|
Okay so a "just" hierarchy is one I consent to. What if I refuse? Am I lynched?
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 01:58 |
|
|
xtal posted:The key word is "unjust" hierarchy, if it's one that's opted into (like a teacher and student) then it's fine. States on the other hand don't care about your consent. How is it unjust if the state itself is the workers?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:38
|
|
|
Kaedric posted:I get that there are people who do that whole 'literally I cannot even have a boss at my co-op if I am an anarchist' but that is a vanishingly small and noisy group. The removal of unjust hierarchy is not the same thing as having no hierarchy at all. right, and then it turns out that any hierarchy they don't like is unjust and we're back to square one
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:39
|
|
|
Doctor Jeep posted:right, and then it turns out that any hierarchy they don't like is unjust and we're back to square one Can't argue with that
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:43
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:got a question for you. let's hypothetically say that we got this society, so if the communists do come over without respecting your no rules zone, how much would you scream and moan about them breaking the nap by freeing your slaves? what are you talking about there's no slaves it would be like a hippy festival. obviously capitalism and slavery are not allowed in any of the zones jeez
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:45
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:Okay so a "just" hierarchy is one I consent to. What if I refuse? Am I lynched? the way to achieve anarchy is for individuals to have leverage over the state. this means everyone should own personal nuclear weapons. this way no one can coerce anyone else due to the principal of mutually assured destruction
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:49
|
|
|
i remember asking anarchists about how they would coordinate a response to a pandemic or climate change and the response was "well we'd just let people enter into voluntarist arrangements on how to go about it" instead of a statist approach i don't see how this is any different from "the market will decide" libertarian bullshit thats led us to exactly where they are today. the retreat of the state from economic and policy decision making in the neoliberal era led to a power vacuum where the most powerful private interests dominate. how is anarchism not a right wing ideology
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:52
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:Interesting, where is this territory Depends on how far you want to stretch the definition of "anarchism." There's plenty of stateless polities, but if you ask the Zapatistas or the PKK if they're anarchists then they'll deny it. mila kunis posted:i remember asking anarchists about how they would coordinate a response to a pandemic or climate change and the response was "well we'd just let people enter into voluntarist arrangements on how to go about it" instead of a statist approach Trusting in the responsibility of citizens to make the right choices was literally Sweden's covid policy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:57
|
|
|
anarchists can absolutely be converted. Some people are very attached to ideology but a ton are basically Marxists who are highly sympathetic to a lot of liberal values like freedom of speech and expression and who really don't like things like the Great Purge or Cultural Revolution but as always you have to figure out where they're coming from, the person whose driving force is YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO DAD isn't gonna be receptive to anything, the person who just really hates state violence is going to be open to a conversation because they're probably just utopians that need to be brought down a peg
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:57
|
|
|
mila kunis posted:i remember asking anarchists about how they would coordinate a response to a pandemic or climate change and the response was "well we'd just let people enter into voluntarist arrangements on how to go about it" instead of a statist approach what crime against humanity did you commit to get the "Funded by the Pissflaps coalition" gang tag
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:58
|
|
|
mila kunis posted:i remember asking anarchists about how they would coordinate a response to a pandemic or climate change and the response was "well we'd just let people enter into voluntarist arrangements on how to go about it" instead of a statist approach I once asked: "what's an anarchist's plan for manufacturing a ventilator?" quote:Steal the plans for and 3D-print the parts. The bigger question is how to get from here to there. quote:Anarchism is not anathema to scaling up production and institutions. Anarchism believes this scaling up does not need the coercion of hierarchies, capital, or the state.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 04:59
|
|
|
They can't even run a community garden.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 05:01
|
|
|
an anarchist ventilator would end up like one of those goon projects
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 05:07
|
|
|
gradenko_2000 posted:I once asked: "what's an anarchist's plan for manufacturing a ventilator?" This is why it's so funny when somebody claims that anarchists and communists believe in the same things. Anarchism is just plainly an ideological philosophy without any basis in materialism. These solutions are fantasies. Like, what happens if you have a supply chain comprised of multiple jointly-owned collectives, and one point on the chain doesn't consent to follow your plan to produce a necessary part for the ventilator? The real blindspot in anarchist thinking is that anarchist solutions all suppose a world that has moved beyond politics.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 05:07
|
|
|
Pener Kropoopkin posted:This is why it's so funny when somebody claims that anarchists and communists believe in the same things. Anarchism is just plainly an ideological philosophy without any basis in materialism. These solutions are fantasies. Like, what happens if you have a supply chain comprised of multiple jointly-owned collectives, and one point on the chain doesn't consent to follow your plan to produce a necessary part for the ventilator? ok well then how do you use violence to enforce your will without creating another class structure. someone has to hold the stick and someone has to take the beatings, it doesn't work if everyone has a stick
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 05:21
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:If you are pro-hierarchy how are you not a communist? Kind of the point I was making. If you can show that your hierarchy is just, then there's not really a problem. I think the issue is that people look at these states, and the power structures in them, and do not see them reflecting the people's will. I'm not well versed on most of these topics, but I am trying to learn. Let us take Cuba as an example that I hope you'll walk through with me and help me understand. After the Castros, my understanding is that the new guy in charge started making what I would consider 'capitalist' revisions to how things worked, and privatisation of certain sectors. I do not live in Cuba, but I would consider this a very worrying trend that may eventually result in the dissolution of all that had been worked for before. (Again, I am not well versed, so if this is a mischaracterization of what happened, please let me know). What is the recourse for the people in this circumstance?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 05:48
|
|
|
anarchists and marxists are just optimists and pessimists. maxists assume they will be holding the stick after the revolution, anarchists assume someone else will be holding the stick
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 05:48
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:anarchists and marxists are just optimists and pessimists. maxists assume they will be holding the stick after the revolution, anarchists assume someone else will be holding the stick temporarily embarrassed bourgeoisie
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 05:53
|
|
|
xtal posted:temporarily embarrassed bourgeoisie Teb!
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 05:55
|
|
|
even chairman bob bent the knee to biden, probably got him a whole fifteen votes
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:06
|
|
|
Kaedric posted:Kind of the point I was making. If you can show that your hierarchy is just, then there's not really a problem. https://twitter.com/Solidarity_Star/status/1415827496352763914
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:06
|
|
|
Doctor Jeep posted:even chairman bob bent the knee to biden, probably got him a whole fifteen votes That was hilarious but not terribly surprising for Cop Party USA, and I say this as a communist
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:07
|
|
|
there sure are a lot of big words in here, but if you ask me anarchism is all about being motivated by love instead of fear and trusting in human beings innate drive to be a good part of a greater whole
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:16
|
|
|
pnac attack posted:there sure are a lot of big words in here, but if you ask me anarchism is all about being motivated by love instead of fear and trusting in human beings innate drive to be a good part of a greater whole That's not actually what it is about
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:18
|
|
|
Speaking of big words, does anyone have a MLM criticism of Chomsky to share? Aside from the Harper letter. I've got a bad feeling about that guy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:19
|
|
|
You're describing the worldview of a California yoga studio owner who runs an anti-vaxx facebook group and is currently being investigated by the FBI for storming the capitol
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:20
|
|
|
xtal posted:Speaking of big words, does anyone have a MLM criticism of Chomsky to share? Aside from the Harper letter. I've got a bad feeling about that guy. Electoralist, correctly identifies problems but his tenure and oppositional defiance disorder caused by becoming wealthy in the imperial core means he cannot embrace any solutions. Every 4 years is elevated by the liberal agitprop machine as he always tells people to vote for this or that pawn of capital and is addicted to the attention. Admirably prompt in his email replies which shows a genuine concern about the concerns of others.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:22
|
|
|
he got owned by foucault
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:27
|
|
|
That twat is protected so I didn't get to see what I imagine was a very sick burn
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:28
|
|
|
xtal posted:Speaking of big words, does anyone have a MLM criticism of Chomsky to share? Aside from the Harper letter. I've got a bad feeling about that guy. parenti in blackshirts and reds has a whole chapter dedicated to left anti-communists, he doesn't focus on chomsky per se but i ctrl-f'd the chomsky specific bits (the whole chapter, and book is really worth reading though: https://eastsidemarxism.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds-rational-fascism-and-the-overthrow-of-communism.pdf) quote:Many on the U.S. Left have exhibited a Soviet bashing and Red baiting that matches anything on the Right in its enmity and crudity. Listen to Noam Chomsky holding forth about "left intellectuals" who try to "rise to power on the backs of mass popular movements" and "then beat the people into submission .... Yo u start off as basically a Leninist who is going to be part of the Red bureaucracy. Yo u see later that power doesn't lie that way, and you very quickly become an ideologist of the right. ... We're seeing it right now in the [former J Soviet Union. The same guys who were communist thugs two years back, are now running banks and [are] enthusiastic free marketeers and praising Americans" (Z Magazine, 10/95). Chomsky's imagery is heavily indebted to the same U.S. corporate political culture he so frequently criticizes on other issues. In his mind, the revolution was betrayed by a coterie of"communist thugs" who merely hunger for power rather than wanting the power to end hunger. In fact, the communists did not "very quickly" switch to the Right but struggled in the face of a momentous onslaught to keep Soviet socialism alive for more than seventy years. To be sure, in the Soviet Union's waning days some, like Boris Yeltsin, crossed over to capitalist ranks, but others continued to resist free-market incursions at great cost to themselves, many meeting their deaths during Ye ltsin's violent repression of the Russian parliament in 1993. Some leftists and others fall back on the old stereotype of powerhungry Reds who pursue power for power's sake without regard for actual social goals. If true, one wonders why, in country after country, these Reds side with the poor and powerless often at great risk and sacrifice to themselves, rather than reaping the rewards that come with serving the well-placed. For decades, many left-leaning writers and speakers in the United States have fe lt obliged to establish their credibility by indulging in anticommunist and anti-Soviet genuflection, seemingly unable to give a talk or write an article or book review on whatever political subject without injecting some anti-Red sideswipe. The intent was, and still is, to distance themselves from the Marxist-Leninist Left. quote:According to Noam Chomsky, communism "was a monstrosity," and "the collapse of tyranny" in Eastern Europe and Russia is "an occasion for rejoicing for anyone who values freedom and human dignity."6 I treasure freedom and human dignity yet find no occasion for rejoicing. The postcommunist societies do not represent a net gain for such values. If anything, the breakup of the communist states has brought a colossal victory for global capitalism and imperialism, with its correlative increase in human misery, and a historic setback for revolutionary liberation struggles everywhere. There will be harder times ahead even for modestly reformist nationalist governments, as the fate of Panama and Iraq have indicated. The breakup also means a net loss of global pluralism and a more intensive socio-economic inequality throughout the world.7 The peoples of Eastern Europe believed they were going to keep all the social gains they had enjoyed under communism while adding on all the consumerism of the We st. Many of their grievances about existing socialism were justified but their romanticized image of the capitalist West was not. They had to learn the hard way. Expecting to advance from Second World to First World status, they have been rammed down into the Third World, ending up like capitalist Indonesia, Mexico, Zaire, and Tu rkey. They wanted it all and have been left with almost nothing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:29
|
|
|
Epic High Five posted:That's not actually what it is about i'm pretty sure i know what i'm talking about. i drive without a license and share everything i shoplift. that's anarchism.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:30
|
|
|
pnac attack posted:i'm pretty sure i know what i'm talking about. i drive without a license and share everything i shoplift. that's anarchism. Sure thing fed, you forgot the dumpster bagel
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 06:32
|
|
|
xtal posted:Sure thing fed, you forgot the dumpster bagel it must be nice living in a post-scarcity paradise where the employees pass those up
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 07:02
|
|
|
xtal posted:The key word is "unjust" hierarchy, if it's one that's opted into (like a teacher and student) then it's fine. States on the other hand don't care about your consent. what is a "just" hierarchy? how is a hierarchy justified? what justifies it? whose justice?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 07:34
|
|
|
xtal posted:Speaking of big words, does anyone have a MLM criticism of Chomsky to share? Aside from the Harper letter. I've got a bad feeling about that guy. read parenti also just wanna say that "justice" is fake and anybody arguing about it is deeply confused. the point of Marxism is that post-agricultural human society is made of classes which are large organisms that eat each other. the working/peasant/colonized class is the least insane and cancer-riddled class so the goal is to convince it to eat the other classes. that's literally it
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 07:40
|
|
|
or really "justice"-seeking is an instinct that causes humans to enact emergent behavior like lynch mobs and mass incarceration and fascism it's sorta like ants leaving trails of pheromones. no ant is in charge of foraging, they all just do their own thing. but over time, they tend to congregate around discarded bananas. similarly, no human is in charge of "justice", it's just a vague sense we have that we tend the follow. but unfortunately this behavior is much less adaptive than discarded banana seeking. it has loads of deleterious consequences when you have more than a small band of humans hanging around. of course if you can't get enough distance from your own brain to grasp this fact you will probably be stuck being an anarchist forever
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 07:49
|
|
|
Top City Homo posted:what is a "just" hierarchy? This is why Marx was so critical of the utopian socialists/anarchists of his day when they appealed to concepts like justice or inalienable rights or whatever. These concepts - or at least the modern expressions of them - were developed by the bourgeoisie and will tend to reinforce bourgeois dominance. If your ideal society is built on bourgeois ideology then it's doomed to reproduce the exploitative class relationships that you're already living under.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 08:56
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:what are you talking about there's no slaves it would be like a hippy festival. obviously capitalism and slavery are not allowed in any of the zones jeez wow, that no rules zone concept sure fell apart in an awful hurry now i wonder why that might be 
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 09:10
|
|
|
animist posted:or really "justice"-seeking is an instinct that causes humans to enact emergent behavior like lynch mobs and mass incarceration and fascism i think that instinct is who we are and actually pretty dope until some shitlord tries to organize it. hanging around with a small band of humans and spending time in your own brain is dope too. everything's chill until there's room for a middleman to rule/school/fool ya because it only takes one and it's a tragically effective strat. i have never read a book about any ideology and don't plan to. i only trust music. treat this post like anarchy could work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNKL0LKCLZc
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 10:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 01:58 |
|
|
pnac attack posted:there sure are a lot of big words in here, but if you ask me anarchism is all about being motivated by love instead of fear and trusting in human beings innate drive to be a good part of a greater whole you should read up on early anarchist opinions on Jews "following instinct" is just a recipe for provincialism
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2021 12:26
|
|