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Ellie should have launched a nuke at Abby and should have ridden the nuke while wearing a cowboy hat. The game should have been in black and white too.
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Jul 7, 2021 19:06
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Oxxidation posted:oh boy if there's one guy whose 2lou opinions i wanted to hear it's bloodysabbath, SA's most famous woman-hater People sure get weirdly defensive about this game, don’t they? Stupid rear end ad hominem aside, I can almost see where you’re coming in from given the way discourse around this game goes sometimes, but none of what I’ve written has anything to do with poo poo like “lol Abby isn’t hot” or whatever strawmen you’ve got in your precious mind. For me, it really is an issue of pacing and also basic narrative payoffs that don’t completely betray everything we know about a character in a hack’s misguided attempt to sUbVeRt eXpEcTaTioNs. That said I’m firmly in the “TLOU did not need a direct sequel” camp. (Also, I’m not entirely sure “causes irrational levels of rage in those who post more in QCS than regular forums” counts as fame, but it’s nice to be recognized I guess.)
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Jul 7, 2021 20:03
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I liked Abby enough, although the brutality of the execution scene paints her in a bad light and this is coming from someone who despises Joel. No one deserves to get tortured like that. That being said, I like playing as Ellie more because she get cooler weapons faster stealth kills. I was so annoyed that they put back the slow choke for Abby from Tlou1.
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Jul 7, 2021 20:16
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the game is trash and the ideas the guy suggested would somehow make it worse. i cant believe people still talk about it. Die.
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Jul 7, 2021 20:17
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ArfJason posted:the game is trash and the ideas the guy suggested would somehow make it worse. i cant believe people still talk about it. Die. You seem like a real well rounded guy.
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Jul 7, 2021 21:09
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ArfJason is a terminal gimmick poster whose gimmick is not ever, even one time, being funny. Just stick them on ignore, their posts are 100% white noise trollbait.
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Jul 7, 2021 21:38
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I've hit that point in my life where I value sincerity over the relentless layering of irony and 'too cool to care' cynicism over everything. To be more direct: I'd rather people post about things they like and why they enjoy that rather than going 'this sucks' Obviously that doesn't apply to real problems like you having to abandon your house because a tropical storm or wildfire is moving across your state but the loudness of idiots on the internet* is radicalizing me into just preferring people talking about having a good time about things for once. *Take Smash Bros character reveals, basically everything happening with Star Wars and She-ra/He Man as examples.
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Jul 7, 2021 21:44
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Everything about TLOU2 was because Druckmann said how when seeing film of Nazis and collaborators getting hung/attacked went "wow, harsh, maybe they deserve a second chance" and though that ~enlightened~ perspective would make the game high art.
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Jul 7, 2021 21:46
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No game is going to appeal to everyone, some people have criticisms of TLOU2 that I may not agree with. For some people it might just not be their thing. Fair enough. I'm not directing this at anyone for not liking the game as much as me or even not liking the game at all. But it will never not be amazing to me how unbelievably stupid most of the people who like, really dislike this game are.
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Jul 7, 2021 22:09
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pentyne posted:Everything about TLOU2 was because Druckmann said how when seeing film of Nazis and collaborators getting hung/attacked went "wow, harsh, maybe they deserve a second chance" and though that ~enlightened~ perspective would make the game high art. Yep, that sure is exactly what happened, you are the reality understander. Good job!
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Jul 7, 2021 22:10
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Druckmann was in the closet making concepts and I saw one of the concepts and the concept looked at me
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Jul 7, 2021 22:12
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pentyne posted:Everything about TLOU2 was because Druckmann said how when seeing film of Nazis and collaborators getting hung/attacked went "wow, harsh, maybe they deserve a second chance" and though that ~enlightened~ perspective would make the game high art. Yeah I'm glad that the person who killed the war criminal (Joel) got the appreciation she deserved
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Jul 7, 2021 23:45
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It is never not amazing to me how TLOU1 basically spends its entire running time going "Joel is in fact a really horrible broken person who is fully aware he is a horrible broken person and openly admits to doing horrific things including torture and murdering people as a bandit" and then get somehow shocked when Joel's entire long history of being a remarkably terrible person comes back to bite him in the rear end. Both from a moral perspective and from a writing perspective there's zero reason why Joel's ending should be "and then he lived happily ever after with zero consequences for his actions." Especially because people act like Joel is 'too good' for the sad awful death he got when we're talking about the same guy who cheerfully beat a chained up guy to death with a pipe in the first game. And I'd empathize with people not liking the story itself if the vast majority of complaints didn't boil down to "I am upset that the character I played as in a video game got the exact same kind of death he dealt out to other people" as if that inevitable tragic death wasn't part of both post-apocalyptic and cowboy stories which The Last of Us borrows from heavily. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 7, 2021 23:58
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Oxxidation posted:oh boy if there's one guy whose 2lou opinions i wanted to hear it's bloodysabbath, SA's most famous woman-hater Third, you forgot Lowtax. TLOU2 indeed bad tho
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Jul 8, 2021 01:02
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2LOU pr good, it makes dull people get freaky mad
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Jul 8, 2021 03:13
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ImpAtom posted:It is never not amazing to me how TLOU1 basically spends its entire running time going "Joel is in fact a really horrible broken person who is fully aware he is a horrible broken person and openly admits to doing horrific things including torture and murdering people as a bandit" and then get somehow shocked when Joel's entire long history of being a remarkably terrible person comes back to bite him in the rear end. I'll be honest, at some point playing this game I just worked myself up into a frenzy and started frothing at the mouth so I completely blanked on what the game was actually about and just invented this whole thing about PTSD and all the therapists being the first to be eaten and thus we have a world where no one knows how to process their emotions in a healthy way. Soooo, what was going on here? Like I remember the first game not having a comically large scroll of all of Joel's sins over the last few decades so it went over everyone's heads that he was kind of Brad Armstrong but not bald. Just wanted to clarify that I had a lot of fun and wasn't going into it expecting it to be a transcendent experience that would elevate me to another realm of delight with every mechanic which seems to be the deciding factor in whether you think it's mocking you at every turn. RareAcumen fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 12:14
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ImpAtom posted:It is never not amazing to me how TLOU1 basically spends its entire running time going "Joel is in fact a really horrible broken person who is fully aware he is a horrible broken person and openly admits to doing horrific things including torture and murdering people as a bandit" and then get somehow shocked when Joel's entire long history of being a remarkably terrible person comes back to bite him in the rear end. The entirety of TLOU1 isn't about Joel being a horrible person. he is definitely broken and has done some bad poo poo, but it's certainly not framed like he is outside of the norm or the ultimate goal of the story. And all of that is there to service a story about him finding his humanity again. So it's totally understandable that people love Joel and were really mad when he took a putter to the head. And even if logically he would have some enemies out there, I don't think it's meant to be read as Joel "getting whats coming to him" at all. I feel like that's a super strange take. Killing off Joel is meant to make you furious and light a fire under your rear end, because you love Joel. it's also the turning point where the game is telling you "no this is not just a nice little continuation of TLOU 1, you are about to see some poo poo" E: think I stole the see some poo poo line from a certain youtuber but it's spot on veni veni veni fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jul 8, 2021 |
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Jul 8, 2021 19:51
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There'd be less issue if it wasn't framed as some sort of lovely gotcha against the player by tying Abby to those dipshit fireflies and their idiot doctor, to most players that's probably only a rank or two above "uhhhh I'm the uh cannibal guy's daughter and uh hrmmm revenge now????" I doubt there'd be near as much resentment if they just tied the Abby character to Joel's unexplored dirtbag past and made an interesting story instead
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Jul 8, 2021 20:24
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The doctor was the most memorable kill from the first game. I 100% agree with the direction they went in.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:28
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I'm not gonna get into a fight here but I actively like TLOU 1 less every time someone insists it's about Joel "finding his humanity again," it's just the most boring possible read of that story
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Jul 8, 2021 20:28
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How on earth is it not about that? and how is that boring? I'm legit curious as to why you feel that way. I won't be mean to you about it.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:33
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veni veni veni posted:How on earth is it not about that? and how is that boring? I'm legit curious as to why you feel that way. I won't be mean to you about it. I don't believe you, because we've done this before It's extremely cliched, I'll leave it at that
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Jul 8, 2021 20:34
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So no good reason then, got it.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:35
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veni veni veni posted:So no good reason then, got it. Wow, didn't take long at all for you to prove you were lying
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Jul 8, 2021 20:37
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Jul 8, 2021 20:41
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Arist posted:Wow, didn't take long at all for you to prove you were lying I just don't get why you thought that was even worth posting if you are going to throw shade on other peoples take on the game and give zero explanation why outside of some broad, vaguely insulting post that ultimately says absolutely nothing. I generally treat well thought out arguments with the respect they deserve regardless of how I feel about them. If you are wondering why I have a tendency to be sort of mean to you, it's because you do stuff like this all the time. Just passive aggressive no content posting, and then you can't take it at all when people dish it out back at you.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:45
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Ha, nice r/relationships sketch guys, really convincing work
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Jul 8, 2021 20:56
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Hahaha I know, I know.
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Jul 8, 2021 20:57
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I really just wanted to vent a frustration without getting pulled into an incredibly stupid argument I've been having off-and-on for several years, but whatever. Fine. The game just isn't a hero story and that read tries to awkwardly staple one onto it. The game is about loss, grief, and how far one will go to avoid losing again. Treating Joel as some big hero "rediscovering his humanity" strips all the nuance and complexity from the ending and I've always hated it.
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Jul 8, 2021 21:08
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I don't even disagree with that, but I don't think him "rediscovering his humanity" is at odds with any of that either. Maybe it's an over simplification of a game with some complex themes, but that's certainly something that culminates by the end. And this is really driven home in the early hours of TLOU 2 when the game shows what a different person he has become. It's not even about him being a hero, it's about him turning into less of a husk of a person. And it's not the only theme of the game, but it's one of the bigger ones. Obviously it's more complicated than that with the lie at the end etc.
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Jul 8, 2021 21:26
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Arist posted:I really just wanted to vent a frustration without getting pulled into an incredibly stupid argument I've been having off-and-on for several years, but whatever. Fine. The game just isn't a hero story and that read tries to awkwardly staple one onto it. The game is about loss, grief, and how far one will go to avoid losing again. Treating Joel as some big hero "rediscovering his humanity" strips all the nuance and complexity from the ending and I've always hated it. Seems like you're letting fandom rule your life a bit too much. It came off like someone just wanting to discuss a theme or motive. Something. I dunno, I missed everything that happened in this game aside from people constantly killing each other and also everyone but Ellie, Joel, and Abby being absolutely poo poo at fighting zombies somehow. Looking into meaning for games is way above my head, I just like when the cyclops BreakDancers and kicks people in the nuts.
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Jul 9, 2021 04:01
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veni veni veni posted:The entirety of TLOU1 isn't about Joel being a horrible person. he is definitely broken and has done some bad poo poo, but it's certainly not framed like he is outside of the norm or the ultimate goal of the story. And all of that is there to service a story about him finding his humanity again. There is no reasonable was to view the story as "Joel finds his humanity again." The ending of the story involves Joel having been spared multiple times by Marlene. Even if you're 100% on the side of him being justified in murdering everyone in the hospital including the doctors (and potentially nurses), the final sequence is him brutally murdering Marlene as she begs for her life so there is no chance she would ever come after them. Again, he literally murders the person who saved his own life and told him the truth. Then he lied to Ellie about what happened to her. Joel clearly grew to love Ellie and that's important to the story, but so is the fact that at the end of the day Joel was willing to murder an entire building full of people and then lie to Ellie about it. veni veni veni posted:I don't even disagree with that, but I don't think him "rediscovering his humanity" is at odds with any of that either. Maybe it's an over simplification of a game with some complex themes, but that's certainly something that culminates by the end. And this is really driven home in the early hours of TLOU 2 when the game shows what a different person he has become. The issue with "rediscovering his humanity" as a theme is that it doesn't fit Joel. Joel was a terrible violent person at the start of the game and he's a terrible violent person at the end of the game. Being a terrible violent person doesn't mean he doesn't worry or care about people. Tess is a big neon example of that where Joel clearly had a close connection to her and her death hit him hard. Joel coming to care about someone isn't because he suddenly rediscovered the lost kindness deep within himself. It is him growing to care about Ellie as he spends time with her. Part of what makes Joel interesting is that he can both be a caring surrogate father figure and do terrible things. Trying to paint Joel as a good person, or having become a better person, or anything of the sort requires ignoring that the first game ends with murders and lies. I know some people are tend to have Father Knows Best viewpoints towards that kind of stuff but generally murdering a teenager's surrogate mother and then lying to her about it because she'd be angry or upset goes a bit beyond doing what is right for your daughter and entirely into doing what is right for you. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Jul 9, 2021 |
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Jul 9, 2021 04:23
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the games take many hours and many opportunities to demonstrate that people/characters can be more than one thing. this is not hard.
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Jul 9, 2021 07:28
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ImpAtom posted:There is no reasonable was to view the story as "Joel finds his humanity again." and joel's big tee-off has the exact same camera angles and presentation as his murder of marlene, as well. the series is not subtle about this. it's not particularly subtle about anything he starts tlou as a man who committed monstrous acts in the name of survival and ends it doing the exact same thing. the fact that his definition of "survival" changed to be less brutish didn't make the acts themselves any less so, and the consequences came for him regardless of how much he tried to make up for it afterward. the best part of 2lou was the museum scene not for all its wholesome sentimentality, but the dramatic irony of joel behaving like he'd turned over a new leaf when we all knew that putter was coming for his head. "did i do good?" you sure did! and it wasn't enough, and it didn't matter i'd say that one of 2lou's many faults is its dedication to making a clear parallel for every single plot point - ellie's last chapter really was gratuitous and more than a little contrived (finding that one boat on the entire californian coast and then limping back home with a gaping stomach wound, come on), but as far as the game's structure was concerned, it needed to be there so that ellie could pull back from the brink the same way abby did in the theater Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Jul 9, 2021 |
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Jul 9, 2021 07:42
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It's a lawless world, the context of everything changes. Only the boomers were alive in the beforetimes.
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Jul 9, 2021 07:45
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:It's a lawless world, the context of everything changes. Only the boomers were alive in the beforetimes. Yeah, this. I think the above takes ignores the context of the actions, to get something from the game that I don't really think the developers intended. At least not nearly to that degree.
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Jul 9, 2021 08:00
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If there’s one thing to take away from both games, it’s that if you have the chance to kill your enemy, you do it, because sparing them is just gonna cause you headaches down the line.
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Jul 10, 2021 03:28
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bloodysabbath posted:If there’s one thing to take away from both games, it’s that if you have the chance to kill your enemy, you do it, because sparing them is just gonna cause you headaches down the line. Except, Ellie did save Abby's life. Also considering the whole story, I don't think that is the takeaway at all. I disagree with the lawless world stuff because people don't just resort to murdering and doing awful things just because the laws don't exist. Marlene clearly could have had Joel killed several times, but didn't.
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Jul 10, 2021 05:52
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BeanpolePeckerwood posted:It's a lawless world, the context of everything changes. Only the boomers were alive in the beforetimes. veni veni veni posted:Yeah, this. I really don't get how you can play the first LOTU and come away with the idea that the themes it bashed into your skull are accidental. It is not a subtle game. Like it shoves its themes so far into your face you'd think it was middle school English. bloodysabbath posted:If there’s one thing to take away from both games, it’s that if you have the chance to kill your enemy, you do it, because sparing them is just gonna cause you headaches down the line. The majority of the problems in both games come from choosing heat of the moment murder, not mercy or empathy.
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Jul 10, 2021 06:25
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ImpAtom posted:The majority of the problems in both games come from choosing heat of the moment murder, not mercy or empathy. Yeah but if we kill enough people, eventually, it'll work out just fine! The saying is 'fight fire with fire' there's nothing about having to care about understanding or caring anywhere in there!
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Jul 10, 2021 07:57
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