(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Ferrinus posted:well, the "who knows" is us if we've done a proper analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the prevailing mode of production. what can beat or outproduce masses of industrial workers cooperating to produce exchange-values for a private employer? masses of industrial workers cooperating to produce use-values for themselves or probably robots in 50-75 years
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# ? Jul 17, 2021 23:52 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 21:14 |
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indigi posted:or probably robots in 50-75 years Only labor produces value
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# ? Jul 17, 2021 23:59 |
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indigi posted:it doesn’t say that though, it says it characterized left thought throughout the 20th century. where did it rise to, super-characterization? meta-characterization? think what you will about whether they characterize left thought or not, but if the blurb mentions Theodor Adorno and Walter Benjamin, and if you have no clue why they might have felt a sense of loss, go on and have a gander at their Wkipædia pages and then it might be clearer.
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# ? Jul 18, 2021 01:42 |
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indigi posted:or probably robots in 50-75 years that just displaces the question to who's operating the robots and to what purpose. i'm going to quote one of my favorite posts by uncop from a d&d thread (emphasis mine): uncop posted:It feels like y'all are just finding ways to make socialism sound like it's supposed to be this exciting high-stakes millenarian turnaround in order to assign artificial meaningfulness to the debate. But socialism is simple and boring. It's downright anti-excitement, mainly alleviating stressful uncertainties and providing people that bit more control over their lives. Things are going to stay the same much more so than they are going to change, people themselves would still be greedy and shortsighted assholes and so on.
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# ? Jul 18, 2021 01:47 |
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Ferrinus posted:that just displaces the question to who's operating the robots and to what purpose. probably the bourgeoisie, to strengthen their dictatorship. but I wouldn’t be surprised if China figures it out first and hopefully the CCP is committed to building international socialism 🙏
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# ? Jul 18, 2021 02:00 |
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Ferrinus posted:that just displaces the question to who's operating the robots and to what purpose. i'm going to quote one of my favorite posts by uncop from a d&d thread (emphasis mine): I think you’re missing the point. the only ways to increase the accumulation of surplus value are by lengthening the working day, increasing intensity (working people harder/faster), or increasing efficiency. the problem with that third option, automation, is that it just spreads value more thinly, as the same amount of labor now produces a greater quantity of commodities. it’s literally the “make it up on volume” approach to capitalism.
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# ? Jul 18, 2021 02:07 |
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Centrist Committee posted:I think you’re missing the point. the only ways to increase the accumulation of surplus value are by lengthening the working day, increasing intensity (working people harder/faster), or increasing efficiency. the problem with that third option, automation, is that it just spreads value more thinly, as the same amount of labor now produces a greater quantity of commodities. it’s literally the “make it up on volume” approach to capitalism. yes, i know. we are talking about the alleged inevitability of socialism succeeding capitalism, and i am saying that automation does not make a difference to the prognosis (in fact it only makes it more likely, since heightened productivity sharpens the contradiction between the mode and relations of production that only socialism can resolve)
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# ? Jul 18, 2021 02:29 |
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results for “lenin kindle” on Amazon I’d love to know who is sponsoring that
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 00:57 |
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animist posted:idk, assuming that we can enumerate all the different phases of human society ahead of time has always seemed a little naive to me. capitalism can certainly change form, and who knows what other weird poo poo could show up. This is why stages of society have to be thought of in terms of their relationship to the productive forces and property relations - the "primitive" communist phase (property relations are regulated in terms of tribe, clan and kinship; since these relations are stultifying, where they are weaker, development towards the next phase is higher) - the tributary phase (development both allows for and requires a new form of rationality, seen in the domination of ideology like monotheism; this results in property relations lets the dominant class control property and levy a tribute on laborers of that property; and where the hold of tributary ideology is weakest, such as france, the low countries and england, development towards the next phase is higher) -the capitalist phase (base and superstructure are flipped, and now the base, economism, replaces ideology as the underlying rationality; now the property that is of most importance is not land but the means of production, and economic exchange replaces tribute)
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 05:23 |
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animist posted:idk, assuming that we can enumerate all the different phases of human society ahead of time has always seemed a little naive to me. capitalism can certainly change form, and who knows what other weird poo poo could show up. in addition to Algund's good post we can't enumerate anything beyond communism as capital subjects. the dialectical process never stops but we have no idea, and can barely guess, what the tensions in communism will be and what will resolve them. To us communism is the final stage of history because it resolves class conflict as the driver of human history, but to communists communism would only be the first stage of human history after a horrific and barbaric infancy.
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 16:59 |
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https://twitter.com/asatarbair/status/1417188211500077076 chaos posting
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 19:23 |
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lmao I love this guy
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 19:31 |
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king
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 19:41 |
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:14 |
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I could see him getting cast as Trotsky
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:19 |
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gradenko_2000 posted:I could see him getting cast as Trotsky too much upper body strength
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:26 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:too much upper body strength but exactly annoying enough
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:40 |
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John Charity Spring posted:but exactly annoying enough The perfect Trotsky is Timothée Chalamet.
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:50 |
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Cumberbatch would be a good Zinoviev
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 20:57 |
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Stalin Cumberbitch
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 21:06 |
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The perfect Trotsky is Timothée Chalamet.
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 21:17 |
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 21:24 |
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Algund Eenboom posted:This is why stages of society have to be thought of in terms of their relationship to the productive forces and property relations maybe a stupid question but is profit basically a tax then? under feudalism, you pay tax to the king to use the land they control. under capitalism, you pay tax to the owner to use the means of production they control.
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:07 |
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Peasants could still claim a share of their own produce, but capitalists own both the capital and the products of its production.
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:19 |
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a fun part of volume 1 is when marx points out that workers just get paid this year with a fraction of the very same same profits they generated last year. it's exploitation all the way down
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:23 |
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Zodium posted:maybe a stupid question but is profit basically a tax then? under feudalism, you pay tax to the king to use the land they control. under capitalism, you pay tax to the owner to use the means of production they control. It's not a tax because you don't keep ANY of what you produce. If you work in a pants factory, you don't get to keep any of the pants. You make clothing for the factory owner who sells them and uses that money to pay the worker. This is an important distinction because the worker never gets to own any of the commodities at all and has no interest in producing more or better pants short of getting penalized for a bad job. Under feudalism, you'd grow crops on the lord's land, but you'd own what you produced and a portion of that food is paid to the lord. Obviously, you want to grow the best potatoes even if a share of them gets taken away because you get to keep all the left-overs. Edit: it's an important distinction for a whole lotta reasons, that was just the one that popped into my head first. Cpt_Obvious has issued a correction as of 22:37 on Jul 19, 2021 |
# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:26 |
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this is why a lot of rhetoric about "neo-feudalism" is catchy but not correct. even if we go full-on worryfree cradle-to-grave corporate barracks you're still not a serf because nothing you use or make is under your control at any point
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:37 |
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thanks, that makes sense
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:43 |
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Ferrinus posted:this is why a lot of rhetoric about "neo-feudalism" is catchy but not correct. even if we go full-on worryfree cradle-to-grave corporate barracks you're still not a serf because nothing you use or make is under your control at any point i think it's still useful for highlighting that the owners of capital today can treat the law of the land as optional, just like feudal lords. they are treated with leniency due to the hero-worship they get, they can lobby to change laws to benefit themselves, they can buy caribbean islands to escape normie morality, and if worst comes to worst they can escape the law by living in exile, roman polanski style
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:46 |
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Enjoy posted:i think it's still useful for highlighting that the owners of capital today can treat the law of the land as optional, just like feudal lords. they are treated with leniency due to the hero-worship they get, they can lobby to change laws to benefit themselves, they can buy caribbean islands to escape normie morality, and if worst comes to worst they can escape the law by living in exile, roman polanski style that’s just capitalism tho
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:49 |
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https://twitter.com/machinepix/status/1417240120210726918?s=21
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:51 |
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Cpt_Obvious posted:It's not a tax because you don't keep ANY of what you produce. If you work in a pants factory, you don't get to keep any of the pants. You make clothing for the factory owner who sells them and uses that money to pay the worker. This is an important distinction because the worker never gets to own any of the commodities at all and has no interest in producing more or better pants short of getting penalized for a bad job. a capitalist would say I have an interest in making good pants to get a raise or promotion (or in figuring out how to make such good pants I start my own pants making business). also I don’t want to keep that many pairs of pants anyway, most of the time I’d rather have money
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 22:56 |
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indigi posted:a capitalist would say I have an interest in making good pants to get a raise or promotion lol
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 23:11 |
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Centrist Committee posted:that’s just capitalism tho sure but there have been periods where the distribution of wealth has been less extreme so the disparity in political power has also been less extreme
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 23:21 |
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So, how similar is your average Etsy crafter or YouTuber to a serf? They own the means of production and the product (for example, a sewing machine and thread or camera and computer) just like the serf owns the hoe and mule, but pay to use the capitalists method of distribution similar to how a serf pays to use a feudal lord's land.
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 23:42 |
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Cpt_Obvious posted:So, how similar is your average Etsy crafter or YouTuber to a serf? They literally have more in common with the craftsmen of market cities.
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# ? Jul 19, 2021 23:58 |
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and Etsy would take the role of shop master/owner? that makes sense
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# ? Jul 20, 2021 00:02 |
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Enjoy posted:sure but there have been periods where the distribution of wealth has been less extreme so the disparity in political power has also been less extreme half of Capital is about how capitalists constant fought the Factory Acts to get younger, smaller, nimbler children to work terrible machines for more of the day
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# ? Jul 20, 2021 00:03 |
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indigi posted:and Etsy would take the role of shop master/owner? that makes sense Yeah, same for google taking its cut of ad revenues. All that's missing is the guild system.
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# ? Jul 20, 2021 00:21 |
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# ? May 25, 2024 21:14 |
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thus instead of witnessing a dramatic gesture indicating a historic breach, we watched a sorry figure poo poo their pants
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# ? Jul 20, 2021 00:55 |