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Snow Cone Capone posted:no clue, someone I follow retweeted it but it literally made me do a double-take
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Jul 2, 2021 03:23
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Just finished DS9 season six. I absolutely love when Dukat is on that anime villain poo poo. And if I didn't already know Jadzia dies, the death flags in this episode would absolutely have me expecting it. A lot of tremendous episodes this season, and some real clunkers. That's Trek I guess.
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Jul 2, 2021 08:00
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Bullbar posted:Just finished DS9 season six. I absolutely love when Dukat is on that anime villain poo poo. You're in luck, my friend
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Jul 2, 2021 16:03
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Nessus posted:Yeah I'm not sure where that poo poo came from. There is literally an episode where a Ferengi quotes Marx. You can argue, probably accurately, that it isn't ~properly revolutionary~ but "neocon" seems pretty iffy. Maybe they only know about Pale Moonlight? Now now, if DS9 weren't right wing, it would have some kind of huge storyline where a far-right authoritarian state tears itself apart precisely because of its authoritarianism, and I bet you can't show me one of *those*. QED.
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Jul 2, 2021 22:22
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As I recall, there was a TNG episode that said the Federation didn't do anything about the Cardassians on Bajor because of the Prime Directive. But then in the Voyager episode False Profits, the Voyager crew intervene to stop a pair of Ferengi con-artists from masquerading as gods to a primitive people. Shouldn't the same Prime Directive argument have applied there too?
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Jul 2, 2021 22:52
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Kurzon posted:As I recall, there was a TNG episode that said the Federation didn't do anything about the Cardassians on Bajor because of the Prime Directive. But then in the Voyager episode False Profits, the Voyager crew intervene to stop a pair of Ferengi con-artists from masquerading as gods to a primitive people. Shouldn't the same Prime Directive argument have applied there too? It's never consistent, the prime directive just means whatever for that episode.
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Jul 2, 2021 22:55
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Kurzon posted:As I recall, there was a TNG episode that said the Federation didn't do anything about the Cardassians on Bajor because of the Prime Directive. But then in the Voyager episode False Profits, the Voyager crew intervene to stop a pair of Ferengi con-artists from masquerading as gods to a primitive people. Shouldn't the same Prime Directive argument have applied there too? I just rewatched those episodes the other day whilst struggling to survive Heat Hell. The other reason the Federation didn't do poo poo about Bajor and the Bajoran diaspora colonies cross the Alpha Quadrant was because it would start a full scale war with Cardassia that would probably end with all or most of the Bajorans dead if people like Gul Dukat got their way. A couple of Ferengi in the Delta Quadrant are just a couple of Ferengi in the Delta Quadrant, and Janeway bitchslaps stuff like that on her way to deal with real problems.
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Jul 2, 2021 22:57
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Kurzon posted:As I recall, there was a TNG episode that said the Federation didn't do anything about the Cardassians on Bajor because of the Prime Directive. But then in the Voyager episode False Profits, the Voyager crew intervene to stop a pair of Ferengi con-artists from masquerading as gods to a primitive people. Shouldn't the same Prime Directive argument have applied there too? TNG Prime Directive writing is MONUMENTALLY STUPID that's why.
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Jul 2, 2021 23:02
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nine-gear crow posted:I just rewatched those episodes the other day whilst struggling to survive Heat Hell. The other reason the Federation didn't do poo poo about Bajor and the Bajoran diaspora colonies cross the Alpha Quadrant was because it would start a full scale war with Cardassia that would probably end with all or most of the Bajorans dead if people like Gul Dukat got their way. A couple of Ferengi in the Delta Quadrant are just a couple of Ferengi in the Delta Quadrant, and Janeway bitchslaps stuff like that on her way to deal with real problems.
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Jul 2, 2021 23:51
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Kurzon posted:As I recall, there was a TNG episode that said the Federation didn't do anything about the Cardassians on Bajor because of the Prime Directive. But then in the Voyager episode False Profits, the Voyager crew intervene to stop a pair of Ferengi con-artists from masquerading as gods to a primitive people. Shouldn't the same Prime Directive argument have applied there too? Apples to oranges. One is an interstellar diplomatic incident that could precipitate a war; the other is an act the Ferengi government would simply disavow if pressed. To use a real-world analogy, the FBI would (has) arrested Russian ransomware criminals traveling (and perhaps doing crimes) in third countries such as the Maldives. I'm thinking specifically of Roman Seleznev, who is currently spending three decades in the maximum security no-fun zone after being arrested and extradited to the United States while on holiday. He even had massive political air cover; he's the son of a member of the Duma, the Russian parliament. However the United States is not willing to intercede militarily following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, in part because the US military is already vastly overstretched, and in part because that would risk rapid escalation to nuclear war. Starfleet likely holds similar considerations with respect to the Cardassian invasion of Bajor. The Prime Directive is being asked to do some serious work on the Cardassian Union's behalf, but if you look at it as "we're not going to get involved between these two sovereign nations because it would start an interstellar war", it does fall under a rubric of noninterference.
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Jul 2, 2021 23:56
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The Prime Directive is a drat mess but I thought it mostly applied to non-warp civilisations anyway. Like, don't gently caress around with people just because you can or feel like it'd be a good idea because it'll mess with who they are and is a good way to do a genocide.
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Jul 2, 2021 23:58
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HopperUK posted:The Prime Directive is a drat mess but I thought it mostly applied to non-warp civilisations anyway. Like, don't gently caress around with people just because you can or feel like it'd be a good idea because it'll mess with who they are and is a good way to do a genocide. Yeah, the two core tenets of the Prime Directive are 1) don't interfere with pre-warp, planet-bound civilzations (ie: no uplifting, no covert cultural engineering, no stepping in to save them from a disaster they can't fix or survive themselves, ect) and 2) don't interfere in the internal affairs of another sovereign galactic state... unless those internal affairs reach out and interfere with you directly. It's a good working theory, but taking it as 100% gospel all the time can lead to more harm than good.
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Jul 3, 2021 00:19
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nine-gear crow posted:Yeah, the two core tenets of the Prime Directive are 1) don't interfere with pre-warp, planet-bound civilzations (ie: no uplifting, no covert cultural engineering, no stepping in to save them from a disaster they can't fix or survive themselves, ect) and 2) don't interfere in the internal affairs of another sovereign galactic state... unless those internal affairs reach out and interfere with you directly. Even point 1 I think is a bit callous of the Federation on the last point. The whole Pen Pal episode was stupid and letting Worf's brother's civilization die because iT's FaTe seems so off in a way I can't describe. Arrogant? That the Federation decides what civilizations die and live because of random luck.
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Jul 3, 2021 00:39
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Kurzon posted:But then in the Voyager episode False Profits, the Voyager crew intervene to stop a pair of Ferengi con-artists from masquerading as gods to a primitive people. Been doing a TNG rewatch and nearly spit out my drink when I realized that Voyager ep was continuing the story of a s3 TNG episode.
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Jul 3, 2021 01:30
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Der Luftwaffle posted:Been doing a TNG rewatch and nearly spit out my drink when I realized that Voyager ep was continuing the story of a s3 TNG episode. Don't worry like most of voyager it wasn't that good and not resolved with any satisfaction. Kind of a long grinding slog that voyager is.
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Jul 3, 2021 01:37
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nine-gear crow posted:I just rewatched those episodes the other day whilst struggling to survive Heat Hell. The other reason the Federation didn't do poo poo about Bajor and the Bajoran diaspora colonies cross the Alpha Quadrant was because it would start a full scale war with Cardassia that would probably end with all or most of the Bajorans dead if people like Gul Dukat got their way. A couple of Ferengi in the Delta Quadrant are just a couple of Ferengi in the Delta Quadrant, and Janeway bitchslaps stuff like that on her way to deal with real problems. This is a valid reason but it has nothing to do with the Prime Directive.
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Jul 3, 2021 02:00
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The DQ culture was already contaminated by the Ferengi, the fact that they were even trying to let them down easy by cajoling the Ferengi into leaving instead of just going "hey assholes, we caught you and we're beaming you out of there" was the Prime Directive concern.
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Jul 3, 2021 02:28
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Really the Bajor/Cardassia situation in the TNG episode is an actual good invocation of the Prime Directive. An actual, obvious conflict exists: the plight of the Bajoran colonists vs. a large and costly war. The Prime Directive is something they can apply to that conflict as a guide to resolve it. In Dumb Prime Directive episodes, the directive itself is what causes the conflict. For example, we could step in and save this species from dying, with basically no downside -- but wait! Prime Directive!
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Jul 3, 2021 02:29
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I really hate the end of that episode, because they have to very quickly tie things up so that Voyager can't use the Barzan Wormhole to get back. So the Ferengi who have been captured by Voyager and are being escorted by multiple armed security officers manage to overpower them offscreen, break into the shuttle bay, steal back their ship, and get through the wormhole just before it closes. This is all in like 3 minutes.
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Jul 3, 2021 02:30
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Also there's no "could've started a war" or anything about it. The Feds had a war with Cardassia and they sure didn't win. After that, they put down a border zone, declared anything past the border to be the Cardassians' problem and that no Federation citizens should muck around in it, and left things there. The Federation may be big and powerful, but it's not all-powerful, and they're definitely not everywhere at all times. That's why the whole premise of the show is that there are ships zooming around through the infinite unknown inky blackness just looking at stuff. There's a lot out there beyond the Federation's reach, knowledge, or ability.
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Jul 3, 2021 02:59
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Sir Lemming posted:Really the Bajor/Cardassia situation in the TNG episode is an actual good invocation of the Prime Directive. An actual, obvious conflict exists: the plight of the Bajoran colonists vs. a large and costly war. The Prime Directive is something they can apply to that conflict as a guide to resolve it. It's one of the things that actually works well in the otherwise lousy Star Trek Into Darkness. The opening mission is to save a nascent Stone Age civilization by preventing the eruption of a volcano that would wipe them out, and that's perfectly fine - they just have to do it without being noticed, because that's the part that will influence the development of the society they're saving. And Kirk knowingly and deliberately breaks that order. It's a very contrived situation from a script standpoint, but it works as an application of the Prime Directive much better than some other takes.
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Jul 3, 2021 03:07
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Lemniscate Blue posted:It's one of the things that actually works well in the otherwise lousy Star Trek Into Darkness. The opening mission is to save a nascent Stone Age civilization by preventing the eruption of a volcano that would wipe them out, and that's perfectly fine - they just have to do it without being noticed, because that's the part that will influence the development of the society they're saving. And Kirk knowingly and deliberately breaks that order. It’s also a good part of the Discovery pilot. It’s a lot more of a deliberately overt action but they do everything they need to do to dress it up in ambiguity. All the people in that village ever saw was two figures walking up to their well, doing something, and then the water came back. You saved some people, good job Starfleet.
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Jul 3, 2021 04:43
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Lemniscate Blue posted:It's one of the things that actually works well in the otherwise lousy Star Trek Into Darkness. The opening mission is to save a nascent Stone Age civilization by preventing the eruption of a volcano that would wipe them out, and that's perfectly fine - they just have to do it without being noticed, because that's the part that will influence the development of the society they're saving. And Kirk knowingly and deliberately breaks that order. That's such a good sequence that I choose to believe it also happened in the Prime Timeline, bar the nonsense about hiding the Enterprise underwater. Wouldn't be surprised if Simon Pegg ad libbed the line about how stupid an idea that was. So in the 23rd century they weren't as strict with the Prime Directive, as seen by that and the first scenes of Discovery. But situations like the natives seeing them and being influenced led to larger consequences than if that local population had died, leading to the stricter 24th century version.
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Jul 3, 2021 06:24
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Janeway also says on multiple occasions, that the prime directive can go gently caress itself since they're all alone in the delta quadrant.
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Jul 3, 2021 09:10
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Lemniscate Blue posted:It's one of the things that actually works well in the otherwise lousy Star Trek Into Darkness. The opening mission is to save a nascent Stone Age civilization by preventing the eruption of a volcano that would wipe them out, and that's perfectly fine - they just have to do it without being noticed, because that's the part that will influence the development of the society they're saving. And Kirk knowingly and deliberately breaks that order. Nah, Pike is pissed off that they even tried to save the species, let alone that they got spotted.
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Jul 3, 2021 09:19
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thotsky posted:Janeway also says on multiple occasions, that the prime directive can go gently caress itself since they're all alone in the delta quadrant. Given that the very presence of Voyager has alread massively upset the balance of power in the quadrant I'm assuming that they'll eventualyl realise that they're so loving beyond the Prime Directive and come up with a new way to guide themselves? Right? Right?!?!? Rather than slog my way through the endless drudgery of Voyager, I've basically been following this roadmap https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/star-trek-voyager-an-episode-roadmap/ with a few extra episodes that look interesting. Thoughts so far: S1: Prime Factors:A reverse Prime Directive episode - an advanced alien race refuses to to give Voyager technology. Has some really fun moments, and has hints of a much better episode inside it. I like all the philosophical back and forth between the crew, I like how the Maquis immediately leap to trying to steal the technology, and I love that it's Tuvok who actually goes through with it, because Vulcan logic doesn't always mean being nice and proper. And his final scene with Janeway as she laments how their morality is slowly being chipped away is great. It was an absolute cop-out that the alien they were negotiating with was just playing them for fools and never had any intention of giving them the techonology though. Completely undercut all the Prime Directive discussions from earlier. State of Flux: There's a spy on board! Not Tuvok, we know about him, but a different spy. Another episode of the crew tragically clinging to the Prime Directive long after its been smashed to pieces. The plot was pretty straightforward, but I liked Chakotay's scenes with Tuvok, and how he's actually starting to trust and befriend this dude who spent months spying on him. I really want to see the Maquis' attitude to Tuvok explored more, but I doubt that's gonna happen. The scene where Chakotay ends up complicit in the theft of food and has to punish himself was quite fun, but did kind of show what a massive square he is. I can see Sisko or maybe even Riker doing the same thing, but they would both eat the drat soup afterwards. Learning Curve: The Maquis are being rowdy and undisciplined, so its time for boot-camp, with Tuvok continuing to be a humourless (and racially insensitive, he makes a Bajoran take off his earring ffs) bastard. Again this feels like another episode that promises more of a cultural change on the ship than I think we're going to get - we see Maquis becoming more Starfleet, and Tuvok becoming more Maquis. It kind of fails to explore how and why the Maquis are different though - the inciting incident is a Maquis engineer taking the initiative to fix a problem without going through the proper channels, but for the rest of the episode they act like a bunch of sulky teenagers. The side-plot of a weird infection in the ships bio-circuitry is just loving bizarre, and almost feels like it's supposed to be a comedic aside to the main plot ("get the cheese to sickbay") until it suddenly turns out to be very serious indeed. I'd like to highlight the worst example of treknobabble I've seen so far: quote:JANEWAY: If we wanted to superheat the gel pack system, to raise it's temperature, so to speak, how could we do it? This is an awful lot of words for "put her in nuetral and rev the engine". What the gently caress does any of Janeway's stuff even mean? Dear god. I did really enjoy the opening scene of Janeway playing through Turn Of The Screw and getting completely dunked on by a pair of children. Hints at a sillier, less serious Janeway than we've seen so far.
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Jul 3, 2021 09:46
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They really made a big deal out of the bio-neural gel packs in early Voyager, and I always assumed they were building to an episode where the ship became alive or developed consciousness or something - but they never did anything with it. I don't know if there was a dropped plot that they were building towards, or if it was just something like saucer separation where they came up with a new feature for the ship, hyped it up, then realised it didn't really ever contribute anything to a story.
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Jul 3, 2021 10:44
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the thing with time travel in star trek, and a lot of stories, is they also do stuff which says that there are different timelines instead of just one, right? like that episode with the million enterprises converging and one is from where the borg has destroyed the federation. so it means that it doesn't matter what you do in a situation because in another timeline, the other choice was made and it rippled out from there infinitely. which also means that trying to preserve the timeline is an immediately ridiculous concept because in infinite other timelines, you didn't, and it wouldn't matter if you did because in another one, you didn't. everything happens and nothing is irreversible or inescapable. the only way you can do it in something like star trek is just have it so that no friendly species is remotely capable of manipulating time, nobody understands how to do it, because there's no good reason not to gently caress around with it or skip out on timelines not to your liking. then you can still have your space anomaly time warp episodes that begin and end inexplicably and not do a bunch of we have to preserve the timeline stuff. roomtone fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Jul 3, 2021 |
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Jul 3, 2021 10:44
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Alchenar posted:Nah, Pike is pissed off that they even tried to save the species, let alone that they got spotted. Well I'm not going to watch it again to clarify, so 
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Jul 3, 2021 13:10
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roomtone posted:the thing with time travel in star trek, and a lot of stories, is they also do stuff which says that there are different timelines instead of just one, right? like that episode with the million enterprises converging and one is from where the borg has destroyed the federation. Well it really does matter to you, personally, if you screw up your own timeline and especially so if you can't fix it or find your way back to your proper timeline a la Sliders.
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Jul 3, 2021 13:34
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The federation are cowards, covert cultural engineering all the way, baby
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Jul 3, 2021 16:37
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Ridiculous, but it's fun imagining Avery Brooks reciting all of W's dumb lines.
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Jul 3, 2021 16:51
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Angry Salami posted:They really made a big deal out of the bio-neural gel packs in early Voyager, and I always assumed they were building to an episode where the ship became alive or developed consciousness or something - but they never did anything with it. I don't know if there was a dropped plot that they were building towards, or if it was just something like saucer separation where they came up with a new feature for the ship, hyped it up, then realised it didn't really ever contribute anything to a story.
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Jul 3, 2021 17:13
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Animal-Mother posted:Ridiculous, but it's fun imagining Avery Brooks reciting all of W's dumb lines. The closest thing to this take is Kira being a chud and falling in love with a cop lol
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Jul 3, 2021 17:20
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Angry Salami posted:They really made a big deal out of the bio-neural gel packs in early Voyager, and I always assumed they were building to an episode where the ship became alive or developed consciousness or something - but they never did anything with it. I don't know if there was a dropped plot that they were building towards, or if it was just something like saucer separation where they came up with a new feature for the ship, hyped it up, then realised it didn't really ever contribute anything to a story. Its been a long time since i've watched any voyager, but I thought I remembered the reason being that they couldn't just make new ones or something like they could with manufactured parts, so it set up the ship to have some limited supply of parts to go with being trapped alone. I could be completely imagining that though.
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Jul 3, 2021 17:44
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Yes the gel packs can't be replicated
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Jul 3, 2021 17:45
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Angry Salami posted:They really made a big deal out of the bio-neural gel packs in early Voyager, and I always assumed they were building to an episode where the ship became alive or developed consciousness or something - but they never did anything with it. I don't know if there was a dropped plot that they were building towards, or if it was just something like saucer separation where they came up with a new feature for the ship, hyped it up, then realised it didn't really ever contribute anything to a story. Yeah, I noticed this the last time I tried to watch Voyager. Not only do they never build to anything, but they never even seem to give Voyager any function that the Enterprise or Defiant or whatever didn’t have. The only time you really hear about them is when they get hosed up by cheese or whatever
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Jul 3, 2021 17:54
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:The federation are cowards, covert cultural engineering all the way, baby
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Jul 3, 2021 18:48
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Tom Guycot posted:Its been a long time since i've watched any voyager, but I thought I remembered the reason being that they couldn't just make new ones or something like they could with manufactured parts, so it set up the ship to have some limited supply of parts to go with being trapped alone. Which would have been interesting if Voyager had gone the whole Battlestar Galactica/Stargate Atlantis route of "stranded with dwindling supplies and resources" route. But they didn't.
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Jul 3, 2021 18:52
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The problem with star trek is you have magic engineers and the tech is so plentiful and easy to get that you really do need a Borg invasion to get them in dire straits . Voyager wanted to have its futuristic cake and eat it too. Meanwhile andromeda was easily better at being "high tech ship with limited supplies looking for allies."
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Jul 3, 2021 19:02
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