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Does Voting Matter This poll is closed. |
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| Yes |
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91 | 28.44% |
| No |
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133 | 41.56% |
| Jeb |
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59 | 18.44% |
| Bernie |
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37 | 11.56% |
| Total: | 320 votes | ||
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Given the stupid way our electoral system is set up between the electoral college and the first past the post system of deciding a winner, you can't even reliably say until after an election is over that a vote in a given state didn't matter. In wave election years states that were considered safe very often flip and suddenly all those seemingly non-mattering votes ended up mattering a ton. Worth noting too that as recently as a year or two ago people were saying that votes in georgia didn't matter either and no one is going to try to argue that with a straight face now.
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Jul 14, 2021 05:58
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Given the stupid way our electoral system is set up between the electoral college and the first past the post system of deciding a winner, you can't even reliably say until after an election is over that a vote in a given state didn't matter. In wave election years states that were considered safe very often flip and suddenly all those seemingly non-mattering votes ended up mattering a ton. This is more of a should you vote argument though no?
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Jul 14, 2021 06:15
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James Garfield posted:Getting the same results as Obama in 2012 might have been enough to swing the election narrowly, but I am not sure why someone would blame people who voted ninety percent for Clinton when we know that the principal group that won 2016 for Trump was white people (mostly in the north half of the country and without college degrees) who voted for Obama but switched to Trump because he campaigned mostly on racism instead of the Romney campaign issues. I've seen plenty of articles talking about how black people "saved" the country by turning out in the 2020 election. If they want the credit for 2020 they can take the blame for 2016. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 14, 2021 11:12
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PeterCat posted:I've seen plenty of articles talking about how black people "saved" the country by turning out in the 2020 election. If they want the credit for 2020 they can take the blame for 2016. Did you think the racism being too subtle for everyone was the problem with your last version of this take or
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Jul 14, 2021 11:34
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Sedisp posted:Ok than let me be clearer. The collective votes for Joe Biden in the state of Alabama did not matter. There are a handful of battleground and near battleground states where votes for president matter. Again, that reads like “no one goes to that club, it’s too crowded”. It seems like you are defining a vote mattering as your specific vote simply deciding the election against the will of the voters. Your Alabama vote for Biden mattered, it was just outvoted, the electorate of Alabama got the thing it wanted.
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Jul 14, 2021 12:00
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Given the stupid way our electoral system is set up between the electoral college and the first past the post system of deciding a winner, you can't even reliably say until after an election is over that a vote in a given state didn't matter. In wave election years states that were considered safe very often flip and suddenly all those seemingly non-mattering votes ended up mattering a ton. The outcome of the elections in the context of our political system is what does not matter. That is what makes voting not matter. Different asses in the seats doesn't mean voting mattered. Did the D team beat the R team this time? Sure did. Does that mean anything substantial? Absolutely not. Kids are in cages on the border, private prison system/slave labor prison sweatshops are expanding, US foreign policy is murderous, housing is unaffordable, Israel gets money to kill and jail children, the climate crisis is unimpeded, banks get the money printer while people starve and die in the street for no real reason. Saying "what about this marginal difference!?" I'll tell you that this self-soothing whataboutism is destroying your ability to see the country for what it is. Are we the baddies? Yes. Will voting help change that? No.
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Jul 14, 2021 12:06
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You're confusing the reality that your vote will not single handedly change things instantly with the reality that there are, depending on the winds of public opinion at any one time, 80-200 million american voters who are to varying degrees invested in or approving of the status quo and your vote as someone who rightfully considers the entire american undertaking to be monstrous is more about counter-acting that majority than actually fixing the situation. Setting aside party politics, your average american voter wants the US to be a globe spanning military powerhouse with a carte blanche to meddle in foreign affairs and to bully other nations into favorable dealings. Once again I fail to even remotely see how refusing to participate strengthens your position wrt tangibly opposing america's worst impulses.
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Jul 14, 2021 13:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Again, that reads like “no one goes to that club, it’s too crowded”. It seems like you are defining a vote mattering as your specific vote simply deciding the election against the will of the voters. Your Alabama vote for Biden mattered, it was just outvoted, the electorate of Alabama got the thing it wanted. No it metaphysically did not matter. It did not change the state going red nor did the state going red change the outcome of the electoral college. You can argue that it's fine to vote even if it probably will not matter because hey maybe it will if you want but there is literally no way to argue that a vote for Biden in Alabama mattered because again if 100% of the people who voted for Biden decided to not vote for Biden nothing would have changed. Herstory Begins Now posted:Once again I fail to even remotely see how refusing to participate strengthens your position wrt tangibly opposing america's worst impulses. I would assume they engage in activities that they believe do tangibly oppose america's worst impulses. If you don't believe voting does that why would you participate in it? Sedisp fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 13:12
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I'd suggest that a big reason votes don't seem to matter if you aren't a blood red nazi in e.g. Alabama is because of the suppression of votes (working people generally, black people especially) by powerful interests who fear those people will "vote wrong" and harm them, and the solution to that is not to do the voter suppression for them. Georgians partially overcoming voter suppression in 2020 made an impossibly red state suddenly... not that anymore. America being undemocratic is bad, and the historic efforts to make it more democratic were good. Those efforts were a necessary (but not in and of themselves sufficient) part of the process of trying to make America less lovely. But of course nobody on the pro vote side is arguing that it's sufficient for everyone to ignore politics for 4 years, cast a presidential ballot and forget about it like it keeps being framed as. This is a struggle with multiple fronts, one element of that struggle not solving everything (or even most things!) by itself isn't a reason to not do it at all.
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Jul 14, 2021 13:21
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sean10mm posted:I'd suggest that a big reason votes don't seem to matter if you aren't a blood red nazi in e.g. Alabama is because of the suppression of votes (working people generally, black people especially) by powerful interests who fear those people will "vote wrong" and harm them, and the solution to that is not to do the voter suppression for them. Georgians partially overcoming voter suppression in 2020 made an impossibly red state suddenly... not that anymore. Unless I'm misremembering Georgia wasn't impossibly red it was light red and it turned blue not because of people overcoming suppression but because white suburbanites came out in droves for Biden. Even still if I use an example like Massachusetts the same thing is true with trump voters. There votes did not matter. If they voted for no one nothing changes. And this isn't even going into will the final vote even matter at changing the fundamental problems with the country and by extension our continued standard of living on our planet.
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Jul 14, 2021 13:30
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Sedisp posted:No it metaphysically did not matter. It did not change the state going red nor did the state going red change the outcome of the electoral college. You can argue that it's fine to vote even if it probably will not matter because hey maybe it will if you want but there is literally no way to argue that a vote for Biden in Alabama mattered because again if 100% of the people who voted for Biden decided to not vote for Biden nothing would have changed. I feel like you are in a weird solipsistic hole here. Using an example of a massive overwelming win as an example voting "doesn't work".
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Jul 14, 2021 14:00
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Egg Moron posted:The outcome of the elections in the context of our political system is what does not matter. That is what makes voting not matter. So your argument is that political action only matters if it immediately, substantially weakens the foundation of American capitalism?
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Jul 14, 2021 14:02
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Egg Moron posted:Did the D team beat the R team this time? Sure did. Does that mean anything substantial? Absolutely not. Kids are in cages on the border, private prison system/slave labor prison sweatshops are expanding, US foreign policy is murderous, housing is unaffordable, Israel gets money to kill and jail children, the climate crisis is unimpeded, banks get the money printer while people starve and die in the street for no real reason. Literally all of those things would be true right now, regardless of who got elected president last year. Yes, even if you won a write-in campaign.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:08
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I feel like you are in a weird solipsistic hole here. Using an example of a massive overwelming win as an example voting "doesn't work". And no one who voted in Alabama contributed to the outcome of this win. I legitimately do not understand your confusion here. Kalit posted:Literally all of those things would be true right now, regardless of who got elected president last year. Yes, even if you won a write-in campaign. Isn't that their point?
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Jul 14, 2021 14:11
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Sedisp posted:And no one who voted in Alabama contributed to the outcome of this win. I legitimately do not understand your confusion here. Sedisp posted:This is more of a should you vote argument though no? My confusion is you playing both sides of this. Sedisp posted:Isn't that their point? My point is massive systemic issues such as those listed cannot be changed within a year within the context of our current political/court system we have and the views of the average citizen. It's impossible. That doesn't mean there are no differences with who's in charge and how voting impacts these issues long term.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:16
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Egg Moron posted:Did the D team beat the R team this time? Sure did. Does that mean anything substantial? Absolutely not. People have given you specific examples of it affecting their lives, though, and your response was "pretend they didn't happen and post bullshit to distract from that instead". Would you like to address those specific things, or are you not here to discuss things in good faith?
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Jul 14, 2021 14:17
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Sedisp posted:And no one who voted in Alabama contributed to the outcome of this win. I legitimately do not understand your confusion here. Is the argument seriously that voting doesn't matter if your state doesn't swing for the party you want? Do you understand how voting works? Sedisp posted:Unless I'm misremembering Georgia wasn't impossibly red it was light red and it turned blue not because of people overcoming suppression but because white suburbanites came out in droves for Biden. Even still if I use an example like Massachusetts the same thing is true with trump voters. There votes did not matter. If they voted for no one nothing changes.  Voting for a losing party does not make those votes invalid. There was real chance Trump could've won. Again, you don't seem to understand how voting works, and claiming that people voting for a losing party suddenly makes their voting not matter ignores that being the entire point of a representative government and voting in general.The Mattybee posted:People have given you specific examples of it affecting their lives, though, and your response was "pretend they didn't happen and post bullshit to distract from that instead". Would you like to address those specific things, or are you not here to discuss things in good faith? I suspect he is not arguing in good faith.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:18
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Kalit posted:My confusion is you playing both sides of this. I have no idea how those two statements contradict one another or are playing both sides can you explain? Kalit posted:My point is massive systemic issues such as those listed cannot be changed within a year within the context of our current political/court system we have and the views of the average citizen. It's impossible. That doesn't mean there are no differences with who's in charge and how voting impacts these issues long term. My assumption is they don't believe long term systemic changes such as they listed will come about by voting in a US election.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:21
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So, which forms of political participation do matter?
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Jul 14, 2021 14:26
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Sedisp posted:I have no idea how those two statements contradict one another or are playing both sides can you explain? The most recent response (along with a couple before it) was arguing that voting in AL is worthless because it's a red state. However, that is more of a "does your vote count" argument, not a "does voting matter". That earlier response was you specifically making the argument that Herstory Begins Now was talking about "does your vote count" (instead of, presumably, "does voting matter"). Sedisp posted:My assumption is they don't believe long term systemic changes such as they listed will come about by voting in a US election. And I'm stating how expecting immediate, systemic change is even more impossible to expect than long term, systemic change is. People here who expect these things to be fixed instantaneously seem to forget that the average citizen are far from having the same views as the average SA poster. Kalit fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 14:26
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The Mattybee posted:People have given you specific examples of it affecting their lives, though, and your response was "pretend they didn't happen and post bullshit to distract from that instead". Would you like to address those specific things, or are you not here to discuss things in good faith? Those arguments are strong in terms of Why You Should Vote. Someone who’s material needs have been met by the government got something out of their vote. If I put myself in the shoes of someone who can afford their medicine now, or has a preexisting condition and now can’t be denied insurance, voting worked for me. I can put myself in your shoes and agree, voting worked for you. Now I’m asking you to do the same for someone who is one of the mass of non-voters. Imagine you are poor, of color, part of a community regularly harassed by the police, you maybe have a string of small misdemeanors that have consistently kept you broke by making it hard to keep a job, and forcing you to pay a bunch of fees to the same government who sends cops to your neighborhood to enact the racist policies that keep loving your life up. Nobody in your family has been to college. And you live in a city and state that is controlled by Democrats. Explain to that person what voting gets them.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:28
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Kalit posted:The most recent response (along with a couple before it) was arguing that voting in AL is worthless because it's a red state. However, that is more of a "does your vote count" argument, not a "does voting matter". That earlier response was you specifically making the argument that Herstory Begins Now was talking about "does your vote count" (instead of, presumably, "does voting matter"). I was under the assumption that vote not counting would fall under the umbrella of voting not mattering? Whats the difference that I'm failing to see?
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Jul 14, 2021 14:30
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Sedisp posted:I was under the assumption that vote not counting would fall under the umbrella of voting not mattering? You tell me, you were the one who posted: Sedisp posted:This is more of a should you vote argument though no? Unless I mis-interpreting what your response meant, which I apologize if I am.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:33
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Kalit posted:The most recent response (along with a couple before it) was arguing that voting in AL is worthless because it's a red state. However, that is more of a "does your vote count" argument, not a "does voting matter". That earlier response was you specifically making the argument that Herstory Begins Now was talking about "does your vote count" (instead of, presumably, "does voting matter"). The state itself isn't red, the ground isn't voting. It's a "red state" because there is an electorate that strongly votes one way and you are getting outvoted by them. That is what voting *IS*. The outcome of an election matching the will of the electorate is a voting system mattering. It not getting you your desired outcome isn't it "not mattering" it's you not having support for your goals. (and yeah, voter suppression exists, but again, that is because voting matters)
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Jul 14, 2021 14:37
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Kalit posted:You tell me, you were the one who posted: Ok. But you can do something because it might matter even if it ended up not mattering in the end right? Like if there's a fire and I run to a fire extinguisher only to have it squirt a little flag that says bang on it my actions wrt to putting out the fire didn't matter that didn't mean I shouldn't have tried to grab the extinguisher.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:40
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Sedisp posted:Ok. But you can do something because it might matter even if it ended up not mattering in the end right? You are forgetting one critical point in your comparison: That there's a 50/50 chance that you squeeze the trigger and it is a fire extinguisher. And you are forgetting one other thing: That voting isn't just about Presidential, the most critical parts of voting are State and City positions, which are even more so affected by turnout. So no, you really don't understand voting at all. The whole attitude of "Well, my chose candidate might lose, so why do it" is a really poor way to rationalize it.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:45
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CommieGIR posted:
That's a really bad faith reading of pretty much everything I've posted. I don't think I've even claimed voting never matters lol.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:48
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Sedisp posted:That's a really bad faith reading of pretty much everything I've posted. I don't think I've even claimed voting never matters lol. Yeah, there’s a lot of bad faith reading going on that translates “for some people, not voting seems to be a rational choice” to “nobody should vote”
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Jul 14, 2021 14:53
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Sedisp posted:Ok. But you can do something because it might matter even if it ended up not mattering in the end right? I think you're missing the key point of influencing other humans. In your analogy, your actions could alert others that there is an issue, and someone else with a [working] fire extinguisher could help put out that fire. To bring it to voting in AL, if the gap closes between R and D votes, it could influence others who previously thought their vote was worthless that "hey, maybe my vote will make a difference". Humans aren't static, peoples' opinions change, etc. That's why WV switched from a solid blue state to a solid red state. So yes, even if you don't get a desired outcome immediately, it could still matter for the future. And in this case, it does, since state politics/party leanings do change over time. Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 14:57
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Sedisp posted:That's a really bad faith reading of pretty much everything I've posted. I don't think I've even claimed voting never matters lol. You are saying it doesn't matter if you live in a state that might be red though, that's saying "Oh, it doesn't matter sometimes" But being able to swing states from red to blue and vice versa proves that's not true.
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Jul 14, 2021 14:59
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Sedisp posted:Ok. But you can do something because it might matter even if it ended up not mattering in the end right? Yeah, but you are setting yourself as the sole actor in this story. Your will (no fire) should have simply happened because you took an action. It seems like people are grappling with the idea that other people vote too and your opinion has to actually win the vote to get implemented. Like a voting system that "worked" would be you pressing a button and whatever you vote for happens, instead of voting being a system with other voters that could not vote the same way you do. Maybe everyone wants a fire, maybe they are wrong (as judged by me) and should just make me king so I just tell everyone what is right. But a functional voting system does require that you may not win if most people disagree with you. If everyone wants the fire, maybe it's good you alone can't just choose to put it out and have to actually bother to convince some fraction of them to do the same.
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Jul 14, 2021 15:01
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Kalit posted:I think you're missing the key point of influencing other humans. In your analogy, your actions could alert others that there is an issue, and someone else with a fire extinguisher could help out put out that fire. Like I said earlier the conversation has to be limited to something or the only answer to does voting matters is "sometimes" Owlofcreamcheese posted:Yeah, but you are setting yourself as the sole actor in this story. Your will (no fire) should have simply happened because you took an action. It seems like people are grappling with the idea that other people vote too and your opinion has to actually win the vote to get implemented. Like a voting system that "worked" would be you pressing a button and whatever you vote for happens, instead of voting being a system with other voters that could not vote the same way you do. ...no I was using an example of thinking something would do one thing when it actually didn't not as a perfect representation of the US electoral system. Sedisp fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 15:07
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Maybe everyone wants a fire, maybe they are wrong (as judged by me) and should just make me king so I just tell everyone what is right. But a functional voting system does require that you may not win if most people disagree with you. If everyone wants the fire, maybe it's good you alone can't just choose to put it out and have to actually bother to convince some fraction of them to do the same. This is a pretty revealing response. The hallmark of a functional voting system in your estimation is that it gives the people what they vote for, but you are sparing no thought as to why everyone would want to die in a fire. What's your explanation of situations like that? People are just stupid? On the contrary, someone who is skeptical of electoralism has no problem understanding this. Awful outcomes like this get electoral support because options are carefully constrained (both candidates favor fire), the information used to make decisions is tightly controlled (fire is actually good), systemic forces decisively favor fire and so no amount of voting or electoral action is going to overcome that. You're the one focusing on an individual vote while we're saying that the inability of the electoral system to address these kinds of problems is a critical failure of voting - even organized voting in aggregate.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:01
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Voting absolutely doesn't matter and is just fluff for liberals to give them good boy points. Democrats and Republicans are both thralls of capital and stewards of american empire, frankly I would be glad if 2024 were the last real election so we could stop having these dumb and tedious arguements.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:17
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Terminal autist posted:Voting absolutely doesn't matter and is just fluff for liberals to give them good boy points. Democrats and Republicans are both thralls of capital and stewards of american empire, frankly I would be glad if 2024 were the last real election so we could stop having these dumb and tedious arguements. Ah the "Just embrace fascism" argument, got it. Thanks for contributing to the thread.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:20
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Terminal autist posted:Voting absolutely doesn't matter and is just fluff for liberals to give them good boy points. Democrats and Republicans are both thralls of capital and stewards of american empire, frankly I would be glad if 2024 were the last real election so we could stop having these dumb and tedious arguements. I'm convinced. Thank you for enlightening us with this mind blowing realization. Close the thread, we're done here.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:21
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CommieGIR posted:Ah the "Just embrace fascism" argument, got it. Thanks for contributing to the thread. "Just embrace fascism" seems to come up a lot now
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Jul 14, 2021 16:31
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SlothfulCobra posted:Trump was the climate change denier. Obama put together programs that Trump tried to dismantle, and Biden is back to doing programs to do something about it. Trump dropped bombs and tried to violently disrupt protests. Everyone in power is a climate change denier. Biden and the dem leadership are 100% climate change deniers. If an asteroid is headed to earth and one group says "no its not" and the other group says "we're going to send someone up in a space suit to push on it", they're both denying that this astroid is going to hit and kill everyone, one group is just feeding their base comforting pablum they know they want to hear. "Joe and the democrats want to reduce co2 emissions" is incompatible with "Joe is increasing new drilling permits". They say the first part because its buzz words to feed their base, but the second part, their actions, are what matters. I'm not trying to be glib or snarky about this, but you either believe what all the science is saying and act accordingly, or you don't, in which case you're admitting you don't believe in it. If Joe and the Dems actually believed in climate change, then their actions they take would be those of a sociopathic monster, a literal comic book villain who wants to "destroy the world". If the democrats actually believed in climate change and kept doing what they're doing there would be no circle of hell deep enough for their crimes. At least in the republican's defense (i can't believe i'm saying that), they're burying their heads in the sand, openly and proudly, the democrats are either lying about burying their heads in the sand, or monstrous beyond measure. You will never have a vote in america that will actually effect climate change because the people with actual power, who make money off things the way they are, will never allow the staggering changes that would require. By hook or by crook they will never let you.
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Jul 14, 2021 16:36
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Tom Guycot posted:Everyone in power is a climate change denier. Biden and the dem leadership are 100% climate change deniers. Bullshit: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...y-technologies/ https://pelosi.house.gov/issues/energy-and-environment https://thehill.com/homenews/house/515875-pelosi-climate-change-will-be-early-part-of-democrats-2021-agenda https://www.democrats.senate.gov/ne...-climate-change Yes, the drilling permits are a problem, but given the alternative was Trump who was openly tying the EPA, NOAA, and NASA's hands in monitoring and regulating emissions, Biden is immensely different. But to openly claim they are climate change deniers: No that's loving stupid. There is a vast difference between being a climate change denier and having to work in a system that favors corporatism, but most of those companies would've MUCH preferred Trump stay in power and the GOP remain in power, because they had way more leeway with them to do as they please. There is a difference, even if the difference is subtle and not taking the emergency that is climate change as seriously as we'd like. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 16:39
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The subtle difference does nothing to prevent runway climate change, which was the point being made. We're gonna crash into a wall. Biden acknowledges that there is a brake pedal and eases off the accelerator some some. But we need is to slam the brakes. hitting the wall a little slower won't matter Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jul 14, 2021 |
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Jul 14, 2021 16:45
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