|
Thanks for the feedback. I like my current job so I have a good BATNA. I can comfortably say no to the initial offer if they do not budge. I'll ask for 75k.
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2021 15:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 15:08 |
|
|
Javes posted:Feeling a little bait-and-switched right now. Got a verbal offer for a remote job for 63k with a 5k sign on bonus from the recruiter, however on the initial phone screen she had given me a range of 68-70k. When I asked her about that discrepancy, she said that range was for someone based in New Jersey (where their office is) and I am in Iowa. She knew I was in Iowa from the start so I don't know why I was given that higher range initially. I plan on asking for 70k when I receive the emailed offer. I make 57.5k now so I would be hesitant to make the jump for anything less than upper 60s. For what it’s worth, my company is allowing people to move wherever they want but have been working on a policy of paying people based on the market they work.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 02:06
|
|
|
Pillowpants posted:For what it’s worth, my company is allowing people to move wherever they want but have been working on a policy of paying people based on the market they work. So are they going to kick your salary up 50-100% if you move to SF? Somehow my guess is no.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 02:13
|
|
|
bamhand posted:So are they going to kick your salary up 50-100% if you move to SF? Somehow my guess is no. I work in the Boston market which isn’t SF or NY but it’s not that far removed - and since all the salary change tickets is through me I have seen some significant moves in both directions.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 02:23
|
|
|
For bay area startup, what does tech lead mean in terms of career progression, salary, options etc, especially at a pre IPO company We're looking at splitting the team under a director to have two teams, one tooling, the other SRE, each with a technical lead, and each team would get two direct reports, growing to 4-6 DR I can see a universe where tech lead is just a title bump with no meaningful compensation, but I don't think that's how this company rolls. Presumably there would be a... 10-15% salary bump, and 33-50% more options on top of the initial grant? How far off base am I here Presumably being a tech lead opens the door to a management position, or at least being in the top half of contestants, if/when that happens
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 02:29
|
|
|
That just sounds like they're making tech leads manage people on top of their other responsibilities which I've never seen work out well. If you want to get into management and don't have other options then it is at least giving you experience.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 03:26
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:For bay area startup, what does tech lead mean in terms of career progression, salary, options etc, especially at a pre IPO company How we do it is lead is a role, not a position, but it basically means you're a principal or if you're not you have a straight path there. So the bump sounds about right if your baselining off "experienced senior". We usually don't expect our leads to manage, it's usually decision making and the kind of prioritizing that happens a level below manager/pm. For sure teams it involves a lot of mentoring, depends on the team. It's also usually a path to management but also architect. So kinda a path to regardless I guess. I have in the past used leads as junior managers, but that has more to do with working at places without good pathways. If someone is ready to take on more leadership but need to start with a small team I've used lead to sneak in an in between promotion to lead (usually as principal). It's usually better doing that than waiting for a manager role to open up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 05:13
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:all consulting is bad Not strictly on topic but saw a few consultants in the thread and need some advice. I'm a second year manager at a T2 strat shop (LEK, OW, Kearney, etc.) and accepted a lateral move to MBB a few months ago, starting in the Fall. This was always going to be a pay cut for 2021 - they're leveling me as a new manager (fine) and only willing to cover a fraction of my 2021 bonus as signing. This is fairly typical I think, many laterals are down-leveled with the rationale that you can make it up quickly if you're good at your job. I accepted this (maybe wrongly!) and bet on myself. Current employer has since increased base pay >20% across the board and increased bonus targets, following peers who have done the same (notably BCG). Newco is 100% aware of this, and I reached out to clarify their plans and if my offer would be affected. They asked for proof on my side but aren't saying a word about their plans. I pressed and was offered a small increment to signing bonus, but no commitment on base salary. So, I'm now set to be out 2x what I thought in 2021 and $30k in 2022 base if they do nothing. I'd have to stay with current employer +6 months to get my bonus paid out, which doesn't seem like a realistic request. So, now I'm in a quandary. I signed the deal and am not trying to two-time, but I think maybe I'm an idiot to take this much of a pay cut? Here are some questions so the thread can make fun of me: * On a scale of 1-5, how out of line is it to even bring this up given I've already signed? I'd normally say 5/5 out of line but with so much of the industry making changes, I think it is a reasonable question * Is switching the no-brainer my colleagues are telling me it is, a.k.a. should I shut up and stop over-thinking it * Am I stupid for considering a pay cut for a lateral move in the first place
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
antiga posted:* Am I stupid for considering a pay cut for a lateral move in the first place I don't know that you're stupid, but you shouldn't take another job that requires a pay cut unless you desperately needed to get out of a terrible work environment that was taking a toll on your health. Places will string you along forever promising that "next year" or "in 6 months" you'll be getting a substantial raise.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 18:15
|
|
|
for what its worth our people (random tiny boutique strat shop with a niche focus) are getting insane unsolicited offers from various other firms so the fact that your future MBB employer isn't desperately trying to pitch you more money is not a great sign for how they view you. i got an unsolicited call for like 1.5x current base the other day, and one of our associates got a zero-interview offer for a 20% base bump above current adjusted salaries. i think it's totally fair to bring up - it's a mercenary market and you should get what you're worth. i doubt it will backfire because the market is insanely hot for consulting labor right now. i'd argue that you are stupid for accepting a lateral to another consulting firm unless you are a career consultant - which if you are, maybe it's worth it. but usually 2nd year managers are planning exits, not laterals. jordan7hm or whomever is a consultant who has moved for advantage, versus me, who is a dumb ladder climber, so they might have better input there. m0therfux0r posted:I don't know that you're stupid, but you shouldn't take another job that requires a pay cut unless you desperately needed to get out of a terrible work environment that was taking a toll on your health. Places will string you along forever promising that "next year" or "in 6 months" you'll be getting a substantial raise. for what its worth, that's not how it works at consulting firms. you either perform or you don't, the place wants to promote you provided you perform because there's essentially infinite capacity for people who are capable of leading project execution and then selling work. I wouldn't take a pay cut to go MBB myself but if the OP performs they will absolutely get more money and that performance review will be a lot more objective than most corp performance reviews.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 18:58
|
|
|
Is there much to lose giving them their requested proof? I mean general rule is never ever do that but in this case feels like it only helps? Maybe there is a way to prove it without showing your current comp? Black it out or use something generic if you have it? Fwiw I think the "come in under level and rise fast" line is more or less true. The few times I've heard of people making this move, it usually included something sort of probationary like that.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:19
|
|
|
Xguard86 posted:Is there much to lose giving them their requested proof? I mean general rule is never ever do that but in this case feels like it only helps? i promise promise promise that the OP's new firm knows what the OP is making and the OP's new firm also knows exactly what the pay increases are edit: not disagreeing with your broad point that OP should share, i just think that OP has very little risk in sharing precise comp KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Aug 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:30
|
|
|
Hadlock posted:For bay area startup, what does tech lead mean in terms of career progression, salary, options etc, especially at a pre IPO company Tech leads at my org, are a grade level above Sr, and at the same level of Principal. They make more money, and get an extra 5% on the bonus. Principals are not common at my org, but they do exist, they're the most senior "doers" who really don't want to go any farther in the company. Tech leads are for us are sort of a quasi management position. They mentor the team under them, act as a point of contact for the team, and do a lot of internal consulting with other teams, etc. They still do some actual work, but it's not the primary focus. They work very closely with the team manager/director, but they are not managers. It is the jumping off point for the next step though. We have IC career tracks and people manager tracks. IC moves you into architecture, tech fellows, etc, people managing moves you into that side of things. I don't work for a startup, but that's how it works where I'm at.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:44
|
|
|
I'm telling you, it sucks having to wait 3 more months until the winter slow time when I find out about this year's promotion decisions. The market is hot and I would love to be out interviewing, but I like my current place so I'm not willing to jump ship (barring a hilarious unrealistic number) until I learn I've been passed over for management. My fear is by December and early '22 demand will start slowing as a larger number of positions in my sort-of-popular area with a lot of jobseekers will start to get filled. But we'll see. I'm still taking some weekend time and brushing up the resume and LinkedIn though, for sure. And my situation / BATNA could be 100000% worse, need to keep reminding myself of that and stop getting distracted from doing as well as I can in the moment. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Aug 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 19:53
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i'd argue that you are stupid for accepting a lateral to another consulting firm unless you are a career consultant - which if you are, maybe it's worth it. but usually 2nd year managers are planning exits, not laterals. jordan7hm or whomever is a consultant who has moved for advantage, versus me, who is a dumb ladder climber, so they might have better input there. For what it’s worth, I can’t imagine leaving for a lateral let alone a pay cut in this market, MBB or not. I’m not in that pure strat space though so maybe the additional cachet of MBB is going to make it up for you and I don’t see it. I have my doubts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 20:22
|
|
|
Inner Light posted:I'm telling you, it sucks having to wait 3 more months until the winter slow time when I find out about this year's promotion decisions. The market is hot and I would love to be out interviewing, but I like my current place so I'm not willing to jump ship (barring a hilarious unrealistic number) until I learn I've been passed over for management. You can do both. Tell recruiters you are happy and will only consider a move for $insane_offer. If something pops up you can always interview and see what kind of offer you get. You can still decline at any point. Who knows what companies want to pay you. Only one way to find out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 20:25
|
|
|
KYOON and Jordan, I think the OP is aware he made a bad move, the big question is that now that he realizes he's made a huge mistake, having already signed, would it be a career ender to renege. I'm interested in the answer to that question too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 21:26
|
|
|
Nothing he does here is going to end his career. Seems like he’d blow up his spot at Newco for the near future, but … so what? People will turn over, a few years from now when he’s looking for the next thing and the right fit happens to be there, it’s unlikely this gets held against him. At the end of the day a signed offer isn’t a firm commitment from you to them any more than it is from them to you. Assuming he hasnt already given notice where he is, of course.
|
|
#
?
Aug 6, 2021 21:35
|
|
|
LochNessMonster posted:You can do both. Tell recruiters you are happy and will only consider a move for $insane_offer. If something pops up you can always interview and see what kind of offer you get. You can still decline at any point. I keep getting offers from recruiter spam on LinkedIn for "contracting position $100/hr" (~$200k) and I've idly (I just moved to another job, not looking) started responding "I can't even pay my mortgage with that rate, this is junior level pay" and several of them have responded "ok what rate are you expecting?" I responded with $155 and two of them still want to schedule calls with me, so A+ can recommend this strategy; there's a lot of money sloshing around looking for adequate ROI so take the biggest piece of the pie that you can get Also with inflation, a 10% raise is only going to net you 3-5% increased buying power, so factor that into salary considerations. If you want a 20% raise at your next job and 2021 inflation is 5%, you should be swinging for 25% this year Edit: got a response back from a recruiter when I said $150 for a senior position was second year junior money and his response was something like, "yeah, that's why this job has been so hard to fill" Hadlock fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Aug 7, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2021 00:30
|
|
|
External recruiters also try to place people for the lowest rate possible. This is probably to ensure their candidate is selected. Point in case: the recruiter who mailed me friday for my previous position that hasn’t been backfilled yet. He offered me a junior rate for a senior position. I called him out on it and never heard anything back.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2021 13:20
|
|
|
I think my job is trying to slide me into full-time hourly work without actually sitting me down to formally establish it. I'd been working part-time since March and got a pay bump about a month ago, with the explicit mention that, "we'll talk about full-time once we get closer to fall." This was cool and totally expected, no problems there. Earlier this week I suddenly got an e-mail from the accountant with health insurance information and a decision deadline of Sept 1st. As far as I'm aware, insurance is only available to full-time employees, but admittedly, with the exception of my immediate supervisor, communication in this place is notoriously horrible. I'm no stranger to negotiating thanks largely in part to following this thread and following the general advice thrown about, but this one's a new one and threw me for a loop. What's a tactful way of saying, "hold the loving phone, we need to discuss full-time employment here"?
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2021 18:17
|
|
|
Just lose the F-bomb and that would be plenty tactful enough for me as written.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2021 18:21
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:KYOON and Jordan, I think the OP is aware he made a bad move, the big question is that now that he realizes he's made a huge mistake, having already signed, would it be a career ender to renege. I'm interested in the answer to that question too. it's basically impossible to end your career in consulting by doing anything other than either literal crimes or poor performance and in today's market even if you perform poorly at another firm you can definitely get a lateral at another shop without issue. you're not going to get blacklisted for a business decision that the money no longer works for you, firms are too mercenary to hold grudges like that. and even if you somehow were blacklisted, there are plenty of other outfits that will hire you. I have an ex-employee who we canned for performance who has proceeded to lateral through two other firms in the last several years. This person is not good at the job (and I'm sure has been encouraged to seek other opportunities at each place) but they are able to keep getting hired because hey, they have a decent resume, we need live preferably experienced consultants to throw at projects and how bad can it be? bad
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 16:04
|
|
|
Is it ever worth it to take an offer from an outside company to try to get a raise in your current role? Or does that just always mark you for replacement down the line? For context my company has ~60,000 employees so I'm not sure I need to be worried about HR being mad at me or even remembering who I am, but my manager might be a different story. Does this just depend on my relationship with my manager?
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 16:10
|
|
|
It's 90%+ that they will either refuse to match and then fire you as soon as they've sorted out your replacement, or agree to match and then fire you as soon as they've sorted out your replacement. Do you feel lucky?
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 16:24
|
|
|
Yeah that aligns with my feelings on it. I was wondering if anyone in the thread has successfully done it or knows of coworkers who have
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 16:29
|
|
|
Deadite posted:Is it ever worth it to take an offer from an outside company to try to get a raise in your current role? Or does that just always mark you for replacement down the line? If you have to ask the answer is 'bad idea' Deadite posted:For context my company has ~60,000 employees so I'm not sure I need to be worried about HR being mad at me or even remembering who I am, but my manager might be a different story. Does this just depend on my relationship with my manager? Ok it's definitely a bad idea. There are very few and niche circumstances where this can work and at a large corporation is definitely NOT it. Ask for your raise. If/when they don't give it to you just say, 'alright I understand' and then hand in your two weeks notice whenever you have your offer lined up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 16:41
|
|
|
I shouldn't have said use an offer to get a raise because this situation is more that I expect to get a counteroffer/match when I have the conversation with my boss about leaving. But it's essentially the same and I just shouldn't even consider a counteroffer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 16:58
|
|
|
If they wanted to keep you tied to the company they’d have goven you raises/promotions before you started looking around. They didn’t so that means they’re either happy underpaying you or don’t care about you leaving.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 17:06
|
|
|
Deadite posted:Yeah that aligns with my feelings on it. I was wondering if anyone in the thread has successfully done it or knows of coworkers who have From what I have heard - other people may want to confirm - you want to boomerang back to a place you like working long term, but after hopping around a bit to build your worth up. Like, take another job, take the pay raise, come back in a few years if the culture is still good sort of deal TheParadigm fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Aug 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 17:17
|
|
|
TheParadigm posted:From what I have heard - other people may want to confirm - you want to boomerang back to a place you like working long term, but after hopping around a bit to build your worth up. Yeah this is my plan. My company is notorious about not promoting from within. It seems most of our senior leaders spent a few years working elsewhere before coming back with a better title.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 17:29
|
|
|
TheParadigm posted:From what I have heard - other people may want to confirm - you want to boomerang back to a place you like working long term, but after hopping around a bit to build your worth up. This is what I did after about 10 years. Allowed me to get the base way up, see different parts of the industry, but eventually go back to working for a management team I like.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 18:02
|
|
|
Deadite posted:For context my company has ~60,000 employees so I'm not sure I need to be worried about HR being mad at me or even remembering who I am, but my manager might be a different story. Does this just depend on my relationship with my manager? Yeah, HR isn't going to remember you, especially since they probably have a crazy turnover. This is why they keep a file on every employee where they note down stuff like this, and also any complaints you make, alleged bad behaviours, and so on. And whenever there's a firing round, they'll look through those files.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 20:15
|
|
|
I think the advice of not accepting a counter offer is overstated in some aspects. You do need to be willing to leave though. Go into the conversation with that mindset and evaluate if your management chain, particularly your direct manager, is unhappy about the situation because that's who matters for your work environment and future reviews. HR isn't going to fire or lay you off because you got a counter offer if your performance reviews are good. Also if you're going to accept a counter offer, make sure you have other options and didn't just get yourself blacklisted from the only other option. The biggest issue with accepting a counter offer is that people tend to not start job searching over money alone and none of the other issues are going to get fixed. There's also a secondary aspect that companies that underpay will continue to do so and your compensation is going to fall behind again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 21:38
|
|
|
asur posted:I think the advice of not accepting a counter offer is overstated in some aspects. Can't say I agree with you. Losing a job without another one lined up is one of the most stressful and morale crushing experiences one can experience in life, in my opinion, barring like health issues or deaths of relatives. It seems like accepting a counter offer lets your employer know you're 'not there for the long haul' or 'not a team player', and makes getting fired in an at-will state hugely more likely moving forward. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Aug 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 22:19
|
|
|
asur, sorry if I come across to you as a dick here, but what you wrote is really naive, and I feel I have to call it out because I've seen too many people over the years get burned, badly, by believing it. In point of fact, it is the extremely common experience of people who get an offer from another company and then ask their current employer to match it to suddenly find themselves unemployed 6 months or so later. It is not just the most common end result of doing that, it is by far the most common result. Your direct manager, and probably their direct manager, have little to nothing to do with this (dependent on level of course). What normally happens is HR takes note that you informed the company on $DATE that you have received a competing offer and requested it be matched, and alerts go out up the chain about it. Your boss soon gets an email or call from their boss, saying "I understand Joe Goon asked for an increase and said he had another offer, what are you doing to mitigate this risk?" If your boss would be hosed if you left in two weeks, he'll say so, and probably HR will soon contact you agreeing to match the offer. But then your boss will be required to lay out a formal plan to replace you, because you are now a Flight Risk. A couple months later you'll be told "hey, we're going to get you some help so you're not overworked so much, please teach this new person to do your job so they can help with your workload". Once your cheaper, more complacent replacement is trained, you'll be told "Sorry but (excuse here), we need to let you go." Deadite posted:Yeah that aligns with my feelings on it. I was wondering if anyone in the thread has successfully done it or knows of coworkers who have Personally I know one person whose company (of about 300 employees) matched another company's offer and it worked out great and she stayed there for 5 more years. I know at least a dozen (besides myself) who went through pretty much the exact scenario I detailed above and were shocked and devastated when they were abruptly fired. You can bet the farm on you being the exception if you want. But the rule is that The Company only cares about staffing your position as inexpensively and stably as possible, they have systems in place to ensure that happens, and as soon as they become aware you're unhappy with your compensation they will get to work on replacing you with someone cheaper and more complacent than you. If they feel they need to buy time by temporarily agreeing to your ask, they will--but only until they're suitably prepared to replace you. I personally know several people who blithely went to their current employers with a competing offer for the exact reasons you and others have stated--they had a great relationship with their boss and coworkers, etc.--only to be shocked by their termination a few months later. Executive management, by way of their squires the HR staff, see to it that this happens, and the boss you have a great relationship with isn't given a choice in the matter. The larger the company, the more true this is, in my experience. Asking for a raise without saying anything about a competing offer is less hazardous to your future at that company, but not by very much. Simply making them aware you're not satisfied with your current compensation is often enough to make you a Flight Risk and trigger the preparations to replace you. If the company actually DOES regard you as crucial, they will usually make sure your compensation is above-market without your having to ask. But this is rare. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Aug 8, 2021 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2021 22:40
|
|
|
To preface this post, let me say I'm not considering taking a counteroffer anymore. One of the reasons I was considering it before though is that in my 10 years of working different jobs in this company I've only ever seen one person let go. It was part of company-wide layoffs and I know they tried really hard to find him a new job within the company before he found something else. So this is where my curiosity over the counteroffer comes from, because I would be surprised if this situation never came up with my coworkers and I just never found out about it. So while I know all the reasons why I shouldn't tell my boss about another offer unless I'm accepting that offer, working for a decade at a company and never seeing anyone outright fired has given me a false sense of security. I also have many coworkers who left for a year or two and came back, so I know that is a good option.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2021 00:11
|
|
|
Did a long effort post in the Resume/Interview thread, but also wanted to get some feedback here. TL;DR Third and final interview with company A is the day before the second interview with regional manager for the second time of company B. I have no BATNA, essentially I stopped political consulting at the end of 2020 because I got diagnosed with cancer at the end of 2019 so chemo, surgeries, an ostomy, plus covid lockdown and people becoming more insane than usual during election season made me say gently caress the political world I need to get my mind right for a few months and just chill. Company A pays hourly for 3 months then base plus commission. Its a medical recruiter position, which I know a lot of people hate, but I am seriously running low on money and need something to happen on that front. It was intimated to me during the second round that I might hear good news at the end of the third interview. Of course, I want everything in writing, but can I/should I say, this whole hourly thing is bullshit, pay me salary to start if its offered right there or wait for the formal offer to come through before I start making demands? I would rather go with Company B, but there is at least a third interview there, and may not start until Sept 1, at which point it would be another whole month before I got paid. Also, I may not even get an offer there, so I don't gently caress myself with company A if that turns out to be my only option.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2021 05:59
|
|
|
You should tell Company B that you are in the process with other firms of course and you are expecting an offer with a relatively quick deadline. I think it's reasonable to tell the that you are very interested in the role and would prefer to work for Company B, but they will need to give you an offer in advance of Day X, and ask them if there's any way they can accelerate or expedite their process. If they tell you no, that tells you something, and then you can debate about how long you can put off A. Why are you upset about hourly for the first three months? is there something to that structure that I'm not understanding from your posts? I'd consider hourly to be preferable to salary in most cases. I'd be much more concerned about base plus commission than the three month period.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2021 14:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 15:08 |
|
|
Also, you could always accept an offer from A then leave a month later if B comes through. It's not that uncommon.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2021 16:26
|
|
