[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

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indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Ferrinus posted:

well, the "who knows" is us if we've done a proper analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the prevailing mode of production. what can beat or outproduce masses of industrial workers cooperating to produce exchange-values for a private employer? masses of industrial workers cooperating to produce use-values for themselves

or probably robots in 50-75 years

# ? Jul 17, 2021 23:52

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# ? May 25, 2024 22:51

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

indigi posted:

or probably robots in 50-75 years

Only labor produces value

# ? Jul 17, 2021 23:59

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

indigi posted:

it doesn�t say that though, it says it characterized left thought throughout the 20th century. where did it rise to, super-characterization? meta-characterization?

think what you will about whether they characterize left thought or not, but if the blurb mentions Theodor Adorno and Walter Benjamin, and if you have no clue why they might have felt a sense of loss, go on and have a gander at their Wkip�dia pages and then it might be clearer.

# ? Jul 18, 2021 01:42

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

indigi posted:

or probably robots in 50-75 years

that just displaces the question to who's operating the robots and to what purpose. i'm going to quote one of my favorite posts by uncop from a d&d thread (emphasis mine):

uncop posted:

It feels like y'all are just finding ways to make socialism sound like it's supposed to be this exciting high-stakes millenarian turnaround in order to assign artificial meaningfulness to the debate. But socialism is simple and boring. It's downright anti-excitement, mainly alleviating stressful uncertainties and providing people that bit more control over their lives. Things are going to stay the same much more so than they are going to change, people themselves would still be greedy and shortsighted assholes and so on.

The thing is, under capitalism the greed of 80-90% of the people counts for next to nothing. They can't accumulate much, no matter how greedy and self-serving they are as people. They don't become captains of industry, they work menial jobs for little pay until their health fails like everyone else does, both the saints and the sinners. People's individual vices or "human nature" have never ever decided what society looks like.

The question that decides everything is: how do people have to be organized in order to outproduce and militarily defeat the dominant mode of production and social organization? A successful socialist society can only be organized along those lines: it has to take what works in capitalist society and replace what doesn't with something more effective. It cannot start out as a nice society of nice people at all, it's necessarily going to be a rather harsh society marked by a generational trauma about the preceding violent and chaotic times.

Ultimately, the ability to force others to do as you do is all that really matters. Marxism just predicts that at this point in history, no one could materially defeat a society where industrial workers are the ones forcing their will on everyone else. It doesn't imagine those workers' better nature to be in charge at all, it predicts their naked self-interest and hatred and vices and fears to lead them to force everyone to build and join classless societies.

# ? Jul 18, 2021 01:47

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Ferrinus posted:

that just displaces the question to who's operating the robots and to what purpose.

probably the bourgeoisie, to strengthen their dictatorship. but I wouldn�t be surprised if China figures it out first and hopefully the CCP is committed to building international socialism 🙏

# ? Jul 18, 2021 02:00

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

Ferrinus posted:

that just displaces the question to who's operating the robots and to what purpose. i'm going to quote one of my favorite posts by uncop from a d&d thread (emphasis mine):

I think you�re missing the point. the only ways to increase the accumulation of surplus value are by lengthening the working day, increasing intensity (working people harder/faster), or increasing efficiency. the problem with that third option, automation, is that it just spreads value more thinly, as the same amount of labor now produces a greater quantity of commodities. it�s literally the �make it up on volume� approach to capitalism.

# ? Jul 18, 2021 02:07

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Centrist Committee posted:

I think you�re missing the point. the only ways to increase the accumulation of surplus value are by lengthening the working day, increasing intensity (working people harder/faster), or increasing efficiency. the problem with that third option, automation, is that it just spreads value more thinly, as the same amount of labor now produces a greater quantity of commodities. it�s literally the �make it up on volume� approach to capitalism.

yes, i know. we are talking about the alleged inevitability of socialism succeeding capitalism, and i am saying that automation does not make a difference to the prognosis (in fact it only makes it more likely, since heightened productivity sharpens the contradiction between the mode and relations of production that only socialism can resolve)

# ? Jul 18, 2021 02:29

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

results for �lenin kindle� on Amazon

I�d love to know who is sponsoring that

# ? Jul 19, 2021 00:57

Algund Eenboom: May 4, 2014

animist posted:

idk, assuming that we can enumerate all the different phases of human society ahead of time has always seemed a little naive to me. capitalism can certainly change form, and who knows what other weird poo poo could show up.

then again i have no idea what those other phases could be. i just think there's a whole lotta degrees of freedom to reality, yk?

This is why stages of society have to be thought of in terms of their relationship to the productive forces and property relations

- the "primitive" communist phase (property relations are regulated in terms of tribe, clan and kinship; since these relations are stultifying, where they are weaker, development towards the next phase is higher)
- the tributary phase (development both allows for and requires a new form of rationality, seen in the domination of ideology like monotheism; this results in property relations lets the dominant class control property and levy a tribute on laborers of that property; and where the hold of tributary ideology is weakest, such as france, the low countries and england, development towards the next phase is higher)
-the capitalist phase (base and superstructure are flipped, and now the base, economism, replaces ideology as the underlying rationality; now the property that is of most importance is not land but the means of production, and economic exchange replaces tribute)

# ? Jul 19, 2021 05:23

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

animist posted:

idk, assuming that we can enumerate all the different phases of human society ahead of time has always seemed a little naive to me. capitalism can certainly change form, and who knows what other weird poo poo could show up.

then again i have no idea what those other phases could be. i just think there's a whole lotta degrees of freedom to reality, yk?

in addition to Algund's good post we can't enumerate anything beyond communism as capital subjects. the dialectical process never stops but we have no idea, and can barely guess, what the tensions in communism will be and what will resolve them. To us communism is the final stage of history because it resolves class conflict as the driver of human history, but to communists communism would only be the first stage of human history after a horrific and barbaric infancy.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 16:59

John Charity Spring: Nov 4, 2009; SCREEEEE

https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1417188211500077076

chaos posting

# ? Jul 19, 2021 19:23

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

lmao I love this guy

# ? Jul 19, 2021 19:31

mcclay: Jul 8, 2013; Oh dear oh gosh oh darn; Soiled Meat

king

# ? Jul 19, 2021 19:41

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

HiHo ChiRho posted:

# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:14

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

John Charity Spring posted:

https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1417188211500077076

chaos posting

I could see him getting cast as Trotsky

# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:19

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

gradenko_2000 posted:

I could see him getting cast as Trotsky

too much upper body strength

# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:26

John Charity Spring: Nov 4, 2009; SCREEEEE

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

too much upper body strength

but exactly annoying enough

# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:40

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

John Charity Spring posted:

but exactly annoying enough

The perfect Trotsky is Timoth�e Chalamet.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:50

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Cumberbatch would be a good Zinoviev

# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:57

wynott dunn: Aug 9, 2006; What is to be done?

Who or what can challenge, and stand a chance at beating, the corporate juggernauts dominating the world?

Stalin Cumberbitch

# ? Jul 19, 2021 21:06

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Pener Kropoopkin posted:

The perfect Trotsky is Timoth�e Chalamet.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 21:17

Yossarian-22: Oct 26, 2014

mawarannahr posted:

# ? Jul 19, 2021 21:24

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

Algund Eenboom posted:

This is why stages of society have to be thought of in terms of their relationship to the productive forces and property relations

- the "primitive" communist phase (property relations are regulated in terms of tribe, clan and kinship; since these relations are stultifying, where they are weaker, development towards the next phase is higher)
- the tributary phase (development both allows for and requires a new form of rationality, seen in the domination of ideology like monotheism; this results in property relations lets the dominant class control property and levy a tribute on laborers of that property; and where the hold of tributary ideology is weakest, such as france, the low countries and england, development towards the next phase is higher)
-the capitalist phase (base and superstructure are flipped, and now the base, economism, replaces ideology as the underlying rationality; now the property that is of most importance is not land but the means of production, and economic exchange replaces tribute)

maybe a stupid question but is profit basically a tax then? under feudalism, you pay tax to the king to use the land they control. under capitalism, you pay tax to the owner to use the means of production they control.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:07

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Peasants could still claim a share of their own produce, but capitalists own both the capital and the products of its production.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:19

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

a fun part of volume 1 is when marx points out that workers just get paid this year with a fraction of the very same same profits they generated last year. it's exploitation all the way down

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:23

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

Zodium posted:

maybe a stupid question but is profit basically a tax then? under feudalism, you pay tax to the king to use the land they control. under capitalism, you pay tax to the owner to use the means of production they control.

It's not a tax because you don't keep ANY of what you produce. If you work in a pants factory, you don't get to keep any of the pants. You make clothing for the factory owner who sells them and uses that money to pay the worker. This is an important distinction because the worker never gets to own any of the commodities at all and has no interest in producing more or better pants short of getting penalized for a bad job.

Under feudalism, you'd grow crops on the lord's land, but you'd own what you produced and a portion of that food is paid to the lord. Obviously, you want to grow the best potatoes even if a share of them gets taken away because you get to keep all the left-overs.

Edit: it's an important distinction for a whole lotta reasons, that was just the one that popped into my head first.

Cpt_Obvious has issued a correction as of 22:37 on Jul 19, 2021

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:26

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

this is why a lot of rhetoric about "neo-feudalism" is catchy but not correct. even if we go full-on worryfree cradle-to-grave corporate barracks you're still not a serf because nothing you use or make is under your control at any point

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:37

Zodium: Jun 19, 2004

thanks, that makes sense

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:43

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Ferrinus posted:

this is why a lot of rhetoric about "neo-feudalism" is catchy but not correct. even if we go full-on worryfree cradle-to-grave corporate barracks you're still not a serf because nothing you use or make is under your control at any point

i think it's still useful for highlighting that the owners of capital today can treat the law of the land as optional, just like feudal lords. they are treated with leniency due to the hero-worship they get, they can lobby to change laws to benefit themselves, they can buy caribbean islands to escape normie morality, and if worst comes to worst they can escape the law by living in exile, roman polanski style

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:46

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

Enjoy posted:

i think it's still useful for highlighting that the owners of capital today can treat the law of the land as optional, just like feudal lords. they are treated with leniency due to the hero-worship they get, they can lobby to change laws to benefit themselves, they can buy caribbean islands to escape normie morality, and if worst comes to worst they can escape the law by living in exile, roman polanski style

that�s just capitalism tho

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:49

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

https://twitter.com/machinepix/status/1417240120210726918?s=21

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:51

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Cpt_Obvious posted:

It's not a tax because you don't keep ANY of what you produce. If you work in a pants factory, you don't get to keep any of the pants. You make clothing for the factory owner who sells them and uses that money to pay the worker. This is an important distinction because the worker never gets to own any of the commodities at all and has no interest in producing more or better pants short of getting penalized for a bad job.

a capitalist would say I have an interest in making good pants to get a raise or promotion (or in figuring out how to make such good pants I start my own pants making business). also I don�t want to keep that many pairs of pants anyway, most of the time I�d rather have money

# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:56

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

indigi posted:

a capitalist would say I have an interest in making good pants to get a raise or promotion

lol

# ? Jul 19, 2021 23:11

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Centrist Committee posted:

that�s just capitalism tho

sure but there have been periods where the distribution of wealth has been less extreme so the disparity in political power has also been less extreme

# ? Jul 19, 2021 23:21

Cpt_Obvious: Jun 18, 2007

So, how similar is your average Etsy crafter or YouTuber to a serf?

They own the means of production and the product (for example, a sewing machine and thread or camera and computer) just like the serf owns the hoe and mule, but pay to use the capitalists method of distribution similar to how a serf pays to use a feudal lord's land.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 23:42

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

Cpt_Obvious posted:

So, how similar is your average Etsy crafter or YouTuber to a serf?

They literally have more in common with the craftsmen of market cities.

# ? Jul 19, 2021 23:58

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

and Etsy would take the role of shop master/owner? that makes sense

# ? Jul 20, 2021 00:02

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

Enjoy posted:

sure but there have been periods where the distribution of wealth has been less extreme so the disparity in political power has also been less extreme

half of Capital is about how capitalists constant fought the Factory Acts to get younger, smaller, nimbler children to work terrible machines for more of the day

# ? Jul 20, 2021 00:03

Pener Kropoopkin: Jan 30, 2013

indigi posted:

and Etsy would take the role of shop master/owner? that makes sense

Yeah, same for google taking its cut of ad revenues. All that's missing is the guild system.

# ? Jul 20, 2021 00:21

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# ? May 25, 2024 22:51

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

mawarannahr posted:

thus instead of witnessing a dramatic gesture indicating a historic breach, we watched a sorry figure poo poo their pants

# ? Jul 20, 2021 00:55

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