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Kurzon posted:Why not? Some people are more susceptible to anger or lust. Ethnocentrism is not exactly the same concept as aggression. Or sexual drive.
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Jul 20, 2021 17:13
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indiscriminately posted:You can expand if you like. I don't delight in social commentary that picks out the worst specimen from a group and then projects their attitudes, impulses, reasoning on the whole group. It's not just that it's unsavory, it's also that it's unsound as a basis for understanding a social issue IMO. There is variance within a group. And the individuals who take part in batshit social movements are just as complicated, turbulent, inconsistent inside as you and me.  oddly I don’t feel compelled or obligated to be perfectly granular in my understanding of every single individual in the undeniably-present and earth-shatteringly dangerous demographic which is dedicated to exterminating myself and my children due to our exceeding variance limits for normativity, in order to satisfy condescending and sanctimonious forums postersif you can say poo poo like this in earnest maybe it would behoove you to find some of the folks in your communities who have survived being born into or caught up in Dominionist spaces and gain some perspective. this poo poo is real, lives and futures of actual human beings targeted by these motherfuckers are at stake, and insisting on reifying the experiences of people who are dedicated to unpersoning the marginalized is a really loving gross and very telling move also, rofl at the idea that what I’m describing is projecting the worst behaviors present in this group as uniform, I am making a series of too-kind generalizations for the sake of discussing and understanding a set of social dynamics. the worst individuals caught up in Katamari Brainworms would require multiple pages of vividly-described cruelty ranging from the petty to the grandiose just to get framing down e: Kurzon posted:Why not? Some people are more susceptible to anger or lust. If you’re going to try and use a ‘why not?’ to support your shitposted assertion, it would behoove you to have some kind of understanding, yourself, of the possible answers to this question which will immediately spring to mind in anyone who’s got a high school level understanding of the topic of which, for your question, there are many. Up-or-down-regulation of dozens or hundreds of neurotransmitters is a little bit too complex to point at and say “this makes u more vulnerable to fetishizing cruelty and worshiping hate,” especially when learned behaviors and trauma responses from childhood are So Much More Significant to behavior than biological start conditions. Or in short: you’re visibly operating on CHUD logic, there, my goon LonsomeSon fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Jul 20, 2021 |
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Jul 20, 2021 17:37
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There isn't really much need to understand a group where every single member is a terrible person. I mean if you are interested in that on an academic level or for your own interested amusement, sure. But when the best specimen from a group is still a complete failure of basic morals and human potential, your average person doesn't really have any need to dig any deeper. For example: QAnonists.
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Jul 20, 2021 17:53
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LonsomeSon posted:in order to satisfy condescending and sanctimonious forums posters
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Jul 20, 2021 17:59
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I generally tend to think that people who are free from the clutches of the economic depression that is the primary driver of working-class momentum in a capitalist society gives them less of an opportunity/reason to create an "other" to blame for the ills of society. the gays/the ay-rabs/the mexie-cans can't take your healthcare/income/dinner away if economic conditions dictate that there is plenty of food/healthcare/income to go around if we'd just distribute it at a federal level instead of living in a feudal society where marginalized people and straight white males now get fed into the same meat grinder. I'm not arguing against the idea that marginalized people have it harder - they absolutely do and an auxiliary other is largely a necessary function of class oppression to persist (to redirect the angst of the oppressed majority into blaming and oppressing a vulnerable minority) but bringing our trans/queer/nonwhite allies up to the majority level of suffering is only an opening skirmish. like, ok, we ran the gaspee aground, now we need to actually loving torch it. we don't have a just and equitable society because now trans people can have their lives sacrificed on the blood altar of capitalism somewhere in the middle east because raytheon needs a ground offensive somewhere in order to keep to its Q3 projections. To kind of tie it all into the conspiratorial theme, here's some interesting reading I came across while doing my own searching on links between socioeconomic conditions and vulnerability to conspiratorial thinking. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0963721417718261 quote:Existential Motives https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2021.646394/full quote:The extent to which people believe in COVID-19 conspiracy theories and misinformation varies significantly across the various geographical regions as well as by socio-demographic characteristics. The Philippines, United States, and Hong Kong ranked as the top three for beliefs in conspiracy theories and misinformation. Significantly lower scores for both beliefs were found for Switzerland, Canada and New Zealand and Belgium. This finding suggests that citizens of specific countries in our dataset (Philippines, Hong Kong, and the U.S.) are more susceptible to these narratives while others (Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland, and Belgium) are more resilient. https://www.dahrendorf-forum.eu/to-combat-conspiracy-theories-fight-social-decay-and-inequality/ quote:Periods of economic unrest frequently coincide with rising interest in conspiracy theories. As the historian Eric Hobsbawm argues, during the nineteenth century, the rise of apocalyptic and conspiratorial theories during the Industrial Revolution demonstrated an “incapacity to deal with the earthquakes of society which were breaking down men’s lives.” As the “fourth industrial revolution” again alters our relationship to the economy and each other, it is no wonder that we see a rise in conspiracism. I'm not a media lit professor or anything fancy so I don't have access to the scholarly articles these summaries draw from, but I found them to be fairly compelling, at least as a layperson.
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Jul 20, 2021 18:17
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https://mobile.twitter.com/debdrens/status/1417472760096428033 And these are the types of people who complain about how they are alone on holidays because their families have cut off all contact with them for some wild reason. Sickening.
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Jul 21, 2021 03:46
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LonsomeSon posted:Draw a line through US history between the witch trials and QAnon, and it passes directly through the eugenics laws, the Lavendar Scare, and the Satanic Panic without bending once. Eugenics laws were the one of the major planks of the early-20th century progressive movement. The same folks who gave us trust-busting, women's suffrage, prohibition, child labor laws, etc. Unfortunately, the good intentions of the movement and its core philosophy of the ability of government to create a better society allowed it to fall prey to the eugenicist's lies about the ability to perfect the human race. This major flaw in early progressivism is an important lessons that we modern progressives need to learn to make sure that we aren't unintentionally falling for some contemporary evil that is disguising itself as a benefit for society. My point in bringing this up is to say that trying to draw a straight line through every lovely thing that has happened in the country's past ends up flattening out all of the real history and the lessons that can be learned from it.
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Jul 21, 2021 13:20
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IPlayVideoGames posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/debdrens/status/1417472760096428033 The amount of (grown-up, self-sufficient) people who haven't cut off all contact with these types of people in that subreddit is way too high (0<)
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Jul 21, 2021 14:12
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Kurzon posted:Oh FFS, go ask a priest if it bugs you so much. I bet priests have to deal with this question all the time, they already have a prepared answer for you. Yeah their prepared answer is always "just stop asking questions and have faith" so your answer is functionally indistinguishable in that way
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Jul 21, 2021 22:11
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LanceHunter posted:Eugenics laws were the one of the major planks of the early-20th century progressive movement. The same folks who gave us trust-busting, women's suffrage, prohibition, child labor laws, etc. Unfortunately, the good intentions of the movement and its core philosophy of the ability of government to create a better society allowed it to fall prey to the eugenicist's lies about the ability to perfect the human race. This major flaw in early progressivism is an important lessons that we modern progressives need to learn to make sure that we aren't unintentionally falling for some contemporary evil that is disguising itself as a benefit for society.
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Jul 21, 2021 22:40
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DarkCrawler posted:Also if there are no other gods, what would he be jealous about? Not to start a derail, but the traditions in Exodus (according to most scholars in the field) don't actually deny the existence of other gods. Exodus essentially tells the story of how YHWH singles out the Jews as his chosen people, and he forms a covenant with them that he demands they adhere to. The way Exodus describes other deities don't really imply they're not in existence, only that they're weaker, or powerless against YHWH in particular. (I am super-fascinated in the creation of the Hebrew Bible so that's why I decided to go back to this. Now back to your regular QAnon horseshit).
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Jul 21, 2021 22:48
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Trazz posted:Yeah their prepared answer is always "just stop asking questions and have faith" so your answer is functionally indistinguishable in that way I'm sorry the priests you've interacted with suck. I'm only Anglican by the most pedantic of technicalities these days (which is, to be fair, very Anglican  ) but all the priests at the church I grew up in have been rad, kind, and intellectual.
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Jul 21, 2021 23:00
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I'm sorry the priests you've interacted with suck. I'm only Anglican by the most pedantic of technicalities these days (which is, to be fair, very Anglican Okay so they say "just stop asking questions and have faith" but in a "rad, kind" way, and all the "intellectual" Christians I've ever met still can't ever give me any answer aside from "you just gotta have faith, I can never admit that I'm wrong"
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Jul 21, 2021 23:14
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Imagine accusing your own son of taking part in a fake school shooting. What, does the old man suspect someone swapped out his kid for a crisis actor or (more likely) I guess teh school brainwashed him into taking part in it so we can do a socialism and/or take everyone's guns or something. So often I find myself saying "this can't be real" and it almost always is. We're staring down a fourth wave of covid with 2 mutated strains specifically because CHUDS won't get a vaccine shot because microchips and freedom. It's unreal.
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Jul 21, 2021 23:20
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Trazz posted:Okay so they say "just stop asking questions and have faith" but in a "rad, kind" way, and all the "intellectual" Christians I've ever met still can't ever give me any answer aside from "you just gotta have faith, I can never admit that I'm wrong" It's a rare and special kind of stupid that gets someone like me on the same side of an ideological divide as a D&D mod, but loving christ this is some 14-year-old reddit atheist superstar horseshit. congratulations. GJB do what you gotta do if this is white noise, or backseat modding, or cheerleading or whatever, I ain't gonna get mad. This is just some spectacularly stupid posting.
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Jul 21, 2021 23:21
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Lib and let die posted:It's a rare and special kind of stupid that gets someone like me on the same side of an ideological divide as a D&D mod, but loving christ this is some 14-year-old reddit atheist superstar horseshit. congratulations. When you're so committed to thought-terminating cliches that you go crying to the mods because you encounter an atheist on the internet... Gonna post a fedora meme at me? Surely THIS time it'll reverse the decline of religion.
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Jul 21, 2021 23:37
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Trazz posted:When you're so committed to thought-terminating cliches that you go crying to the mods because you encounter an atheist on the internet... I used to be this kind of atheist but in my defence I was 13 and it was 20 something years ago. People don’t have to justify their faith to you.
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Jul 21, 2021 23:45
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Trazz posted:When you're so committed to thought-terminating cliches that you go crying to the mods because you encounter an atheist on the internet... People belong to churches because they like it. That’s the part I didn’t understand at 15.
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Jul 21, 2021 23:50
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That specific brand of atheism that screams "I just watched my first Dawkins debate on YouTube!!!!" is just 
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Jul 22, 2021 00:02
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Trazz posted:When you're so committed to thought-terminating cliches that you go crying to the mods because you encounter an atheist on the internet... loving lol
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Jul 22, 2021 00:09
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God did not answer my pleas on how to improve my autistic social skills in 8th grade, so I forsook him. For up in the sky, there was no heaven above, and only religious dogma back on earth. So I forsook him and refused to bow. My parents minded not.
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Jul 22, 2021 00:12
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Lib and let die posted:That specific brand of atheism that screams "I just watched my first Dawkins debate on YouTube!!!!" is just I'm 36 years old and I would literally laugh in your face if you said this to me in real life. Your refusal to engage people like me in good faith is why religion is continuing to decline. Grouchio posted:God did not answer my pleas on how to improve my autistic social skills in 8th grade, so I forsook him. For up in the sky, there was no heaven above, and only religious dogma back on earth. So I forsook him and refused to bow. My parents minded not. And you! Not believing in the imaginary does not make me autistic, and I had many arguments with my parents about this poo poo. Once again: Religion is continuing to decline, and insulting atheists will not reverse it.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:01
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Trazz posted:I'm 36 years old and I would literally laugh in your face if you said this to me in real life. Your refusal to engage people like me in good faith is why religion is continuing to decline. Do...do you think you're arguing with believers? You're being ridiculed because you can't see that there is a rainbow of shades of grey between Sunday Faithful and militant Dawkinsism, and everyone you're painting as your enemy here is most likely in the "live and let live" camp of nonbelief.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:06
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Lib and let die posted:Do...do you think you're arguing with believers? Oh sorry, thanks for clarifying that you weren't being serious, you've been downgraded from "laughing in your face" to "dismissive eyeroll and jerk-off motion with my hand" quote:militant Dawkinsism 
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Jul 22, 2021 01:09
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I remember when I was a huge Dawkins fan and now I'm embarrassed that I was ever at all interested in what that old British penis had to say.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:17
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36 years old. Amazing.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:19
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Zeroisanumber posted:I remember when I was a huge Dawkins fan and now I'm embarrassed that I was ever at all interested in what that old British penis had to say. The best part is that I've never read any of his works, it's just that invoking the name of Dawkins is just how people try and shut down assertive atheists these days
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Jul 22, 2021 01:19
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:36 years old. Amazing.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:20
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Trazz posted:I'm 36 years old and I would literally laugh in your face if you said this to me in real life. Your refusal to engage people like me in good faith is why religion is continuing to decline. Christianity maybe
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Jul 22, 2021 01:20
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Trazz posted:Oh sorry, thanks for clarifying that you weren't being serious, you've been downgraded from "laughing in your face" to "dismissive eyeroll and jerk-off motion with my hand" Dig up my man. Dig up.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:21
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Dig up my man. Dig up. When even VVG is saying this, y-all hosed up
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Jul 22, 2021 01:22
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Dig up my man. Dig up. What exactly does "digging up" entail here? I've been dealing with theists and smugnostics for like 20 years, this isn't even the worst I've seen
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Jul 22, 2021 01:25
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Trazz posted:What exactly does "digging up" entail here? I've been dealing with theists and smugnostics for like 20 years, this isn't even the worst I've seen heh this isn't even my final form
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Jul 22, 2021 01:31
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I don't think it's possible to have a discussion about conspiracy theories, especially grand unified ones like QAnon, without having to deal with the fact that it's a religion and any and all criticisms of religion are applicable, and vice versa. There are few arguments you can make about QAnon that cannot be made about Christianity or most other religions - although especially Christianity. And obviously this is further exacerbated by the fact QAnon is a deeply Christian conspiracy theory and itself the latest iteration of a line of Christian apocalyptic mania that has plagued America since before we were a nation. And, yeah, Trazz, you're right, but like, and good lord I hate to be tone police, you're also being hilariously fedoralord internet atheist about it all. I think we probably could do for a thread on discussing theism and the problems with it. It might be interesting. That said, this isn't the thread for that, and while I did just say that there's a lot of overlap, it's also overlap that's not particularly relevant to most of what's being discussed here, and it's also overlap you can ignore. Just like how there are plenty of intelligent theists who are able to recognize QAnon for insane nonsense and dismiss it accordingly. Hell, maybe we need a thread on the relationship between conspiracy theories and religion. I think that would be fascinating. Like I remember even as a kid seeing all the episodes of the X-Files where they would compare Scully's faith in religion with Mulder's faith in the paranormal and being so frustrated that they failed to connect the last few dots and point out both are equally absurd, stopping short and just painting both as equally valid. But that's neither here nor there.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:35
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lol
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Jul 22, 2021 01:35
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:I remember even as a kid seeing all the episodes of the X-Files where they would compare Scully's faith in religion with Mulder's faith in the paranormal and being so frustrated that they failed to connect the last few dots and point out both are equally absurd, stopping short and just painting both as equally valid. That was also like every episode, and the whole point of the show was to compare Scully rigid religion with her rigid dogmatic scientific view. Mulder was right because he was never blinded by dogma, it allowed him to see the truth.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:46
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Trazz posted:I'm 36 years old and I would literally laugh in your face if you said this to me in real life. Your refusal to engage people like me in good faith is why religion is continuing to decline. The decline of organized religion isn't a victory for atheists, especially since religiosity in general isn't actually in decline. The rise of poo poo like QAnon (and new age woo, and other various "spiritual but not religious" poo poo) is specifically what happens when organized religion is in decline but the majority of people still want to fulfill the religious impulse. Also, eternal  s at "I had many arguments with my parents about this poo poo". 36 years old, everyone!
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Jul 22, 2021 01:55
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:And, yeah, Trazz, you're right, but like, and good lord I hate to be tone police, you're also being hilariously fedoralord internet atheist about it all. That means nothing to me.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:56
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LanceHunter posted:The decline of organized religion isn't a victory for atheists, especially since religiosity in general isn't actually in decline. The rise of poo poo like QAnon (and new age woo, and other various "spiritual but not religious" poo poo) is specifically what happens when organized religion is in decline but the majority of people still want to fulfill the religious impulse. Yes, in my 20ish years of atheism I have in fact had many arguments about it. Most of those arguments boil down to "You're (insert x age here)?!"
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Jul 22, 2021 01:59
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Trazz posted:That means nothing to me. Clearly.
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Jul 22, 2021 02:01
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