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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Seamus Heaney does a good job of communicating the original sound and feel of the poem if you read it in the original. There are several accessible open free online Old English courses available. If you can wrap your head around the inflections (and if you've done any Latin, you can), vocabulary rapidly becomes the biggest obstacle.
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Jul 21, 2021 05:40
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Seamus Heaney does a good job of communicating the original sound and feel of the poem if you read it in the original. Available on YouTube, read by himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaB0trCztM0
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Jul 21, 2021 11:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Seamus Heaney does a good job of communicating the original sound and feel of the poem if you read it in the original. TBH i was expecting it to be much closer to modern english than it actually is. I only took a quick glimpse at a few verses. I'm nearly fluent in english, and have studied some swedish and german, and still found it quite foreign, so probaby not going to invest extra time to read the original. Weird that Tolkien's commentary is based on the original, yet the book contains his translation only, and not the original text. I'll check amazon to see if i find a Heany translation with footnotes or something.
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Jul 21, 2021 14:13
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The commentary and the translation aren’t directly related except insofar as they’re both products of JRRT’s study of Beowulf. Translation was done in the 20s as a fairly literal gloss in prose, commentary was compiled over the next two decades from his notes on lectures that he was giving on the original poem. It is a good commentary but was always going to have a difficulty in presentation, it’s so elliptical you could hardly append it as footnotes. Kind of weird to publish them together but I guess neither one makes a book on its own. I will say that if you wanted to learn about Old English, the Beowulf commentary will teach you a lot, since that’s precisely the purpose of the lectures from which it was taken, to teach students OE. skasion fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jul 21, 2021 |
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Jul 21, 2021 15:28
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Mr. Nemo posted:TBH i was expecting it to be much closer to modern english than it actually is. I only took a quick glimpse at a few verses. I'm nearly fluent in english, and have studied some swedish and german, and still found it quite foreign, so probaby not going to invest extra time to read the original. If you can do Swedish and German you shouldn't have much trouble at all with the Old English once you get past pronunciation basics, but I'm not going to hector you into learning Old English beyond a bit of encouragement if you're not interested. I'm working on learning it right now, coming to it having read extreme amounts of early modern English, a fair amount of middle English, small French and then like, a theoretical knowledge of Latin which I've never taken the time to improve. After about 3 weeks in of putting 30-60 minutes into per day I'm getting to pretty good reading comprehension of the language. Swedish and German puts you way ahead of me to start. The grammar is the hardest part because something like 80% of the vocabulary is just familiar English words disguised in ancient orthography and pronunciation, and you have that grammar already.
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Jul 21, 2021 15:44
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Seamus Heaney does a good job of communicating the original sound and feel of the poem if you read it in the original. There's a bilingual edition of Heaney's translation which I've got and it's really nice: https://www.amazon.com/Beowulf-Verse-Translation-Seamus-Heaney/dp/0374111197
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Jul 21, 2021 16:39
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Tangentially, I'm still slowly reading through LOTR after a break of some years. Of course I noticed a long time ago that Tolkien starts getting into more high-flown modes of speech as the story proceeds from the Shire to the South, but I think it's only this time that I realized that for the Rohirrim, he'll drop in lines of Beowulfish alliterative verse into the prose. I.e. Theoden assaulting the flag-bearer of the Haradrim, "Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer, and the black serpent foundered." It's fun to watch! I imagine Tolkien with a faint smile on his face, working those into the text. Theoden and Eomer's battle poems are also in alliterative verse, of course, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens elsewhere, but it's really noticeable with the Rohirrim sections.
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Jul 21, 2021 20:43
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Phy posted:Tangentially, I'm still slowly reading through LOTR after a break of some years. Of course I noticed a long time ago that Tolkien starts getting into more high-flown modes of speech as the story proceeds from the Shire to the South, but I think it's only this time that I realized that for the Rohirrim, he'll drop in lines of Beowulfish alliterative verse into the prose. I.e. Theoden assaulting the flag-bearer of the Haradrim, "Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer, and the black serpent foundered." It's fun to watch! I imagine Tolkien with a faint smile on his face, working those into the text. Check out how he reads Theoden's call to ride here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6jhKEqtLxM&t=419s
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Jul 21, 2021 22:52
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Phy posted:Tangentially, I'm still slowly reading through LOTR after a break of some years. Of course I noticed a long time ago that Tolkien starts getting into more high-flown modes of speech as the story proceeds from the Shire to the South, but I think it's only this time that I realized that for the Rohirrim, he'll drop in lines of Beowulfish alliterative verse into the prose. I.e. Theoden assaulting the flag-bearer of the Haradrim, "Out swept his sword, and he spurred to the standard, hewed staff and bearer, and the black serpent foundered." It's fun to watch! I imagine Tolkien with a faint smile on his face, working those into the text. That part about the black serpent really confused me when I was a kid, especially since Theoden says it again as he died - I felled the black serpent. I always thought he was referring to the Witch King’s steed, which Eowyn has just killed and I’m like, dude no you didn’t. Only when I was older did I realise he meant the black serpent banner!!
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Jul 22, 2021 00:27
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Pham Nuwen posted:Check out how he reads Theoden's call to ride here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6jhKEqtLxM&t=419s gently caress this is really good. e: listening to him reading Riddles in the Dark and he reads Gollum with what sounds like a faint Welsh accent HopperUK fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Jul 22, 2021 |
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Jul 22, 2021 01:03
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Once you listen to Tolkien you can't not hear how Ian McKellen adopted his mode when acting out Gandalf. I wouldn't call Tolkien a great vocal narrator, necessarily. He's a writer first and he speaks like a professor; great for presenting before a class. His cadence and the way he switches how he speaks to differentiate Elvish, Hobbitish, Mannish and Dwarvish speech is really cool, though.
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Jul 22, 2021 01:48
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Can someone please poo poo talk this book? https://www.eastonpress.com/all-categories/sci-fi-and-fantasy/the-illustrated-world-of-tolkien-3643.html Tell me it's strongly inspired by the movies or something, or that the paper quality leaves a lot to be desired. The other books also look so good.
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Jul 22, 2021 04:09
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You don't even need to be extensive, just say "Lol, David Day"
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Jul 22, 2021 04:31
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Mr. Nemo posted:Can someone please poo poo talk this book? https://www.eastonpress.com/all-categories/sci-fi-and-fantasy/the-illustrated-world-of-tolkien-3643.html Yeah dude just google David Day Tolkien. He and his works are not well-regarded.
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Jul 24, 2021 04:33
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The artwork is nice but you might as well look up the artists themselves.
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Jul 24, 2021 05:04
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One thing I noted on my recent reread is Tolkien's habit of using a device I think of 'as if thing actually thing'. That is to say, he likes to describe something starting with "as if..." and then describing exactly what it is, or was, no 'as if' about it. For example, imagine I put a dollar in a vending machine, got a Pepsi, and put it on a table and left the room. In comes Tolkien, and he describes the scene: "a Pepsi sat on the table, as if someone had just placed it there after getting it out of the nearby vending machine." A good example is when Frodo puts on the ring 'accidentally' in the Prancing Pony. Tolkien says, "It seemed to him, somehow, as if the suggestion came to him... from someone or something in the room." 'As if'? That's exactly what happened. Anyway, once you notice this habit you find Tolkien using it constantly.
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Jul 30, 2021 01:48
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Eru did it.
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Jul 30, 2021 01:55
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Imagined posted:One thing I noted on my recent reread is Tolkien's habit of using a device I think of 'as if thing actually thing'. That is to say, he likes to describe something starting with "as if..." and then describing exactly what it is, or was, no 'as if' about it. Yes, JRRT loves this device, particularly when something shady or supernatural is happening.
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Jul 30, 2021 01:58
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Imagined posted:One thing I noted on my recent reread is Tolkien's habit of using a device I think of 'as if thing actually thing'. That is to say, he likes to describe something starting with "as if..." and then describing exactly what it is, or was, no 'as if' about it. he sprang, as though he had sprung
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Jul 30, 2021 09:12
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It was as though the Balrog had wings...
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Jul 30, 2021 09:19
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Speaking of balrogs: can we talk about how loving awesome Boromir is? Dude gets a bad rap by comparison with Faramir, and for trying to take the ring. BUT. Dude was just a regular rear end human, and he was willing to stand and throw down with a mothafuckin balrog next to a demigod/wizard and an heir of one of the heroes of the age against the kind of thing that the likes of Feanor, Ecthelion, and Durin died trying to fight. An angel, a guy with a thousand year old sword. Boromir's sword doesn't have a name. It wasn't forged by elves. There's no poetry about Boromir. And yet he was willing to fight a thing that even Gandalf couldn't defeat without sacrificing himself. Another detail I love regarding Boromir is that, defending Merry and Pippin, he kills so many orcs that later some of them try to establish their bona fides by bragging about taking him down. "We slew the great warrior." Boromir owns. Not his fault the ring corrupts everyone. Imagined fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 05:02
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Boromir also did twice as much traveling as nearly everyone else just to get to Rivendell. While everybody at the council is talking up current events in Middle Earth, Boromir just says "yeah, my horse got killed and I spent the last four months hiking all the way north on foot fighting everything between Cair Andros and the Brandywine" And then he immediately was ready to turn right back around and do another extreme camping trip.
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Aug 1, 2021 05:06
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Imagined posted:
When Aragorn finds him it specifically mentions the amount of dead orcs lying around him as "20 at least" which is crazy  E) Not to mention he's all hosed up and filled with arrows but still alive and just chilling propped up against a tree. Radical 90s Wizard fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 11:01
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Imagined posted:There's no poetry about Boromir. Oh yes there is.  And the name of that smiley is appropriate, as he's a big fan.
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Aug 1, 2021 11:08
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yeah, boromir was one of the characters that got character assassinated in the movies
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Aug 1, 2021 13:10
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And also sort of actually assassinated e: who else would you add to that list?
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Aug 1, 2021 14:12
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Tree Bucket posted:And also sort of actually assassinated Gandalf: just points Frodo and Sam in the direction of Rivendell and ditches them on their own in the middle of the woods to go see Saruman about the ring completely out of nowhere, what was he thinking lol. Also gets his rear end kicked by the witch king Elrond: just kind of a jerk Gimli: everyone’s drunk uncle Faramir: beats prisoners for information Denethor: incompetent twat, won’t even defend his own city Frodo: tells Sam to walk home from Minas Morgul lmao Aragorn: kills the messenger
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Aug 1, 2021 15:05
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all of the characters in the movies are made dumber by different degrees. i also didnt like how elrond basically just turns into a jealous father when in the book he essentially just wants aragorn to save the world before he thinks it'll be safe enough for his daughter to marry him and stay there, not because he's jealous but because he thinks it isn't safe
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Aug 1, 2021 15:13
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Tree Bucket posted:And also sort of actually assassinated gimli and steward would be the biggest
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Aug 1, 2021 15:49
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I dont think boromir was done dirty in the films. If anything I felt they played up his more noble qualities. Boromir faltering or showing desperation in the films is used instead as a way for Aragorn to go through the character arc he'd already resolved before setting out on the quest in the book.
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Aug 1, 2021 15:56
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ChubbyChecker posted:yeah, boromir was one of the characters that got character assassinated in the movies Counterpoint: He's probably the most nuanced character in the movies. He's never shown as a bad guy, but someone who struggles to do the good thing. Him trying to take the ring isn't portrayed as him becoming a villain but having a moment of weakness which he instantly regrets.
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Aug 1, 2021 16:09
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Alhazred posted:Counterpoint: He's probably the most nuanced character in the movies. He's never shown as a bad guy, but someone who struggles to do the good thing. Him trying to take the ring isn't portrayed as him becoming a villain but having a moment of weakness which he instantly regrets. Absolutely. Boromir in the movies was given a sympathetic portrayal as a noble, caring man who struggled with his flaws and died a hero's death. As a longtime fan of the book the movies gave me a more positive view of him than all of my many rereads of how much he liked camping.
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Aug 1, 2021 16:35
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He arguably gets a better death in the movie too. In the book he just dies, but in the movie he gets a badass final fight and reconcile with Aragorn.
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Aug 1, 2021 16:59
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Alhazred posted:He arguably gets a better death in the movie too. In the book he just dies, but in the movie he gets a badass final fight and reconcile with Aragorn. Indeed
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Aug 1, 2021 17:00
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In the book he also lies to Aragorn about looking for frodo before they find him dying later.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:04
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'My brother, my captain, my king' just starts the tears for me every time. Boromir is my favourite.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:09
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Sean Bean is pretty much the perfect casting for a noble but flawed hero who redeems himself by dying a tragic death.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:11
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Tree Bucket posted:And also sort of actually assassinated Gimli and Denethor are no doubt the worst off, but I'd include Theoden too.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:17
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aragorn shouldve been ciaran hinds with long hair so hed look like the ralph bakshi version
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Aug 1, 2021 17:40
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Ravenfood posted:Gimli and Denethor are no doubt the worst off, but I'd include Theoden too. Two Towers Theoden. Return of the King Theoden is perfect.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:41
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