(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:nature doesn't "actually operate dialectically" though - but I've already said that and have nothing more to add so I'll just reply to the rest of this: i'm not sure what the idea that you can use a "deeper" science to replace a "broader" science has to do with dialectics. i can't think of anyone who thinks that you can just blithely replace chemistry with particle physics, whether or not those people are marxists of any stripe. it's not like dialectics is the most foundational science of all and therefore explores all the ones that are stacked on top of it1 - it's that the fundamental principles that A) there are changing processes, not static essences and B) things transform based on the synthesis of their internal contradiction hold at any level of abstraction you want to zoom in or out to what part of nature doesn't operate dialectically? biology certainly does! thinking biology operated dialectically was not actually lysenko's mistake, because you can find more modern people like lewontin or gould who will affirm that dialectics are crucial to biology! 1 that's the immortal science of marxism-leninism, obviously
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Jul 26, 2021 21:46
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Ferrinus posted:so i don't really understand the distinction you're trying to draw between thinking dialectically and nature actually operating dialectically - the former is helpful because the latter is true, even though we're always going to have to use verbal and heuristic shortcuts as we describe things to ourselves and each other by universalizing dialectics you are equivocating in the same manner Lysenko and others did. Is it possible to elaborate the natural world as a series of dialectical relationships, like as a filter to the world? Of course, but the interpretation happens always after the fact, which is what Engels was very keen to point about, and this interpretation can be seriously wrong we know a lot of things, but there is a lot more that we don't know and infinitely more things that we are not even aware of - many of these things may require unique forms of seeing and interpreting reality that go far beyond or even may invalidate dialectics. If paradox and contradiction are part of reality, then it is materially sound that reality will have things that make dialectical materialism not work at all but of course I know very little about that stuff so maybe I am completely out of my depth here
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Jul 26, 2021 21:52
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dead gay comedy forums posted:by universalizing dialectics you are equivocating in the same manner Lysenko and others did. Is it possible to elaborate the natural world as a series of dialectical relationships, like as a filter to the world? Of course, but the interpretation happens always after the fact, which is what Engels was very keen to point about, and this interpretation can be seriously wrong one important point is that "paradox" and "contradiction" aren't the same (although people like Rand treated them as though they were in an attempt to refute dialectics). dialectics doesn't allow for square circles. so like, a part of physical reality which is not amenable to being described in dialectical terms would basically have to be divine in the classical sense, an unmoved mover or platonic form or something
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Jul 26, 2021 21:56
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This one of the most esoteric and, to be frank, retarded discussions I have ever seen in this thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 26, 2021 22:29
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Larry Parrish posted:This one of the most esoteric and, to be frank, retarded discussions I have ever seen in this thread. oh but the wonders and the sights of the great communist conventions, it's amazing poo poo really I mean, there was a practical and important sense to these discussions back then which was to get to the right philosophy, to make sure they were on the right track to solving history. Somewhat unlikely and incredibly lol-worthy, there is actual merit to this approach. Guys like Lenin and Mao were theoreticians, becoming highly successful leaders from that base. Giáp, the Vietnamese general, was a Marxist historian and teacher long before doing anything as a military leader (before any of you say anything I am going to make it very clear that this is a joke and intellectual shitposting as sport is not going to make you Lenin 2.0)
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Jul 26, 2021 22:46
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You're missing the historical in dialectical and historical materialism, it's a scientific theory pertaining politics, economics and sociology, utilizing hegelian dialectics to analyze history through it's material basis rather than the dominant ideas as hegel had, once you start using a scientific theory outside it's scope the wheels come off, marxists use it as theory informing political analysis but you can also just use it as a research method in the humanities, academics who utilize it and shy away from communist politics refer to themselves as marxologists, marxians, and other funny names. Theory provides tools for analyzing political realities but it's not the truth about everything and anything and these attempts to extend it to nature sciences were... very cringey Thankfully Lysenko got pulled later, had him been a capitalist we'd still have lovely ads for mail order vernalized seeds scamming boomers today.
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Jul 26, 2021 23:35
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bro are you really calling engels, stalin, and mao cringe
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Jul 26, 2021 23:40
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what would you like to talk about larry, whats goin on in the little man's world today
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Jul 26, 2021 23:43
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croup coughfield posted:what would you like to talk about larry, whats goin on in the little man's world today not much i just think the like. esoteric philosophical arguments just are really boring and largely pointless to this hefty gamer.
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Jul 26, 2021 23:56
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Ferrinus posted:bro are you really calling engels, stalin, and mao cringe yeah i think it was pretty cringe that they went along with some nonscientific bullshit that backfired, and thankfully communist parties worldwide took the hint, you don't hear about cuban doctors dialectically healing people because it's a loving philosophical framework not the truth about the universe
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Jul 27, 2021 00:01
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Gentlemen, you can't argue about dialectical materialism in here, this is the Marxism thread!
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Jul 27, 2021 00:40
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Gentlemen, you can't argue about dialectical materialism in here, this is the Marxism thread! i don't think it's crazy to say arguing about whether dialectical materialism is a fundamental truth of reality is in of itself not very materialist
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Jul 27, 2021 00:58
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it’s a fundamental truth of my rear end
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Jul 27, 2021 01:02
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well, I imagine you wouldn't have a favorable opinion of arguing about whether arguing about whether dialectical materialism is a fundamental truth of reality is in of itself not very materialist is in of itself not very materialist, either, so I will bow out of this discussion here
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Jul 27, 2021 01:04
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Typing up a 20 paragraph post applying 'Death of the Author' to plate tectonics.
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Jul 27, 2021 01:07
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whats the marxist view of apprenticeships in capitalist economies? is untrained labor of same value as trained labor? in the soviet union were apprentices afforded the same benefits as fully capable tradespeople?
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Jul 27, 2021 01:14
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i understand that the phrasing of those questions might be larry-worded.
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Jul 27, 2021 01:15
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Typing up a 20 paragraph post applying 'Death of the Author' to plate tectonics. death of the author is a marxist tract and that's why libs don't like it
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Jul 27, 2021 02:24
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swimsuit posted:whats the marxist view of apprenticeships in capitalist economies? untrained labor doesn't have the same value as trained labor, and one of the ways to lower the value of a commodity is to reduce the value of the labor required to make it, eg one guy turning a crank on a machine rather than assembling components in a workshop. i don't know how apprenticeship and training figured into the ussr's labor pool but i hope someone does
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Jul 27, 2021 02:26
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check out "the dialectical biologist" by richard lewontin and richard levins is all i'm saying
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Jul 27, 2021 06:47
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exmarx posted:check out "the dialectical biologist" by richard lewontin and richard levins is all i'm saying
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Jul 27, 2021 07:12
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im glad the admins have reactivated angerbeet to ruthlessly hunt me down for calling people 'moderator-brained' like the t-1000. What's wrong with the mods on this website.
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Jul 27, 2021 08:07
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Larry Parrish posted:im glad the admins have reactivated angerbeet to ruthlessly hunt me down for calling people 'moderator-brained' like the t-1000. What's wrong with the mods on this website. It's leftist persecution that's for sure
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Jul 27, 2021 08:36
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Larry Parrish posted:im glad the admins have reactivated angerbeet to ruthlessly hunt me down for calling people 'moderator-brained' like the t-1000. What's wrong with the mods on this website. they fear you will grow too strong if your have all the Words of Power
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Jul 27, 2021 13:15
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Jul 27, 2021 13:32
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Please keep Assassin's Creed Marx out of the thread thanks
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Jul 27, 2021 14:05
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https://twitter.com/eshaLegal/status/1419785074279686155
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Jul 27, 2021 14:23
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MeatwadIsGod posted:Please keep Assassin's Creed Marx out of the thread thanks Excuse me but hating the player not the game is undialectical
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Jul 27, 2021 14:41
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lol
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Jul 27, 2021 14:43
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dammit
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Jul 27, 2021 15:57
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I'll fight my inner pedant and just say that this is no surprise to anyone who's been paying any amount of attention since the fall of the soviet union. It's always been a dumb, self-sabotaging talking point whenever bootlickers try to claim that the people who lived under both prefer capitalism to aspirationally socialist systems. 
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Jul 27, 2021 16:25
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Ferrinus posted:you could characterize lysenko's flaw as voluntarism, ie thinking that because everything in nature is a process of transformation rather than a static essence then anything can be turned into anything else by just wanting it hard enough, when in fact things only transform if the resolution of their internal contradictions is also supported in the correct way by their external environment. mao's example is that you can warm an egg and see it hatch into a chicken, but will be disappointed if you warm a stone the same way A time traveler gave him a copy of the secret and he took it way too literally
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Jul 27, 2021 16:38
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I am rather surprised with the numbers from Poland, Hungary, Czechia and Lithuania for real. thought be would be far more rejection (maybe there is more now? idk) Russia there is weird, but things were better there in 2009 too, so the disillusionment hasn't happened in full yet. would it be fair to consider if responders were being pution-cautious too? (by saying things were better under communism they would be criticizing the current govt)
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Jul 27, 2021 16:40
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dead gay comedy forums posted:I am rather surprised with the numbers from Poland, Hungary, Czechia and Lithuania for real. thought be would be far more rejection (maybe there is more now? idk) Hungary was probably the best state in the eastern bloc to live in after the uprising was crushed so that one is not too surprising. I’d have thought all the neofascist Catholics in Poland were happy about the current situation tho
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Jul 27, 2021 16:48
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the Czech numbers are surprising too given what a capitalist shithole Prague has turned into but maybe everything outside Prague is better
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Jul 27, 2021 16:50
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the czech coworkers I’ve talked to on the topic tend to view prague similar to Disneyland they avoid it
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Jul 27, 2021 17:01
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yr new gurlfrand! posted:the czech coworkers I’ve talked to on the topic tend to view prague similar to Disneyland I spent two or three days in Prague and not since my last visit to LA did I feel a revulsion to my core about a city huh now I know how ra’al ghul feels about gothem
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Jul 27, 2021 17:08
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 about what makes Prague so bad come on
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Jul 27, 2021 17:19
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Stag/bachelor parties is what I've heard as a bad thing about prague. Otherwise I guess its just the typical hollowing out of a place and its culture under late capitalism? It's happening in Dublin and other cities in Europe.
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Jul 27, 2021 17:27
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let’s meet in front of the historical downtown Prague Harley-Davidson clothing store and talk about it
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Jul 27, 2021 17:46
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