. There's a nice sense of frantic hope as the crew try and figure out if they can actually get home. But it's insane to me that they did an episode about people sending a message home and we never see those messages. It seems tailor made for a character heavy plot, but like every other episode we have twice as much faffing around with nonsense as actual plot.
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Jun 21, 2021 10:17
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm 5 episodes into Voyager and uh....is this what it's like for the whole series? It's so loving boring. Voyager is one giant string of decidedly mediocre episodes punctuated by the occasional really incredibly amazing episode but it is definitely the third place finisher in a three-man race between TNG, Deep Space Nine and itself. It gets better eventually, but it takes a while. I would not blame you one bit if you just skipped right to Scorpion, Part I. You'd only be missing like five good episodes, maybe?
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Jun 21, 2021 10:32
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm 5 episodes into Voyager and uh....is this what it's like for the whole series? It's so loving boring. Yes. There a few good episodes each season but it really was a show where there was just no quality control and writers could submit scripts with 10 minutes of plot and 35 minutes of technobabble, so most of the episodes are just the mediocre to outright bad time fillers you describe
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Jun 21, 2021 10:34
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm 5 episodes into Voyager and uh....is this what it's like for the whole series? It's so loving boring. Pretty much. There are 172 hours of Voyager and generously maybe 30 good ones. The good news is that there are maybe only 10 really awful, TNG season one style bad episodes. The rest are just bland Star Trek themed wallpaper for your TV. quote:... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmUTIp9BOs
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Jun 21, 2021 11:11
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Voyager isnt so much about good or bad episodes, its about cultivating an atmosphere where you feel like you are a crewman on the ship, who is witnessing all the chaos and melodrama around them. Turn on, be comfy, and let Captain Janeway guide you to inner peace.
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Jun 21, 2021 11:53
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It always feels on Voyager that it's a fairly likeable, if bland, group of characters given almost nothing to do, with a few exceptions. Whereas on Enterprise you have a group consisting of either total assholes or people with no discernible personality at all, given things to do, but the things are often stupid. In terms of gods, to nobody's surprise I enjoy the Vorta attitude. The Founders aren't omnipotent, they aren't omniscient, but they will always make perfect decisions if given the correct information. It's more like worshipping the Greek gods or something, where you have to deal with their moods and spitefulness. Also the Founders did create the Vorta, as far as we know. I do wonder how much of that obvious myth Weyoun Six tells Odo is rooted in the truth.
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Jun 21, 2021 11:57
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HopperUK posted:It always feels on Voyager that it's a fairly likeable, if bland, group of characters given almost nothing to do, with a few exceptions. Whereas on Enterprise you have a group consisting of either total assholes or people with no discernible personality at all, given things to do, but the things are often stupid. I'd expect the parts about benevolence, and uplifting the primitive Vorta as an expression of gratitude (it was almost certainly done out of either convenience or that the Founders saw usefulness in the Vorta gene pool) were propaganda, but everything else was likely true.
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Jun 21, 2021 12:21
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nine-gear crow posted:I saw a really great piece of fanart the other day that was a family portrait with Sarek, Amanda, Sybok, Spock and Michael and it was basically just "Before things went to poo poo..." Where's Spocko?
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Jun 21, 2021 12:22
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Rascals could have worked better if they'd leaned into it as a comedy episode, but late-TNG has a huge warp nacelle up its own rear end. As a thought experiment I'm wondering if Rascals would be better or worse as a DS9 episode. They definitely had a better handle on comedy, and the characters were better-defined and probably would've given more fuel to that premise. On the other hand it's also very much a "wacky sci-fi thing of the week" episode, which is TNG's specialty. But "One Little Ship" worked, so maybe. Of course, maybe I'm asking the wrong question: it probably would be best of all as a TOS episode.
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Jun 21, 2021 12:41
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A.o.D. posted:I'd expect the parts about benevolence, and uplifting the primitive Vorta as an expression of gratitude (it was almost certainly done out of either convenience or that the Founders saw usefulness in the Vorta gene pool) were propaganda, but everything else was likely true. I feel like the Vorta founding myth that Weyoun tells is probably substantially true within the Trek Mythos. We see how the Dominion enacts collective punishment on planets that defy them, it would be consistent with how the Changelings view the universe that if they encountered a race that seemed naturally inclined to be unconcerned and friendly towards shapeshifters that they would uplift the whole race as a 'reward' (for their purposes).
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Jun 21, 2021 12:49
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Astroman posted:Where's Spocko? A couple of years ago someone edited the picture of Spock's family from Yesteryear to add Sybok and Michael, and then someone else added Spocko but I can't find the later one anymore.
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Jun 21, 2021 13:51
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Happened across this weird piece of star trek memorabilia when looking for some vintage (normal adult person) home decor: https://www.ebth.com/items/12604461-superman-pinch-pleat-drapes-with-star-trek-drapery-panels?ref=hp    Not great, but not as terrible as the Spock helmet, either.
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Jun 21, 2021 14:47
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Astroman posted:
Also the doctor needs to take up the spare seats on the bus because otherwise rosa parks won't be able to object to being mistreated
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Jun 21, 2021 15:16
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Tunicate posted:Also the doctor needs to take up the spare seats on the bus because otherwise rosa parks won't be able to object to being mistreated I'm imagining a bus just full of various incarnations of The Doctor, who all go back in time to that moment in order to pack a bus full and spark a civil rights movement. I have no idea how close that is to what really happens, but lmao
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Jun 21, 2021 15:29
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bennyfactor posted:Happened across this weird piece of star trek memorabilia when looking for some vintage (normal adult person) home decor: Some fairly good avatar material there
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Jun 21, 2021 15:41
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With those character designs, those drapes belong on Memory Gamma.
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Jun 21, 2021 16:43
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Astroman posted:I may be misremembering because I probably watched that one once 30 years ago, but the moral was "this woman is insane." Janice goes about it the wrong way but she is trying to right a wrong and get a chance to command. I agree. I've always thought it was a stretch to take a mentally disturbed woman's word that Starfleet didn't allow female captains. That's not to say that the episode isn't problematic in a lot of ways, of course. Payndz posted:Roddenberry absolutely loved Omega Glory (it was one of his original episode concepts when he pitched the show) and IIRC submitted it for various writing awards. It was his Sixties version of "Spock shot JFK" - the idea he thought was so brilliant he just wouldn't leave it alone despite it being an obvious clunker. IIRC, he wanted Omega Glory to be the pilot of the entire show. I'm almost impressed with how sure he was that it was a winning script. Omega Glory is an episode that has the dubious distinction (along with Code of Honor, which I think is far worse) of being one that nobody likes, as far as I know.
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Jun 21, 2021 16:44
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Brawnfire posted:I'm imagining a bus just full of various incarnations of The Doctor, who all go back in time to that moment in order to pack a bus full and spark a civil rights movement. I have no idea how close that is to what really happens, but lmao One of the doctor's companions, an old white dude, has to sit behind Parks to force this to happen. He starts to object about how horrible that is and how he doesn't want to do it, and gets forcefully told "shut the gently caress up, this isn't about you". It kinda owns. It's also one of the rare times that we see Rosa Parks as someone who was already involved in the civil rights movement and protests, instead of the popular portrayal of her as a Normal Woman who one day decided to Take A Stand. And the time-racist is basically a Proud Boy from the future, so it doesn't really matter that his plan doesn't make a great deal of sense.
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Jun 21, 2021 16:48
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Strom Cuzewon posted:It's also one of the rare times that we see Rosa Parks as someone who was already involved in the civil rights movement and protests, instead of the popular portrayal of her as a Normal Woman who one day decided to Take A Stand.
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Jun 21, 2021 16:53
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The Chris Chibnall years are the Voyager of New Who. Some legit gems like the Rosa Parks episode, but mostly just really middling.
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Jun 21, 2021 16:54
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Astroman posted:Where's Spocko? Wait, just how many kids did Sarek have, anyway?
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Jun 21, 2021 17:36
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HD DAD posted:The Chris Chibnall years are the Voyager of New Who. Some legit gems like the Rosa Parks episode, but mostly just really middling. Chinball's first season was way better than people give it credit for. shame about the 2nd season but the Master is amazing in that season. What I am saying is that Voyager wishes it was that good consistently.
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Jun 21, 2021 17:43
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Page 2161; happy Federation Day! In celebration, twos, sixes and aces will be wild until the end of the page.
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Jun 21, 2021 17:48
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I agree. I've always thought it was a stretch to take a mentally disturbed woman's word that Starfleet didn't allow female captains. That's not to say that the episode isn't problematic in a lot of ways, of course. I took the plunge and looked it up on wikipedia and the first sentence I read was this one quote:During a ceremony to celebrate the Yang victory, Kirk and Spock, discussing the Yang culture, connect the names Yang and Kohm with "Yankee" and "Communist" and laughed so hard I woke up my girlfriend. This sounds like poo poo. edit Holy poo poo this is the constitution episode? loving laffo Anyway I came here to say that I'm continuing through ds9 s2 and the premiere should not have been a three parter. Don't do three part episodes on TV. Don't do it. Bad.
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Jun 21, 2021 17:53
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I agree. I've always thought it was a stretch to take a mentally disturbed woman's word that Starfleet didn't allow female captains. That's not to say that the episode isn't problematic in a lot of ways, of course. I think it’s implicit in the premise of the episode that she’s telling the truth about that. If she isn’t, why doesn’t Kirk just say, “but we do have female captains though”. What he actually says in response to the infamous “your world of starship captains doesn’t admit women” line is pretty much, “yeah it doesn’t, and I think that sucks, but that’s what it is”. There are a lot of, at best, interesting assumptions behind Turnabout Intruder. The fundamental point of the episode is that what makes you fit for command isn’t your bodily attributes but your soul. But otoh if you’re a woman and you want a position of power and responsibility, you might just be hysterical, murderous, automisogynistic, or otherwise generally certifiable. The obvious fixup for this episode would have been to have a woman officer figure poo poo out, take command and save the day. Instead they just have literally every other member of the bridge crew do it. Guess Nichelle Nichols was busy that week
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Jun 21, 2021 18:10
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skasion posted:I think it’s implicit in the premise of the episode that she’s telling the truth about that. If she isn’t, why doesn’t Kirk just say, “but we do have female captains though”. What he actually says in response to the infamous “your world of starship captains doesn’t admit women” line is pretty much, “yeah it doesn’t, and I think that sucks, but that’s what it is”. I don't remember which Youtuber it was who brought this up - maybe TrekCulture? - but it could be that when Janice said "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women", she could have been talking specifically about Kirk's life. Throughout all of the series and movies, Kirk actually lives a somewhat lonely life, despite his reputation as a womanizer. The closest he ever came to a "real" relationship was Carol Marcus, and although we don't know what happened after Search For Spock, I would guess that Carol blamed Kirk for David's death and killed any chance of reconciliation between them. But I agree with you: the episode plays very strongly into the "hysterical woman" trope and (iirc) pretty much comes right out and says Kirk (as Janice) is physically too weak to assert himself as captain. I'm just not sure I buy that Starfleet didn't admit woman at that time.
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Jun 21, 2021 18:21
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Maybe a decade later (in the timeline) there is a black woman commanding the Saratoga in The Voyage Home so it’s probably not the case that no women were captains at the time of the episode.
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Jun 21, 2021 18:40
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Some fan film I saw retconned it that women were promoted to Captain and admiral, just not put in charge of starships because of diplomatic sensitivities regarding the Tellarites.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:05
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I don't remember which Youtuber it was who brought this up - maybe TrekCulture? - but it could be that when Janice said "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women", she could have been talking specifically about Kirk's life. Throughout all of the series and movies, Kirk actually lives a somewhat lonely life, despite his reputation as a womanizer. The closest he ever came to a "real" relationship was Carol Marcus, and although we don't know what happened after Search For Spock, I would guess that Carol blamed Kirk for David's death and killed any chance of reconciliation between them. yeah but have you seen the number of times Kirk has his shirt ripped or cut, exposing his chest?
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Jun 21, 2021 19:09
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Probably because I've only been watching the highest rated voyager episodes, but Janeway is a great captain. Shes daring, much warmer than Picard or sisko to her crew, practical. Gonna keep watching the good eps and never tarnish my image of her
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Jun 21, 2021 19:20
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I mean if we want to bring it into continuity then maybe some of these alternate interpretations are worth looking at, but the episode itself as a piece of media is a sexist piece of poo poo and it annoys me to see folk trying to say maybe it isn't so bad. It's poo poo. gently caress that episode and its disgusting misogyny.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:22
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:Omega Glory is an episode that has the dubious distinction (along with Code of Honor, which I think is far worse) of being one that nobody likes, as far as I know. I like Omega Glory! Kirk screaming the Constitution to a caveman makes me smile.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:22
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Terror Sweat posted:Probably because I've only been watching the highest rated voyager episodes, but Janeway is a great captain. Shes daring, much warmer than Picard or sisko to her crew, practical. Gonna keep watching the good eps and never tarnish my image of her When Janeway is good, she's incredible.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:22
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Terror Sweat posted:Probably because I've only been watching the highest rated voyager episodes, but Janeway is a great captain. Shes daring, much warmer than Picard or sisko to her crew, practical. Gonna keep watching the good eps and never tarnish my image of her Some of the best episodes are evil Janeway though...
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Jun 21, 2021 19:26
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HopperUK posted:I mean if we want to bring it into continuity then maybe some of these alternate interpretations are worth looking at, but the episode itself as a piece of media is a sexist piece of poo poo and it annoys me to see folk trying to say maybe it isn't so bad. It's poo poo. gently caress that episode and its disgusting misogyny. Thank you king but I think the tenor of this discussion was more "What were the writers/actors trying to accomplish in this trainwreck?" and less "Should we approve of sexism in media?"
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Jun 21, 2021 19:30
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F_Shit_Fitzgerald posted:I don't remember which Youtuber it was who brought this up - maybe TrekCulture? - but it could be that when Janice said "Your world of starship captains doesn't admit women", she could have been talking specifically about Kirk's life. Throughout all of the series and movies, Kirk actually lives a somewhat lonely life, despite his reputation as a womanizer. The closest he ever came to a "real" relationship was Carol Marcus, and although we don't know what happened after Search For Spock, I would guess that Carol blamed Kirk for David's death and killed any chance of reconciliation between them. Yes, she is clearly talking about Kirk’s emotional life at least as much as about fleet policy. And this is not the first time we have met a woman whom Kirk abandoned for his higher calling. The most obvious other example being Lieutenant Shaw in “Court Martial”. But I still think Kirk’s response makes it clear whoever wrote this crappy episode figured there were no woman captains of starships, and this assumption is borne out in the rest of the series—the only counterexample being the Romulan commander in “Enterprise Incident” who is 1) foreign and therefore weird, and 2) a horny buffoon not much more competent than Lester. It’s not that Starfleet doesn’t admit women at all, since the fleet was the context of Lester and Kirk’s prior relationship (and witness Uhura, Shaw, various other lieutenants of the week). And of course they have a whole system of assigning captains female yeomen for clerical and administrative duties, pretty obviously inspired by WAVES. But, as there was in the real military at that time, I think we are supposed to assume a (non-glass) ceiling on women’s rank that prevents them from reaching the most senior and responsible positions. Now that I look it up, Trek was actually airing right around the time these legal restrictions were lifted, allowing women to reach flag rank…but then no woman commanded a USN station or ship until 1990.
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Jun 21, 2021 19:41
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multijoe posted:Some of the best episodes are evil Janeway though... Which ones? Other than the future museum one
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Jun 21, 2021 20:02
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