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fermun posted:Obviously I could never vote for you or any candidates of your "socialist" party because I'm pro-union. Hold on a sec, is this intended to imply you're "pro-unions" negotiating to prevent COVID vaccines from being mandated as a condition of employment as mentioned in the post that your quote is replying to? Because that's extremely loving stupid if so.
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Aug 15, 2021 09:06
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Hold on a sec, is this intended to imply you're "pro-unions" negotiating to prevent COVID vaccines from being mandated as a condition of employment as mentioned in the post that your quote is replying to? Because that's extremely loving stupid if so. No, I am saying that I think unions should exist, unlike the "socialist" goon. look up the party he's running on for gently caress's sake. Quite literally, if you believe in the idea that unions should be able to exist and negotiate contracts for their employees, you'd be better off voting for Larry Elder than the socialist goon grifter. fermun fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 09:24
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Zachack posted:All of the elements you describe with the exception of contact tracing (which CA is still doing, I believe) require some implied element of force, lockdowns and quarantines in particular. If the Fresno or Kern County Sheriff decides to not to enforce the mask mandate, let alone lockdowns and quarantines, what are you going to do? How do you plan to deal with ~30% of the population outright rejecting any further precautions? An election campaign fundamentally provides an orientation. What are the problems society confronts? What are the basic solutions to be fought for? The things you are looking for can't be decided by one candidate or one campaign team. What I'm fighting for and what distinguishes me from every other candidate is an orientation to the working class and the demand to eliminate COVID transmission. If you want to know the scientists I follow and would work with regarding the pandemic here's their web site: https://covidactiongroup.net/. The first step to diminishing that portion of the population that is hostile to public health measures is to stop lying to them and stop placing the burden of health measures on workers and small businesses. First and foremost, I'm appealing to workers to refuse working in unsafe conditions and promising them all my support in that. California's schools have been chronically underfunded. They've come into the pandemic without the resources to cope and that has continued. The matter won't be solved by me coming up with what percentage of funds is given to local counties and what percentage comes direct from the state. Neither will it be solved by me deciding whether remote internet access is best served by vouchers or direct state purchase of hardware. Those issues are secondary to the fundamental questions, are we going to contain the pandemic and who will pay for the expense? As for the SEIU, here's a good example of the kind of poo poo they pull. Workers voted down a contract twice, so the SEIU imposes it anyways: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2021/07/09/amco-j09.html. This is hardly an aberration, the Teamsters did the same thing to UPS workers
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Aug 15, 2021 10:03
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fermun posted:This is an excellent grift you've got. Bravo! fermun posted:No, I am saying that I think unions should exist, unlike the "socialist" goon. look up the party he's running on for gently caress's sake. Dude, take a deep breath. I get it, I disagree with the DSA and didn't take a moment of silence when Trumka died so you hate my guts. But, campaign finances are highly regulated and I've filed my forms. I am 100% for the working class, but the reality we face is that the well-paid trade union bureaucracies have been actively conspiring against workers. I cited the above example of the SEIU at Amcor but we've also been doing a lot autoworkers at Volvo where the UAW conspired with the company to force through a contract that workers had voted down 3 times. The statewide teacher strikes all erupted outside the unions and the unions did everything they could to shut them down before workers' demands were met. What particularly upsets the DSA is that the Socialist Equality Party has no moral objection to organizing independently of the bureaucrats like we did at Volvo. My own experience in the Oakland strike was that teachers were getting demoralized from the union's endorsement of budget cuts and outraged when the OEA leadership tried to call off the pickets so the school board could vote through layoffs to support staff. It was precisely because I opposed the Democrats and the union's efforts to keep our strike separate from Los Angeles and San Francisco teachers that my school elected me site rep. When Newsom told schools to open at the very end of the school year the union execs fought against the membership to push through a new tentative agreement. Their main argument was if we vote down this contract, the distract can impose it, so we have to vote in favor of the TA that removed any conditions for closing school sites if cases rise. They specifically said that if the contract was voted down they would not negotiate a better one and tried to claim that we were violating students' civil rights by not reopening in the pandemic. If anyone wants to dig into the history of unions and how they became what they are now, I'd recommend our retrospective Forty years since the PATCO strike edit: I should probably add given fermun's wild claims that the SEP has consistently opposed every Republican effort to implement right-to-work laws or otherwise impede workers' right to organize. Canasta_Nasty fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 10:38
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Canasta_Nasty posted:Dude, take a deep breath. I get it, I disagree with the DSA and didn't take a moment of silence when Trumka died so you hate my guts. But, campaign finances are highly regulated and I've filed my forms. Good luck on your run! I think at this point you probably have just about as much chance as anyone. The shear hubris of the Democratic Party on this recall has been truly amazing. It speaks to the calcification of the party in CA. If some crazy person ends up as governor, present company excepted, it's totally on them. Like, Gavin Newsom is the hill to die on? Even Gray Davis had enough braincells to rub together to think, "Gee, I might lose this. Letting my Lt. Governor be on the ticket seems like a good backup plan!" Now they have this insane strategy of telling people to leave the second question blank. What? WHAT? You guys know how elections work, right? So their plan is, "I've got an idea! We'll tell all of our voters not even to vote for a replacement! That will scare them enough to send in the ballot!" "But what if we lose? Doesn't that drastically increase the chances of some crazy person becoming governor?" "I don't understand the question."
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Aug 15, 2021 15:54
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To be fair, there is a strategic justification for not putting forward a backup candidate - in a hypothetical scenario where 40-45% of the electorate is lined up behind a single Republican candidate, putting forth a backup risks pushing the "Yes on Recall" vote over 50%, and then potentially having that backup candidate lose out to the Republican. The problem is, in the scenario we have now, where there is no strong Republican candidate, the "no backup" strategy becomes a lot riskier. The Dems bet poorly on that one.
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Aug 15, 2021 16:00
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DaveWoo posted:To be fair, there is a strategic justification for not putting forward a backup candidate - in a hypothetical scenario where 40-45% of the electorate is lined up behind a single Republican candidate, putting forth a backup risks pushing the "Yes on Recall" vote over 50%, and then potentially having that backup candidate lose out to the Republican. Again, that's just hubris. In a scenario you describe where a candidate where someone, say a former action movie star, wins with 48.6% of the vote in a crowded field, that's called "democracy." What they are saying is, "We believe in democracy, as long as we win."
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Aug 15, 2021 16:13
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confused posted:Even Gray Davis had enough braincells to rub together to think, "Gee, I might lose this. Letting my Lt. Governor be on the ticket seems like a good backup plan!" Not only was the election different back then (it was an unusually popular Special Election), but the party registration stats were different back then too: on 8/8/2003 it was a 44.1% - 35.3% - 15.7% Dem - Rep - Ind split among registered voters, while as of 7/16/2021 it's 46.5% - 24.1% - 23.3%. I'd think the Democratic Party would have an easier time running a backup candidate, but maybe they don't have the right person in the party, and it's just crap all the way down. P.S. Still disappointed there was no The Rock campaign for governor. BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 16:21
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BeAuMaN posted:For the record: While I agree with the main premise of your post, the history on that is that Bustamante put himself on the ballot against the wishes of the party, who wanted to not run a backup candidate at all. After that happened the party slowly came around sort-of, and after they lost they blamed it on Bustamante at least in some part. However, despite Bustamante's flaws, I'm pretty sure the Recall succeeded because Grey Davis was very unpopular (whether all that unpopularity was justified or not), which lost question 1, and because Bustamante was a less popular candidate than Schwarzenegger. I don't think Bustamante caused many people to show up and vote Yes on Recall, but I can't prove that either. Thanks for the info. You are probably right. I was making a facetious point so I didn't bother going back to look exactly what the dynamics were.
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Aug 15, 2021 16:33
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confused posted:Again, that's just hubris. In a scenario you describe where a candidate where someone, say a former action movie star, wins with 48.6% of the vote in a crowded field, that's called "democracy." What they are saying is, "We believe in democracy, as long as we win." The 2003 recall was a situation where the majority of people just wanted Davis out, period, and in that case the Dems were screwed no matter what strategy they took. Having a backup candidate didn't save them. As for "democracy", it's worth reiterating that the Republicans engineered this recall explicitly because they're hoping to eke out a narrow victory in a low-turnout election, because they know that the voters would likely re-elect Newsom in the regular election next year.
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Aug 15, 2021 16:40
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DaveWoo posted:The 2003 recall was a situation where the majority of people just wanted Davis out, period, and in that case the Dems were screwed no matter what strategy they took. Having a backup candidate didn't save them. Understood, but that's the rules of the game. I think the recall is silly, but they followed the rules and made it happen. I'm not a fan of Newsom, but I didn't have any burning need to see him recalled. However, I'm not at all mad at them for making it happen. Speaking of hubris, how funny is it that both Biden AND Harris are going to come out and stump for Newsom. I totally understand Biden, but have they seen Harris' approval ratings recently? Don't the remember that one the big reasons Harris dropped out of the primary was that was completely obvious that she was going to lose her home state by like 50 points? They might be better off trying some reverse phycology and have her stump in favor of the recall. If they were smart, they would cut a deal with Bernie related to the reconciliation bill and get him stumping with Biden.
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Aug 15, 2021 16:49
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confused posted:Understood, but that's the rules of the game. I think the recall is silly, but they followed the rules and made it happen. I'm not a fan of Newsom, but I didn't have any burning need to see him recalled. However, I'm not at all mad at them for making it happen. The rules are the rules, sure. Not disputing that. As for Biden/Harris, a new poll just came out this morning showing Biden and Harris at 64% and 60% approval among California voters, respectively, slightly above Gavin's own approval rating at 57%. So they're probably not doing any harm by coming to stump for Newsom.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:05
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fermun posted:No, I am saying that I think unions should exist, unlike the "socialist" goon. look up the party he's running on for gently caress's sake. As a goon that didn't know what socislism was 2 years ago can you help lay out what you mean? I thought a general criticism was that there is a lot of evidence that some unions become more aligned with Capital and seem to be engines for extracting some money from workers by "professional union beurocrats" siding with Capital against the interests of the rank and file. These unions may try to preserve what they have, conserve, but slowly yet surely they allow it to be chipped away. So there's a push for worker run unions and organizing at the shop level, real democracy in the workplace, like what the IWW seem to represent. So as someone new to this can you help me understand why you're so angry and claiming this person isn't a socialist? And a grifter? That's a really serious accusation. I'm also curious to know which candidate the DSA is endorsing and which candidate personally you would put on question 2. droll fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Aug 15, 2021 |
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Aug 15, 2021 17:18
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Canasta_Nasty posted:I understand the sentiment and last year teaching was something of a nightmare. It gave me flashbacks to my first year on an emergency credential with no experience when I was thrown into an SDC. Seems like it would be a good time to start separating schools from not-school social services. Like, I don’t care if they’re on the same physical campus as schools, but this whole “schools need to be open so children can have food” thing is ridiculous. It’s why we can’t seem to separate “schools need to be open for social services” from “kids better know all the math skills we’d normally expect them to know.” In my area, the county already runs child support services through offices at our schools. If schools are closed for education, it’s not like there will be lack of space for other agencies to run and provide services. Creating a new social services organization, or expanding existing ones, is a pretty big ordeal but so is closing schools at this point. Why go for big change but leave one of the biggest nonsense structures intact. I’m fine with being redirected from education to social services btw. It’s just when it’s my principal running those social services, no matter what we do, there’s an undercurrent of “if you’re not teaching rigorous academics now, you’re not doing your job.” It’s distracting from our goal of actually tackling the pandemic.
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Aug 15, 2021 17:47
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DaveWoo posted:The rules are the rules, sure. Not disputing that. Thanks for the info. I've only heard reporting on Harris' national approval ratings lately. Am I correct that those are underwater? IIRC, the party is starting to freak out about it WRT 2024.
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Aug 15, 2021 18:07
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confused posted:Thanks for the info. I've only heard reporting on Harris' national approval ratings lately. Am I correct that those are underwater? IIRC, the party is starting to freak out about it WRT 2024. Only according to right wing media really
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Aug 15, 2021 18:33
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Hawkperson posted:Seems like it would be a good time to start separating schools from not-school social services. There's a reason there's been a 10-ish year push to find ways to bring health and mental care providers into schools -- either by community partnerships or by giving them dedicated building spaces at/next to schools. I mean, absolutely decouple the responsibility of being therapist/social worker/teacher from educators.
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Aug 15, 2021 18:44
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Okan170 posted:Only according to right wing media really I looked up the poll, it's Economist/YouGov: https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/v60y11605p/econTabReport.pdf She's at -2.
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Aug 15, 2021 18:48
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FilthyImp posted:That seems like a huge step backwards for a lot of at-risk kids. It seems good in theory but in practice... I think we're in agreement. Like I said, my area already has non-school agencies present in our schools to offer services we really shouldn't be providing like weekly intensive therapy for students who need it. I'm fine with those things physically staying at school sites (in fact, let's expand school sites physically to include more space for offices and services like this). But my admin, much as I think they are excellent school admin, shouldn't be running the drat stuff. And now that food services for children in California is universal (as it should be), I don't really see why that's a district-controlled thing either. Before they maybe needed to interface to see who "deserved" food or whatever bullshit. Now, gently caress it, there's got to be a better way to administer that poo poo.
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Aug 15, 2021 18:52
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confused posted:I looked up the poll, it's Economist/YouGov: https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/v60y11605p/econTabReport.pdf harris is about as popular as pence was, which is concerning for the democrats since she was supposed to be the future of the party whereas pence for the republicans was just some guy in a suit
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Aug 15, 2021 18:57
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It's five days old but LA Times has a pretty good breakdown here: https://www.latimes.com/projects/kamala-harris-approval-rating-polls-vs-biden-other-vps/ Here are the five most recent polls. Throw out the Fox News one and she's sitting at around -3ish on average: 
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Aug 15, 2021 19:11
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droll posted:As a goon that didn't know what socislism was 2 years ago can you help lay out what you mean? I thought a general criticism was that there is a lot of evidence that some unions become more aligned with Capital and seem to be engines for extracting some money from workers by "professional union beurocrats" siding with Capital against the interests of the rank and file. These unions may try to preserve what they have, conserve, but slowly yet surely they allow it to be chipped away. So there's a push for worker run unions and organizing at the shop level, real democracy in the workplace, like what the IWW seem to represent. So as someone new to this can you help me understand why you're so angry and claiming this person isn't a socialist? And a grifter? That's a really serious accusation. I'm also curious to know which candidate the DSA is endorsing and which candidate personally you would put on question 2. socialism is about organizing the working class as broadly as possible which is complicated and hard. socialist candidate goon is a member of one of those tiny groups that doesn't think anyone is doing socialism right, reply guy goon is one of those socialists who really hates socialists of the first type. none of it ultimately matters, just like it literally does not matter who you vote for in the election or why. best you can do is talk to your coworkers and go from there.
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Aug 15, 2021 19:35
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Harris always had negative charisma but good luck convincing the party apparatus of that. They want President Harris and VP Buttigieg and they're going to ram it down our throats come hell or high water (both of which are coming as the leaders of both parties link arms and cheerfully march into global climate death).
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Aug 15, 2021 20:04
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Centrist Committee posted:socialism is about organizing the working class as broadly as possible which is complicated and hard. socialist candidate goon is a member of one of those tiny groups that doesn't think anyone is doing socialism right, reply guy goon is one of those socialists who really hates socialists of the first type. none of it ultimately matters, just like it literally does not matter who you vote for in the election or why. best you can do is talk to your coworkers and go from there. This is a pretty good summary.
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Aug 15, 2021 20:47
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fermun posted:This is a pretty good summary. So the SEP candidate is a socialist and is not a grifter? Or if you maintain these then I'd really like to understand why. Feel free to PM me?
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Aug 15, 2021 20:51
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Harris always had negative charisma but good luck convincing the party apparatus of that. They want President Harris and VP Buttigieg and they're going to ram it down our throats come hell or high water (both of which are coming as the leaders of both parties link arms and cheerfully march into global climate death). It's okay what Kamala lacks in charisma she makes up for with incredible strategy and a keen political insti- https://twitter.com/MikePrysner/status/1427008798468698118 Oh whoops, lol.
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Aug 15, 2021 22:25
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Sydin posted:Oh whoops, lol. https://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/256576278818353152
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Aug 15, 2021 22:28
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Better late than never!!!!
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Aug 16, 2021 01:30
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Sydin posted:It's okay what Kamala lacks in charisma she makes up for with incredible strategy and a keen political insti- Withdrawal from Afghanistan will have no effect on poll numbers or political outcomes. Literally nobody that's not at the Pentagon or booked for cable TV cares.
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Aug 16, 2021 17:12
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Between the corporate backed corruption of the originally extremely progressive-era Proposition system and the ability to recall a governor with such an almost comically low amount of voters needed to initiate the process, you’d think that things are pretty hosed up currently! Fun fact: the direct-voter action proposition system was put in place to circumvent the Southern Pacific railway’s complete monopoly on corrupt control over the state’s politicians, regardless of party affiliation. Amazing how quickly propositions were then just corrupted as well to benefit corporate interests. Edit - “the Curse of California” 
jeeves fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 17:20
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AngryBooch posted:Withdrawal from Afghanistan will have no effect on poll numbers or political outcomes. Literally nobody that's not at the Pentagon or booked for cable TV cares. You don’t think the Democrats losing a war in a spectacularly embarrassing manner on live TV in front of the entire world is going to have any political ramifications? Did you forget there was another president between Obama and Biden?
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Aug 16, 2021 17:46
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Centrist Committee posted:You don’t think the Democrats losing a war in a spectacularly embarrassing manner on live TV in front of the entire world is going to have any political ramifications? Did you forget there was another president between Obama and Biden? I think the majority of Americans see this as an absolute loving win actually.
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Aug 16, 2021 17:49
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I feel like we're getting a bit far afield from the topic of California politics here. Anyway, more recall stuff: https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1427309958886924291 https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1427310569166573569
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Aug 16, 2021 18:09
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AngryBooch posted:I think the majority of Americans see this as an absolute loving win actually. Not sure how you can live in the US in 2021 and give Americans this much credit. Americans HATE losing after a lifetime of propaganda about how we're actually the best, and even people who might have generally supported leaving might not like how things are falling out as a result. Cue the media leaning into the "BIDEN LOST THE WAR" bullshit as hard as they can. The MIC is clearly fretting over the loss over one of their Forever Wars and doing everything they can to channel that angst through their bought and paid for talking heads. Now, if the polls six months from now show that Americans are happy we left then I'll say the Dems navigated this successfully, but they're going to need to message aggressively. And they'd better hope there isn't even a minor terror attack anywhere in the west in the meantime, because the insipid "see, we stopped fighting them over there and they came over here!" nonsense writes itself. Seems like a good strategy. Californians are tired of the pandemic and tying more pandemic to the Republicans and the recall effort at large is going to be a lot more effective than trying to beat the Trump drum continuously.
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Aug 16, 2021 18:22
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AngryBooch posted:I think the majority of Americans see this as an absolute loving win actually. Yeah, the public supported pulling out. The actual pull out is kind of a loving disaster but I don't think anyone is being moved out of where they were politically before because this war has been invisible to the public for more than a decade. And then you have complete morons like this: https://twitter.com/RealCandaceO/status/1426939081641107456?s=20
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Aug 16, 2021 18:23
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That person is a grifter that deliberately says those things. They know exactly what they're doing. They are absolutely not a moron.
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Aug 16, 2021 18:30
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DaveWoo posted:I feel like we're getting a bit far afield from the topic of California politics here. "GOP Recall!" I shout as I primarily attack a non-GOP candidate who the GOP pointedly refused to endorse.
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Aug 16, 2021 18:31
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Whats the likelihood of Newsom getting recalled? Google has some results which appear to be a few months old. Among other things, im worried about a republican governor swooping in and going full DeSantis on covid.
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Aug 16, 2021 19:52
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I'm going to write in Tag the Kodiak bear
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Aug 16, 2021 19:56
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buglord posted:Whats the likelihood of Newsom getting recalled? Google has some results which appear to be a few months old. Among other things, im worried about a republican governor swooping in and going full DeSantis on covid. No on the recall is winning in most of the recent polls but by slim margins of four to six points. Right now I'd say it's leaning no but it's pretty close to a coin flip. Gonna come down to turnout.
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Aug 16, 2021 19:56
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