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wdarkk posted:Well, you can read the Rome Statute and determine if it qualifies or not. I would argue it does. It's not being done in the context of international armed conflict, though. It's more a general purpose crime against humanity than a war crime.
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Aug 1, 2021 02:58
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Ethiser posted:Most characters ended up in a better place and the solar system was happier overall at the end. It’s a way more positive and uplifting show than most UC ones. True, and honestly it's for the best that McGillis' gambit fell apart as soon as he played his one and only card, the reforms that happened after everything was said and done were net positives. If Tekkadan (Orga) hadn't been suckered in with his empty promises, all that bloodshed could have been avoided. The whole time I was watching season 2, it felt like the downfall in a greek tragedy where the protagonist has everything stripped away till there's nothing left. It's just sad that Mikazuki (and Shino, Akihiro, and all the others that died) never got to live a life of peace. I don't know if that's what he really wanted, or frankly what he really deserved, but still. But hey, that's Gundam. Where the main characters are child soldiers and no one wins, just survives. As Nero Danced fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 03:05
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chiasaur11 posted:It's not being done in the context of international armed conflict, though. It's more a general purpose crime against humanity than a war crime. Yea, it seems to fall under the banner of "Crimes Against Humanity" rather than "War Crimes". Specifically 1 (d). Rome Statutes posted:1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack: Crimes against humanity and war crimes are basically the same thing, just in different contexts, and there's even a similar listing in the war crimes section. Rome Statutes posted:2. For the purpose of this Statute, "war crimes" means:
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Aug 1, 2021 03:25
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As Nero Danced posted:True, and honestly it's for the best that McGillis' gambit fell apart as soon as he played his one and only card, the reforms that happened after everything was said and done were net positives. If Tekkadan (Orga) hadn't been suckered in with his empty promises, all that bloodshed could have been avoided. The whole time I was watching season 2, it felt like the downfall in a greek tragedy where the protagonist has everything stripped away till there's nothing left. An interesting thing about IBO's ending for me was how it reversed a lot of the standards. The obvious one is that the main characters tend to win the war and lose the peace, while Tekkadan was wiped out, but their enemies left them the better future the protagonists dreamed of, but two others drew my eye even more. First, on a meta level, usually the people on the merch live, while the supporting characters die. People like Chad and Derma tend to die in the last act to make viewers feel like victory came at a cost while the marketable leads live on in case of a sequel. Meanwhile, Tekkadan's leads died, (except Eugene) but most of the supporting characters like Dante and Zack survived, as did the tragic cybernewtype (who was also a Garma!) and the hero's love interests. Second, the generational conflict works really differently in Iron Blooded Orphans. In most Gundam, it's the cynical adults who cause most of the problems, with the young being the ones with the vision and drive to make positive changes. In Iron Blooded Orphans, meanwhile, the cynical and morally compromised adults are the ones most capable of making positive changes that stick, while the youthful idealists often make horrible decisions that ruin everything.
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Aug 1, 2021 03:45
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As Nero Danced posted:True, and honestly it's for the best that McGillis' gambit fell apart as soon as he played his one and only card, the reforms that happened after everything was said and done were net positives. If Tekkadan (Orga) hadn't been suckered in with his empty promises, all that bloodshed could have been avoided. The whole time I was watching season 2, it felt like the downfall in a greek tragedy where the protagonist has everything stripped away till there's nothing left. There's a strong argument to be made that those positive changes would not have been made if Tekkadan hadn't been suicidal risk taking gamblers in the first place. Tekkadan's good PR from the Kudelia mission is what led to the increase in mobile suit production and child soldier usage mentioned in season 2, and their decision to align with McGillis provided a very visible and famous non-Gjallarhorn entity to pin the blame for McGillis's rebellion on and "bring to justice" to restore public faith in Gjallarhorn after the coup and prevent a general collapse into anarchy. Rustal then reformed Gjallarhorn and made large concessions to interests like Kudelia because he was well aware that if systemic changes weren't made, this poo poo would keep happening.
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Aug 1, 2021 04:15
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Ehh most of your points come down. To Ibo having no sequels. Zetad ending without ZZ is more bloody by far. Bright and Fa are the only two Amin's making it out okay.
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Aug 1, 2021 04:17
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Gaius Marius posted:
Dainsleifs on unarmed transports, that crazy loving Cyclops array from SEED at the Alaska base, and the Memento Mori solar laser wiping out Sweal (sp?) in 00 S2.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:39
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I was trying to think up something from Wing and I'm reminded of how Wing's death toll is actually very minimal compared to pretty much every other Gundam series. Of course a war crime doesn't have to involve a ton of people. That's why I have concluded Heero killing the Federation's peaceful representatives.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:42
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Anderson sending mobile suits into booby traps in order to set off their reactors as makeshift nuclear bombs has to count since it violates the antarctic treaty.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:43
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Gaius Marius posted:
The Memento Mori, Operation British, and Mikazuki Augus.
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Aug 1, 2021 18:13
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Gaius Marius posted:
The Moonlight Butterfly, the Dainslef false flag operation, and the Angel Halo.
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Aug 1, 2021 18:21
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NikkolasKing posted:I was trying to think up something from Wing and I'm reminded of how Wing's death toll is actually very minimal compared to pretty much every other Gundam series. Didn't Quatre blow up a whole colony? Then again it's asking for your favorite, and I don't think Quatre was anybody's favorite anything.
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Aug 1, 2021 18:55
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I just watched the episode where the Angel Halo is activated for the first time and that thing is absolutely horrifying.
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Aug 1, 2021 18:57
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As Nero Danced posted:Didn't Quatre blow up a whole colony? It was an empty colony cylinder.
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Aug 1, 2021 19:16
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Kanos posted:It was an empty colony cylinder. Well, that confirms my second point, goddammit Quartre sucks.
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Aug 1, 2021 19:23
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ManSedan posted:I just watched the episode where the Angel Halo is activated for the first time and that thing is absolutely horrifying. It's just such an eerily gentle form of genocide. The elephants peacefully lying down and going to sleep was such a striking scene.
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Aug 1, 2021 19:24
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Darth Walrus posted:It's just such an eerily gentle form of genocide. The elephants peacefully lying down and going to sleep was such a striking scene. One thing I like about Tomino is that he can create some really oddball but cool technologies for his show, that are normally fairly under-explored beyond existing as plot devices for a short time. The Moonlight Butterfly is great in that regard, because even though it's shadow hangs over the entire show it's only really present for a few episodes as a possibility and is never actually explained in any real fashion but you can kind of work out what's going on to some degree. When Merrybell goes to use it the Moonlight Butterfly wings spreading behind the unit merge with the clouds and there are dark clouds spreading out over an entire mountain range. Which implies that the nanomachines merge with the local weather system and rain down on an area before spreading if the pilot desires to other weapon systems. As such, it could cover the whole planet in fairly short order without the pilot ever having to go anywhere using weather. Which is a really neat, if rather horrifying, way to orchestrate a global annihilation of technology.
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Aug 1, 2021 19:44
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OZ setting up bombs all over a town to try to get the gundams and using a federation retreat as a pretense to invade Relena's kingdom might count, but those are pretty low body count as well. I think Libra also only blew up an uninhabited island, though that would have some environmental effects and probably generate a tsunami at least.
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Aug 1, 2021 19:54
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What were the bug things in F91's intro called? Those were wickedly evil.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:55
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Azubah posted:What were the bug things in F91's intro called? Those were wickedly evil. Bugs. No, seriously, you got it right the first time.
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Aug 1, 2021 21:00
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NikkolasKing posted:I was trying to think up something from Wing and I'm reminded of how Wing's death toll is actually very minimal compared to pretty much every other Gundam series. I was running some numbers a bit back, and Iron Blooded Orphans might have an even lower bodycount than Wing. Wing has 100,000-ish dead (100,010 as of Trieze's death) in a bit under a year. Meanwhile, Iron Blooded Orphans has a lot of war crimes and crimes against humanity, but they tend to be more small scale. Tekkadan had only 300-ish members at the peak, the riots at Dort didn't lead to gassing the colonies, the War with No Name was intentionally kept low-fatality by Galan to keep it sustainable as bait, and only 25 full sized ships were destroyed in the series. (Brewers Ship, Hammerhead, one of Iok's Halfbreaks, Golden Jasley, 18 of McGillis's Halfbeaks, Hotarubi, 2 of Rustal's Halfbeaks.) Depending on the numbers for ship crews, how many people died at the agricultural plant, the details of the War with No Name (which had to be relatively low in fatalities given how easily it was brushed aside) and the deaths at Dort, it's possible that Iron Blooded Orphans had less than 100,000 people die during the events of the series. (At least, less than 100,000 people due to the actions of the cast). Arcsquad12 posted:Anderson sending mobile suits into booby traps in order to set off their reactors as makeshift nuclear bombs has to count since it violates the antarctic treaty. The whole trick to that one is that it's not quite a war crime. Ryer is just sending Mobile Suits in completely legitimately, and if it just happens that Zeon using beam weapons sets one of them off like a nuclear bomb, wiping out the entire complex in one move? Well, that's a "completely unexpected" tragedy, nothing he could do, so sad. It's the "I'm not touching you!" of not-quite war crimes.
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Aug 1, 2021 21:20
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NikkolasKing posted:I was trying to think up something from Wing and I'm reminded of how Wing's death toll is actually very minimal compared to pretty much every other Gundam series. I'm still in awe of Wufei rhetorically asking Treize 'How many have died for you' and getting the literal figure in reply, his 'gently caress you???' response is really the only appropriate one.
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Aug 1, 2021 21:27
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I wonder how many died in the initial conquering of the Sanc Kingdom.
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Aug 1, 2021 21:29
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i'm not convinced that anyone was living there outside of relena's academy and the various secret military forces.
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Aug 1, 2021 21:52
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i'm not convinced that anyone was living there outside of relena's academy and the various secret military forces. To be fair, everyone in Wing (down to random background farmers) is a member of at least two secret military forces.
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Aug 1, 2021 23:09
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chiasaur11 posted:I was running some numbers a bit back, and Iron Blooded Orphans might have an even lower bodycount than Wing. Turn A must have a lower body count than both, and I'm not honestly sure if there's any singular events that would have had bodycounts into the thousands. Vicinity and Nocis both get burned, but you also see plenty of people fleeing and Vicinity at least is only a fairly small city that probably has a population of maybe a few thousand total. It's briefly shown when Gym travels to Earth with Guin that his men are sacking cities too, but again, you see plenty of people fleeing and they seem to just be causing havoc rather than deliberately trying to kill the populations of those cities. I think those are probably the biggest events in terms of body count, and I'm not sure any battles kill more than a few hundred people even at the worst. There's not even really a full blown war at any point in the show. The last few episodes are as close as it comes, and even that seems more like one large battle rather than an actual war. A nuke is set off at one point, but Gavane seems like he is the only direct casualty of that explosion and if a nuke only kills one person in a show you know you're dealing with a show that's not dealing in high body counts. Loran only kills two people in the entire show, and one of those is by accident when a shot he intends to miss hit a suit instead (yeah, Tomino is fond of that and Bellri isn't the first it happened with). Speaking of, G-Reco probably has a fairly low total bodycount too from what I recall of it, though I'm not as familiar with that since I only watched it the once as it was airing. I'd imagine G does too, but then, G is kind of cheating, since G doesn't even technically have any war or battles. The Devil Gundam's attacks in the finale might have racked up a big bodycount, but I don't recall it doing so at least. I haven't seen it in ages though, so I could be wrong. Does 00 have a high body count either, for that matter? Celestial Being probably racked up a good bit of death while intervening at the start of the show, HAllelujah blew up a colony, but it was only a small research one for training super soldier kids so the total population probably wasn't too high and the orbital elevator break probably caused a good bit of death too. I don't remember anything on the scale of wiping out entire civilian colonies like in UC or anything though. tsob fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 23:19
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well, g does have battles but one side is always robots. robots that sometimes come with a juicy corpse center, but still robots.
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Aug 1, 2021 23:21
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tsob posted:Turn A must have a lower body count than both, and I'm not honestly sure if there's any singular events that would have had bodycounts into the thousands. Vicinity and Nocis both get burned, but you also see plenty of people fleeing and Vicinity at least is only a fairly small city that probably has a population of maybe a few thousand total. It's briefly shown when Gym travels to Earth with Guin that his men are sacking cities too, but again, you see plenty of people fleeing and they seem to just be causing havoc rather than deliberately trying to kill the populations of those cities. I think those are probably the biggest events in terms of body count, and I'm not sure any battles kill more than a few hundred people even at the worst. There's not even really a full blown war at any point in the show. The last few episodes are as close as it comes, and even that seems more like one large battle rather than an actual war. Memento Mori deletes the central capital of Not-Saudi Arabia and a military base with a neighbouring camp of 1 million refugees before it's destroyed, so definitely up there.
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Aug 1, 2021 23:35
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From my recollection doesn't the Devil Gundam eat most of Tokyo's population when it creates the original Death Army, since Death Army suits are all piloted by DG Cell Zombies
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Aug 1, 2021 23:41
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The biggest war crime was Seed not following up on the god drat space whale.
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Aug 2, 2021 01:15
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Spelling Mitsake posted:The biggest war crime was Seed not following up on the god drat space whale. They totally did, it was....why nobody was religious anymore. No, really, that's what they wrote it as. It was so dumb that even if I didn't think so at the time, I still remember reading it on GundamOfficial like a decade and a half later.
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Aug 2, 2021 01:36
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I've never understood why people are so obsessed with the space whale fossil. It's a bit of setting backstory fluff to help fluff out the big fancy career of the first coordinator. "Gundam, but with Aliens" is not something I'm terribly interested in, because the stuff that makes Gundam most interesting is inter-human conflict.
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Aug 2, 2021 01:38
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A space whale may be alien, but it is unlikely to be sapient even if it still survives as an extant species somewhere. As such, it's possibly the best of both worlds in that it introduces the idea that "hey, life can exist outside Earth; it's just not intelligent" so you still have nothing but humans in conflict. They're just in conflict in a setting that's a bit broader because some conservative ideas have been overthrown by a sci-fi concept (i.e. alien life). Although, sci-fi might be the wrong phrasing there, since it implies the very idea of alien life is fantastical and not probable but unproven and unprovable for the moment. Regardless, it introduces aliens and allows the setting to play with them and the effect their confirmed existence has on society without them defining the conflict.
tsob fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 01:53
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:They totally did, it was....why nobody was religious anymore. Eh, it made sense within the confines of the plot. It wasn't "space alien fossil = no religion" but part of an ongoing trend away from religious attitudes pushed by the advent of genetically engineered supermen, one of whom happened to head out to Jupiter and find proof of alien life which just further drove a wedge into people's belief in religion. It is worth noting though that it doesn't mean religion is totally dead. Orb has their worship of Haumea which is treated seriously enough that Cagalli's pendant is considered significantly important to her and the Blue Cosmos has errata establishing at least some of their backstory is "religious zealots who are super pissed." It just means that culture has changed enough that religion is not something taken as a given. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 02:05
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You can use the term Speculative Fiction in those cases. Even though it makes me grind my teeth Edit: the idea that a alien fossil destroys religion is so loving stupid
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Aug 2, 2021 02:06
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Gaius Marius posted:You can use the term Speculative Fiction in those cases. Even though it makes me grind my teeth "The discovery that alien life exists has a massive impact on existing religion" is one of the most common themes explored in science fiction.
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Aug 2, 2021 02:09
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Kanos posted:I've never understood why people are so obsessed with the space whale fossil. It's a bit of setting backstory fluff to help fluff out the big fancy career of the first coordinator. It's not that people want another Trailblazer. It's just that proof humanity is not alone in the universe is going to have a major impact on space exploration, but SEED just has it as a handwave to explain why people are less religious than in the UC.
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Aug 2, 2021 02:17
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chiasaur11 posted:It's not that people want another Trailblazer. It's just that proof humanity is not alone in the universe is going to have a major impact on space exploration, but SEED just has it as a handwave to explain why people are less religious than in the UC. This isn't really accurate. SEED's setting has multiple characters who are heavily invested in space travel because of Evidence 01 including a whole drat colony which decides to gently caress Earth and go off into space. The reason it doesn't have a bigger impact is because pretty much from the moment Evidence 01 is discovered people are trying to murder each other. George Glenn specifically intended Coordinators to help promote dialogues between humanity and space aliens but that never came to pass because of the aforementioned mass murder attempts. The main series doesn't focus on it but Astray brings it up pretty often. In addition they have been attempting improved space travel even between the murder. The Genesis was originally designed as a potential propulsion method for spaceships and the Stargazer is an evolution of that. Hell the DSSD was specifically established as a neutral party until Blue Cosmos was like "yeah but that Gundam is pretty cool...." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Aug 2, 2021 |
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Aug 2, 2021 02:20
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chiasaur11 posted:It's not that people want another Trailblazer. It's just that proof humanity is not alone in the universe is going to have a major impact on space exploration, but SEED just has it as a handwave to explain why people are less religious than in the UC. People aren't religious in UC though. The Muslims in the desert arc of ZZ is probably the first mention of religion in UC and there wasn't anything else solid till Unicorn. Maria evoked a cult like worship in Victory, I suppose. It's a very minor element all told though.
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Aug 2, 2021 02:24
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tsob posted:People aren't religious in UC though. The Muslims in the desert arc of ZZ is probably the first mention of religion in UC and there wasn't anything else solid till Unicorn. Maria evoked a cult like worship in Victory, I suppose. It's a very minor element all told though. Zeon Zum Deikun literally founded a religion that was a major driving force, either through genuine belief or by co-opting the imagery, for a tremendous part of Gundam UC. Like even back in the original Gundam novels it's really blunt that Zeon is a religious figure including him declaring that the stars were the divine right of spacenoids.
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Aug 2, 2021 02:25
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