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Yeah they just luck out the 10+ times that the Doctor is almost destroyed by some thing or another, which would have doomed the ship since they have no one with even 10% of his medical knowledge or training.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:26
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I said earlier in my edit, sorry for that, but it would have been an interesting story line for the EMH to actually field-train few ensigns or non-comms to become the new medical staff. What would be the use for EMH if there were a couple of field-promoted medical officers and first-care chiefs on the ship after completing their basic and advanced trainings? Surely the Voyager carries the training materials in its databanks, and EMH can teach everything he knows. (But is he willing to do so for fearing that he will be shut off?) I fear that this goes once again to the bin of "the showrunners did not think this far".
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Jul 14, 2021 23:29
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We can’t have the EMH train other people to do medical things, that would cut into his “sitting in my office being smug to no one in particular” time.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:32
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The EMH can train medics in the space of several months, but to become an actual medical doctor or worse, competent surgeon? I'd have to imagine even in the future that takes many, many years of intensive classroom study and a lengthy residency. Besides, the EMH has terrible interpersonal skills and I can't imagine that he's a very effective educator. Not only was his programmer a pompous rear end, but he likely wasn't given much ability to educate other than immediate, basic instruction.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:44
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A.o.D. posted:The EMH can train medics in the space of several months, but to become an actual medical doctor or worse, competent surgeon? I'd have to imagine even in the future that takes many, many years of intensive classroom study and a lengthy residency. Besides, the EMH has terrible interpersonal skills and I can't imagine that he's a very effective educator. Not only was his programmer a pompous rear end, but he likely wasn't given much ability to educate other than immediate, basic instruction. The Starfleet is the "best of the best", and EMH can still be the specialist on call, but for most purposes training a combat medic takes ~5 months and general diagnosis doctor takes 2-3 years tops.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:47
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Der Kyhe posted:The Starfleet is the "best of the best", and EMH can still be the specialist on call, but for most purposes training a combat medic takes ~5 months and general diagnosis doctor takes 2-3 years tops. 2-3 years "tops" is a very accellerated course and that's not compatible with part-time learning and it assumes that they have all of the prerequisite instruction needed to become a medical professional.. The EMH doesn't need sleep, but it does need to be able to provide uninterrupted instruction in a proper environment. Maybe you could 'clone' the EMH so that you have one providing medical care and another providing instruction. Meanwhile, the entire time you have several of your very limited crew in training, that's all they're doing. They're spending 8 hours a day in instruction, plus quite a few more in independent study. They're not pulling duty shifts or going on away missions. Their full time job is becoming doctors.
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Jul 14, 2021 23:56
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A.o.D. posted:2-3 years "tops" is a very accellerated course and that's not compatible with part-time learning and it assumes that they have all of the prerequisite instruction needed to become a medical professional.. The EMH doesn't need sleep, but it does need to be able to provide uninterrupted instruction in a proper environment. Maybe you could 'clone' the EMH so that you have one providing medical care and another providing instruction. Meanwhile, the entire time you have several of your very limited crew in training, that's all they're doing. They're spending 8 hours a day in instruction, plus quite a few more in independent study. They're not pulling duty shifts or going on away missions. Their full time job is becoming doctors. If the Starfleet is anything close to modern armies and their training, they start with trauma 1 and some basic medical training. Its not much, but for most basic poo poo the medibed and analytics tools should do the most of the fundamental stuff, like basic surgery and pointing out infections.
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Jul 15, 2021 00:07
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A.o.D. posted:The EMH can train medics in the space of several months, but to become an actual medical doctor or worse, competent surgeon? I'd have to imagine even in the future that takes many, many years of intensive classroom study and a lengthy residency. Besides, the EMH has terrible interpersonal skills and I can't imagine that he's a very effective educator. Not only was his programmer a pompous rear end, but he likely wasn't given much ability to educate other than immediate, basic instruction. "Computer, load holodeck program "Starfleet Medical School". Simulate all staff members."
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Jul 15, 2021 00:20
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Big Mean Jerk posted:There’s that episode where the EMH’s ethics program starts loving him up because he couldn’t possibly attend to two gravely injured crewmen at the same time and it’s like what the gently caress do you suppose is going to happen if you ever get into an actual battle and there’s just whole bunches of casualties streaming into Sickbay? TNG had Ogawa and a bunch of other nurses, TOS had Chapel and M’Benga, even DS9 had a couple of Bajorans helping out Bashir in his tiny closet of an infirmary on occasion. His ethics program was loving up because he had to make a choice between two people with equal chance of survival and he picked his friend
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Jul 15, 2021 00:26
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Powered Descent posted:"Computer, load holodeck program "Starfleet Medical School". Simulate all staff members." Yeah but that would get in the way of Janeway's victorian novel and the last ensign who tried that we're still finding pieces of them.
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Jul 15, 2021 00:38
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Eimi posted:Yeah but that would get in the way of Janeway's victorian novel and the last ensign who tried that we're still finding pieces of them. Janeway doesn't just turn off the holodeck safeties, she hotwires it to somehow be even more dangerous just for funsies.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:30
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let Suder be the doctor imo, satiate his desire for blood and encourage everyone to stay healthy
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Jul 15, 2021 01:43
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FlamingLiberal posted:Speaking of Voyager, I never understand why they only train Kes to be a nurse when the entire medical staff is somehow killed during the trip to the DQ. Then when Kes leaves it's basically just Paris as the nurse when he's not on bridge duty. You have like 150 other crewmembers, nobody else can be trained as a field medic? What? And pay another actor?
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Jul 15, 2021 01:44
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Neelix should have been a doctor. Hear me out. Instead of being a goofy...whatever he was, he should have been a font of unusual medical knowledge because of the rough and rowdy Delta Quadrant. Basically Phlox, but rougher around the edges.
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Jul 15, 2021 01:59
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A.o.D. posted:They're spending 8 hours a day in instruction, plus quite a few more in independent study. They're not pulling duty shifts or going on away missions. Their full time job is becoming doctors. Eh just reassign them. I'm sure "backup doctor for our only doctor" is more important than running diagnostic cycles. Also I haven't been to med school but I can't imagine a better learning environment than a one on one teacher who doesn't need rest with the full Starfleet medical corpus in his head and a state of the art medbay cum laboratory.
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Jul 15, 2021 02:13
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Voyager had a Cum Laboratory? I may need to reassess my rankings.
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Jul 15, 2021 02:28
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It was just Neelix’s quarters
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Jul 15, 2021 02:50
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Sash! posted:Neelix should have been a doctor. Same bedside manner though
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Jul 15, 2021 02:53
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they should have had janeway grudignly let the doctor go to opera island, then had a scene where the doctor had to choose between opera people and his replacement being inadequate. do a whole thing about choosing his comrades over personal glory and showing a further level of his becoming human thing.
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Jul 15, 2021 03:32
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MikeJF posted:The Swarm. The Doctor starts breaking down because he wasn't meant to be used for more than a few months and running him for years has filled up his memory architecture, and they consider resetting him. At the end they do a risky attempt to save him that might lose the program and he still seems to lose his memories but then they begin to come back to him I think that's the one where they Tuvix his program with the holographic diagnosis program that exists to be tech support for his program. FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah they just luck out the 10+ times that the Doctor is almost destroyed by some thing or another, which would have doomed the ship since they have no one with even 10% of his medical knowledge or training. FlamingLiberal posted:Speaking of Voyager, I never understand why they only train Kes to be a nurse when the entire medical staff is somehow killed during the trip to the DQ. Then when Kes leaves it's basically just Paris as the nurse when he's not on bridge duty. You have like 150 other crewmembers, nobody else can be trained as a field medic? Voyager should have had more times when they picked up new characters and maybe had a more revolving door of a cast. Maybe they could've found someone to play second fiddle to the EMH and take care of sickbay when he couldn't. syense posted:they should have had janeway grudignly let the doctor go to opera island, then had a scene where the doctor had to choose between opera people and his replacement being inadequate. do a whole thing about choosing his comrades over personal glory and showing a further level of his becoming human thing. The weird part about this whole debate is that he may be sentient but he's also a computer program. There's that episode where a backup of him is found hundreds of years in the future and he has to correct an incorrect accounting of history. So... what if they just saved a backup and run that as their EMH? Of course that opens a whole other can of worms, ethically.
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Jul 15, 2021 04:00
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Nullsmack posted:The weird part about this whole debate is that he may be sentient but he's also a computer program. There's that episode where a backup of him is found hundreds of years in the future and he has to correct an incorrect accounting of history. So... what if they just saved a backup and run that as their EMH? Of course that opens a whole other can of worms, ethically. Well 9 episodes earlier they were trying (without success) to create a new EMH since the original was off gallivanting with Andy Dick and telling him how great his holodick was. Apparently a backup wasn’t something they had thought about...
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Jul 15, 2021 05:03
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You don't even need to have speaking characters...just have actual background medical staff after maybe an episode where not having the staff becomes an issue
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Jul 15, 2021 05:23
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Sash! posted:Neelix should have been a doctor. If he filled that kind of role though, star trek might never have gotten Dr. Phlox, the ultimate expression of Roddenberry's Vision©: Being a weird dumpy space man swinger in a polycule, with access to all the drugs, getting mad at his buddies if they won't gently caress his wife while telling everyone else they're too sexually hung up.
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Jul 15, 2021 05:26
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Phlox is unironically my favorite doctor
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Jul 15, 2021 05:28
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HD DAD posted:Phlox is unironically my favorite doctor I just loved the sense he put off that he's seen It All, and buddy, It All don't give a poo poo about you so here's a queasy smile until you gently caress off
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Jul 15, 2021 05:42
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Phlox was good.
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Jul 15, 2021 07:01
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Powered Descent posted:"Computer, load holodeck program "Starfleet Medical School". Simulate all staff members." There is the episode where he simulates a Cardassian war criminal to operate on B'lanna. Can't he just summon up a hologram of Dr. McCoy but in his prime?
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Jul 15, 2021 07:55
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A holodeck program but the General Hospital soap opera.
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Jul 15, 2021 07:58
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oh poo poo something happened? computer generate someone who knows what they're doing BWEE BWEE BOOP
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Jul 15, 2021 09:25
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Tighclops posted:oh poo poo something happened? computer generate someone who knows what they're doing WHY ARE ALL THESE DOCTORS JOE PISCOPO?!?!
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Jul 15, 2021 09:29
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The ethics of a Starfleet Psychology Dept experiment was hotly debated when it was found a researcher made a holographic simulation of Lt. Barclay and gave him unfettered command access to a holodeck.
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Jul 15, 2021 09:35
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V-Men posted:There is the episode where he simulates a Cardassian war criminal to operate on B'lanna. Can't he just summon up a hologram of Dr. McCoy but in his prime? Computer load the Emergency Doctor Rick Dagless MD.
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Jul 15, 2021 09:49
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HD DAD posted:Phlox is unironically my favorite doctor Same, John Billingsley steals the screen in everything. He was the soup guy in Orville too.
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Jul 15, 2021 14:43
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Nullsmack posted:The weird part about this whole debate is that he may be sentient but he's also a computer program. There's that episode where a backup of him is found hundreds of years in the future and he has to correct an incorrect accounting of history. So... what if they just saved a backup and run that as their EMH? Of course that opens a whole other can of worms, ethically. Yeah I think they weren't really equipped to properly tackle this issue because they were coming at it from a largely pre-internet perspective. They basically subbed "hologram" for "robot" but it isn't really the same thing, which I think is why those dilemma episodes always fell flat for me. Really, it makes more sense to think of them as a hivemind, more like the Borg. A big swarm of AIs that learn from each other. Just taking one instance and trying to make it analogous to a human doesn't really ring true.
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Jul 15, 2021 14:44
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V-Men posted:There is the episode where he simulates a Cardassian war criminal to operate on B'lanna. Can't he just summon up a hologram of Dr. McCoy but in his prime? Computer, we need the best doctor in Earth's history. Load up Dr. Doogie Howser
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Jul 15, 2021 15:49
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Sir Lemming posted:Yeah I think they weren't really equipped to properly tackle this issue because they were coming at it from a largely pre-internet perspective. They basically subbed "hologram" for "robot" but it isn't really the same thing, which I think is why those dilemma episodes always fell flat for me. Really, it makes more sense to think of them as a hivemind, more like the Borg. A big swarm of AIs that learn from each other. Just taking one instance and trying to make it analogous to a human doesn't really ring true. I dunno, Voyager definitely wasn't really "pre-internet" by any reasonable standards, and I don't think that was the issue anyway. The writers on Voyager just weren't very good and didn't really give a poo poo, and it shows up a lot in high-concept sci-fi stuff like the doctor. Making copies really has the same problem: you either lobotomize the copy so it doesn't experience individuality or you end up with a copy that also doesn't necessarily want to be the doctor. And if you can just cut the doctor's personality out and turn him into an automaton, then why the gently caress did they design him with sentience in the first place? Basically, the whole idea of a sentient computer being with a sense of self-determination press-ganged into service is problematic and the writers weren't prepared to address the idea that they created a character with a fundamental flaw.
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Jul 15, 2021 15:50
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Gonz posted:A holodeck program but the General Hospital soap opera. Seeing as how the holodeck is always horney, I think if you did say "Computer Generate a Hospital" it would do that and then fill it with busty nurses and alcoholic doctors with triple dicks.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:07
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Paradoxish posted:I dunno, Voyager definitely wasn't really "pre-internet" by any reasonable standards, and I don't think that was the issue anyway. I mean that's definitely true too, and I know the show was not actually "pre-internet"; but the writers probably didn't know or think much about the possibilities of the internet at the time, and couldn't necessarily have predicted how pervasive it would be in so many aspects of life including whatever form of AI we came up with. But from where I'm sitting, the idea of a sentient hologram that isn't also always connected to a central hub and distributed to millions of other locations is basically an irrelevant fantasy.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:08
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Burning_Monk posted:Seeing as how the holodeck is always horney, I think if you did say "Computer Generate a Hospital" it would do that and then fill it with busty nurses and alcoholic doctors with triple dicks. That'd be one way to tell if Riker had just been in the holodeck.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:19
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Sir Lemming posted:I mean that's definitely true too, and I know the show was not actually "pre-internet"; but the writers probably didn't know or think much about the possibilities of the internet at the time, and couldn't necessarily have predicted how pervasive it would be in so many aspects of life including whatever form of AI we came up with. But from where I'm sitting, the idea of a sentient hologram that isn't also always connected to a central hub and distributed to millions of other locations is basically an irrelevant fantasy. I guess what I'm getting at is that the doctor was also nonsensical at the time, too. The idea that he wasn't connected to a central hub is fine, because the whole point is that he's for emergencies on ships that might potentially be very, very, very, very far away, so he'd need to be highly independent. A spaceship doctor that doesn't work because he can't connect to the Federation's version of Twitter would not be very effective. It also kind of makes sense that he wasn't designed to be in a ton of places at once since there weren't (initially) holo emitters all over the ship. The real problem is that he's basically just Data reimagined as a hologram created expressly to serve Starfleet and that's a little... odd.
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Jul 15, 2021 16:19
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