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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Oh good, we're back to 2010 era r/atheism posts. It's not like anything has changed in the last 11 years And this is the sort of "one-way respect" I was just talking about lol Trazz fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Aug 14, 2021 |
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Aug 14, 2021 19:23
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Official Nicene Christian doctrine doesn't many any loving sense but neither does QAnon, and I don't think the ""reasonable atheist"" QAnoner that just believes Trump is saving trafficked children from Hillary Clinton's tunnels really exists, it's all tied up in a kind of weirdo apocalyptic strain of Christianity that has been in America since the beginning of colonization. The book of revelation is really just the QAnon of antiquity, with paranoid prophetic themes and the author's political enemies portrayed as monsters and demons. Or maybe it'd be more accurate to say that QAnon is Book of Revelation Extended Universe. But your average Christian doesn't care about Trinitarian Nicene dogma if they even understand it or are even aware of it beyond repeating some esoteric phrases in church that were enforced to prevent congregations from falling into heresies that don't even exist anymore. Your average Christian who is a Christian because it's the cultural default and who doesn't really care about fighting off the Nestorian heresy or iconoclasm or even about all the weird dietary and sexual repression stuff in the bible is a hell of a lot more reasonable than your average QAnoner who intentionally joined up because they want to believe a bunch of crazy stupid bullshit.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:03
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Trazz posted:This Qanon poo poo is the result of every conspiracy nutcase having their brains broken all at once lol
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Aug 14, 2021 21:04
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Yes, dude, sorry, there was collusion and I'm not gonna pretend otherwise 
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Aug 14, 2021 21:12
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That narrative lost all credibility for me the day Democrats voted to expand Trump's domestic surveillance powers (and of course granted him every military spending increase he asked for). He's a Russian stooge installed by Putin to conquer America, and Nancy Pelosi wants to make him more powerful and give him more weapons? Yeah ok sure. That whole thing was just liberal QAnon. Confronted with a reality they could not accept (all their best and brightest got defeated and humiliated by a game show host pandering to the lowest common denominator), they made up an alternative reality to explain it: the Russian Deep State was pulling the strings. Same motivation as Q people trying to explain why their big strong daddy actually turned out to be an incompetent moron in office. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Aug 14, 2021 |
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Aug 14, 2021 21:15
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VitalSigns posted:That narrative lost all credibility for me the day Democrats voted to expand Trump's domestic surveillance powers (and of course granted him every military spending increase he asked for). He's a Russian stooge installed by Putin to conquer America, and Nancy Pelosi wants to make him more powerful and give him more weapons? Yeah ok sure. "Well there was no collusion because I have a weirdo grudge on the Democrats" is a conversation that you can only have with me online.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:17
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lmao asking why political figures actions don't match their words isn't a "grudge". If someone tells me their political enemy is a Russian spy and then they vote to give him unaccountable domestic surveillance authority, then they are obviously lying to me.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:19
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Trazz posted:"Well there was no collusion because I have a weirdo grudge on the Democrats" is a conversation that you can only have with me online. If democrats believed that he was an agent of the Russian Federation, they wouldn’t have expanded a domestic surveillance program he was in charge of—that sounds pretty straightforward to me. If anything was incontrovertible, it must not have been a big enough deal to democrats in the legislature to change the way they operate.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:20
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VitalSigns posted:lmao asking why political figures actions don't match their words isn't a "grudge". Yeah just like the time that George W. Bush stole the election and then the GOP covered it up and browbeat the Democrats into working with them anyways through implicit, if not explicit threats Wait a second, this is the same thing again! Heck, I'm old enough to remember when that happened! You're basically reskinning the same arguments from back then.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:22
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:If democrats believed that he was an agent of the Russian Federation, they wouldn’t have expanded a domestic surveillance program he was in charge of—that sounds pretty straightforward to me. If anything was incontrovertible, it must not have been a big enough deal to democrats in the legislature to change the way they operate. "If Democrats believed that George W. Bush stole the election in 2000 yadda yadda yadda"
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Aug 14, 2021 21:23
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Trazz posted:"If Democrats believed that George W. Bush stole the election in 2000 yadda yadda yadda" The democrats were happy to accept the results of the supreme court decision and accept bush as president. Process is very important to them.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:25
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:The democrats were happy to accept the results of the supreme court decision and accept bush as president. Process is very important to them. Okay but did it happen or not?
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Aug 14, 2021 21:29
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Trazz posted:Okay but did it happen or not? Did what happen? Did George Bush become the president despite getting fewer votes? Of course it happened.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:31
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Did what happen? Did George Bush become the president despite getting fewer votes? Of course it happened. And, y'know, the voter suppression, the Brooks Brothers Riot, and all that stuff. That all happened, right? Because if it's all factual then I don't see how saying "WELL THE DEMOCRATS" is going to change my mind, in fact, the insistence on immediately framing things as a "Democratic narrative" or whatever really reinforces my "weirdo grudge" thesis
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Aug 14, 2021 21:34
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Trazz posted:And, y'know, the voter suppression, the Brooks Brothers Riot, and all that stuff. If the democrats are unconcerned with something, it means that thing probably doesn’t make any practical difference to the status quo. Collusion couldn’t have mattered that much to them if they never did anything about it, much as they didn’t really care who the president was in 2000 so long as formal process was followed.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:39
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:If the democrats are unconcerned with something, it means that thing probably doesn’t make any practical difference to the status quo. Collusion couldn’t have mattered that much to them if they never did anything about it, much as they didn’t really care who the president was in 2000 so long as formal process was followed. That's nice but did it happen or not?
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Aug 14, 2021 21:40
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VitalSigns posted:Official Nicene Christian doctrine doesn't many any loving sense but neither does QAnon, and I don't think the ""reasonable atheist"" QAnoner that just believes Trump is saving trafficked children from Hillary Clinton's tunnels really exists, it's all tied up in a kind of weirdo apocalyptic strain of Christianity that has been in America since the beginning of colonization. The book of revelation is really just the QAnon of antiquity, with paranoid prophetic themes and the author's political enemies portrayed as monsters and demons. Or maybe it'd be more accurate to say that QAnon is Book of Revelation Extended Universe. The reason Q works so well is that it's nebulous and formless. All my friends that were Atheist, Libertarian, 9/11 truthers, are all Q believers now. It's easy for them rationalize away the supernatural aspects as part of a deep state false flag psy op to discredit the movement. But they all ascribe to the idea the election was stolen, the Dems are pedos, Trump is a hero, and Jan 6th was a display of true patriotism. Never put limits on brain rot. Some "Atheists" still need something to believe in.
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Aug 14, 2021 21:42
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Libertarians are into a child sex trafficking conspiracy? Well I never
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Aug 14, 2021 22:09
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eSporks posted:
Is this 'or' or 'and'?
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Aug 14, 2021 22:41
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eSporks posted:Posts like this are nonsense. The reason for Q's wide ranging appeal is it's syncretism, which is only increasing as the primary text is not being added to. I have seen literal fantasy tropes being seriously discussed in th community, and referenced by others
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Aug 14, 2021 22:52
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Trazz posted:Yeah just like the time that George W. Bush stole the election and then the GOP covered it up and browbeat the Democrats into working with them anyways through implicit, if not explicit threats Bush just cheated which they didn't really care about, they didn't accuse him of being an Iranian asset because then it wouldn't have made sense to vote for his entire foreign policy. Although with the results of his foreign policy what they were, Bush probably should have asked Iran for a paycheck.
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Aug 14, 2021 23:01
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VitalSigns posted:Bush just cheated which they didn't really care about, they didn't accuse him of being an Iranian asset It's probably because Dubya's cheating was entirely domestic and didn't involve a foreign power like Trump's did! Do you typically get your cause and your effect messed up, or...
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Aug 14, 2021 23:04
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Trazz posted:It's probably because Dubya's cheating was entirely domestic and didn't involve a foreign power like Trump's did! Right that's what I'm saying, it made sense for them to ignore Bush's cheating and vote for what he wanted anyway because he was a puppet of good old American oligarchs. They wouldn't have done that if they believed Iran was behind it all (hopefully!) It makes no sense that they voted to expand Trump's surveillance powers and military budget if they actually thought he was a Manchurian candidate installed to conquer America for the glory of Russia. Also ya know they never found any evidence, didn't bother to impeach over it, etc. Much like Trump never Locking Her Up, the believers have to invent an increasingly complex alternate reality to explain away the really really obvious evidence that they were just lied to and manipulated.
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Aug 14, 2021 23:09
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VitalSigns posted:Right that's what I'm saying, it made sense for them to ignore Bush's cheating and vote for what he wanted anyway because he was a puppet of good old American oligarchs. So we're going to ignore that Trump literally colluded in his loving TOWER and that the GOP knew about it and obstructed the investigation? Because you're still trying to scold me for this for some reason. I'll ask again: DID IT HAPPEN, OR DID IT NOT HAPPEN? Because I know the whole reason that you're here is to run interference for the GOP(by comparing people who acknowledge that Trump cheated to actually literal delusional people) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Trazz fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Aug 14, 2021 |
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Aug 14, 2021 23:12
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Also he didn’t conquer the US for Russia or serve Russian interests, at least not any more than he was subservient to Duterte, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Orban etc. Which is to say that he liked all of them and wanted to help them, probably.
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Aug 14, 2021 23:13
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eSporks posted:Posts like this are nonsense. The people I noticed falling down the Q hole were all far right, xenophobic, sexist, homophobic, pro-gun, deeply conservative, incel gamers (not friends of mine). They were the sort of people you constantly have to keep banning from gaming forums due to a complete lack of basic social skills. All gone a bit Q.
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Aug 14, 2021 23:13
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VitalSigns posted:Right that's what I'm saying, it made sense for them to ignore Bush's cheating and vote for what he wanted anyway because he was a puppet of good old American oligarchs. They wouldn't have done that if they believed Iran was behind it all (hopefully!) I think the issue was the amount of Russian propaganda being dumped into social media, which was framed as an unprecedented amount of foreign interference. I don't think the majority of Democrats ever thought Trump was literally a manchurian candidate.
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Aug 14, 2021 23:28
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PneumonicBook posted:I think the issue was the amount of Russian propaganda being dumped into social media, which was framed as an unprecedented amount of foreign interference. I don't think the majority of Democrats ever thought Trump was literally a manchurian candidate. I think the issue was that Trump was leveraged by Putin and that the entire GOP knew about it and helped cover it up but hey whatever
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Aug 14, 2021 23:31
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Trazz posted:I think the issue was that Trump was leveraged by Putin and that the entire GOP knew about it and helped cover it up but hey whatever I absolutely agree with that, I just meant in general what most Democrats were yelling about was the kind of interference I referenced. Calling anyone who believes either of those things the "Qanon of the left' seems incredibly reductive and disingenuous, imo.
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Aug 14, 2021 23:32
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PneumonicBook posted:I absolutely agree with that, I just meant in general what most Democrats were yelling about was the kind of interference I referenced. We still don't actually know the full scope of the interference though lol
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Aug 14, 2021 23:33
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Trazz posted:Because I know the whole reason that you're here is to run interference for the GOP(by comparing people who acknowledge that Trump cheated to actually literal delusional people) How did Trump cheat? Trazz posted:I think the issue was that Trump was leveraged by Putin and that the entire GOP knew about it and helped cover it up but hey whatever Sure is weird that the Democrats knew about it and did nothing about it whatsoever, I'm sure it just slipped their minds, that's definitely more plausible than them being full of poo poo.
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Aug 14, 2021 23:36
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If there's one thing that unites the atheist and christian dominionist factions of QAnon it's their hatred of the stultifying effects of modern corporatized US culture. Some of that culture can be good "no you can't act out against people you meet in public, say the N-word or sexually harass everyone you meet", most of it is awful (congratulations you are now the slave of the HR and the CEO (QAnon-sympathetic people would prefer to be the slavers)). Xand_Man posted:Washington has voted blue since 1988 and Trump pulled <40% here. They're delusional but they're not crazy lol maga people had convinced themselves that they were going to flip cali and ny red, even "reasonable" former-liberals like pool. this was significantly more delusional than democrats who thought they could flip florida blue
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Aug 14, 2021 23:38
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Twelve by Pies posted:Sure is weird that the Democrats knew about it and did nothing about it whatsoever, I'm sure it just slipped their minds, that's definitely more plausible than them being full of poo poo. Trazz posted:And, y'know, the voter suppression, the Brooks Brothers Riot, and all that stuff. Weird how you all keep lining up to make the exact same post Seriously, every time I come to D&D I just get dogpiled by a bunch of psuedointellectual schmucks making the same talking points as if it'll work THIS time Trazz fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Aug 14, 2021 |
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Aug 14, 2021 23:40
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I dunno man if someone tells me "This person is a threat to democracy" and then votes to give that person even more power I can't imagine how you can interpret that as anything other than "Oh they were lying to me."
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Aug 14, 2021 23:44
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Twelve by Pies posted:I dunno man if someone tells me "This person is a threat to democracy" and then votes to give that person even more power I can't imagine how you can interpret that as anything other than "Oh they were lying to me." I dunno man, if all the evidence suggests that it happened, corroborated by our own intelligence agencies as well as various other intelligence agencies of other countries, then I'm gonna go ahead and say that it happened and that your post is just an excuse You'd basically have to argue that Dubya and Reagan didn't cheat because the Democrats were still browbeaten into working with them as well
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Aug 14, 2021 23:47
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I'm tempted to ask for an explanation of the weird inconsistencies that "Trump is a Russian asset" would require, but I've already done enough to take this thread further off topic so I don't want to make it even worse. So I'll just limit my question to, how did Reagan cheat? I don't think Bush cheated (the election was absolutely, irrefutably stolen, but it was the courts doing it for him, I don't think there's enough proof that Bush actively forced the courts to rule that the recounts should stop) but this is a whole new weird area. If it's just "Lying to people to get elected is cheating" then like, every president and politician in the history of the country cheated. Which I'm not saying is impossible or anything, but it kind of makes "Trump cheated" a pointless statement.
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Aug 14, 2021 23:54
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Twelve by Pies posted:I'm tempted to ask for an explanation of the weird inconsistencies that "Trump is a Russian asset" would require Trump was literally leveraged by Putin, it's actually pretty straightforward to suggest that someone who is leveraged by Russia is a Russian asset
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Aug 14, 2021 23:55
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Since you didn't answer my question I'm just going to assume you're arguing in bad faith and don't actually want to explain your position, just dunk on anyone who disagrees with you, so have fun, I'm out.
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Aug 15, 2021 00:03
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I think the question is more like “if trump was doing the bidding of another country, why didn’t his political opposition care or treat him as dangerous in that way?” It may be trivially true that the trump campaign established communication with the Russian government or whatever else Mueller alleges, but it can’t equate to “trump was the agent of a foreign power” because nobody treated him like he was, including his supposed opposition. If we’re just discussing the text of the Mueller report, then no, I don’t deny that anything described there happened.
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Aug 15, 2021 00:10
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:I think the question is more like “if trump was doing the bidding of another country, why didn’t his political opposition care or treat him as dangerous in that way?” It may be trivially true that the trump campaign established communication with the Russian government or whatever else Mueller alleges, but it can’t equate to “trump was the agent of a foreign power” because nobody treated him like he was, including his supposed opposition. I honestly don't think that Trump was installed or controlled by Moscow. I think they were thrilled when he was elected, and it wouldn't surprise me to find out that they had financial dirt on him, but he wasn't some foreign agent in their pocket. As for why the Dems didn't treat him like the existential danger that he was, it's because they're a pack of cowardly olds who don't want the world to change very much. Confronting what Trump means and what the GOP has become requires courage and a willingness to change and adapt, and they're just sclerotic pols with slowly encroaching dementia. We really need a John Brown to show the way forward, but we'll probably die waiting for him.
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Aug 15, 2021 00:23
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