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Terminal autist posted:So would you say its a cultural or genetical deficiency that results in the average person from the middle east yearning for authoritarianism? The "average Middle-Eastern country" is built on some combination of theocracy and democracy, the question is where on the scale they fall. In the case of Afghanistan, the people wanted the Taliban to win. Possibly because the Taliban paid them more. I do not think the people in general love authoritarianism, but many like the kind of things that it brings about, like religious police keeping the LGBTs down. There are people who actually like that sort of thing happening and aren't considered radical for it, and our eyes see it very differently. I get what you're going with the whole "we're all humans" thing but please don't pretend that centuries of religious rule even if only in name doesn't change people's perspective somewhat. If the USA was officially named "The Christian Republic of the United States" I would be uncomfortable with where are freedoms are even if the country doesn't change overnight. (EDIT: This definitely isn't exclusive to the ME either. There are Chinese people who don't think authoritarianism is ideal on paper but have convinced themselves that the PRC's human rights abuses on Muslims is necessary.) Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 01:06
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Discospawn posted:"Airport is taking fire, we're sending troops to take care of it." Send in more airports!
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Aug 16, 2021 01:22
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Why didn't America "highway of death" the Taliban as they were moving from province to province?
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Aug 16, 2021 01:30
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Fumble posted:Why didn't America "highway of death" the Taliban as they were moving from province to province? Part of the pull out over the past few months has been a big decrease in flight operations over the country. There have been some bombings of Taliban movements the past week but nowhere near what was happening in 2018.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:32
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Zotix posted:It's over. man imagine if we had just fully pulled out then  Fumble posted:Why didn't America "highway of death" the Taliban as they were moving from province to province? the us has been past the point of being able to kill their way out of defeat for at least a decade. And it's not for lack of trying. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 01:35
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Fumble posted:Why didn't America "highway of death" the Taliban as they were moving from province to province? They tried but the Taliban managed to counter it by running across the Pakistan border and screaming "BASE!"
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Aug 16, 2021 01:41
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Why didn't we just nuke the Taliban? ?!?
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Aug 16, 2021 01:42
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It's so off putting to hear states referred to as "we" like a nation state is an embodiment of you. Or even if you are a nationalist, like you have any influence on the US military
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Aug 16, 2021 01:53
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Fumble posted:Why didn't America "highway of death" the Taliban as they were moving from province to province?
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Aug 16, 2021 01:55
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Herstory Begins Now posted:man imagine if we had just fully pulled out then Unfortunately the US only learned from that one and applied it a few months ago for Covid-19.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:57
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Fumble posted:Why didn't America "highway of death" the Taliban as they were moving from province to province? We tried but unfortunately we just incinerated a large amount of wedding parties. Oh well, what can ya do.
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Aug 16, 2021 01:59
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Herstory Begins Now posted:man imagine if we had just fully pulled out then I don’t see how warlords and ISIS completely and utterly taking over Iraq is a missed memory to be fondly what-iffed about personally
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Aug 16, 2021 02:04
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THis would have all been prevented if we wouldn't have given Kuwait slant drilling tech.
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Aug 16, 2021 02:12
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https://twitter.com/JawadSukhanyar/status/1427087901511278592 rushing to what is apparently the last flight permitted to land. NATO forces apparently firing into the air to try and turn the mob away. this is looking nothing like Saigon, it is worse. e: https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1427128710906458114 wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 04:26
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drunkill posted:https://twitter.com/whatismoo/status/1426939056970244103 mission accomplished 
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Aug 16, 2021 04:39
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Craptacular! posted:The "average Middle-Eastern country" is built on some combination of theocracy and democracy, the question is where on the scale they fall. In the case of Afghanistan, the people wanted the Taliban to win. Possibly because the Taliban paid them more. I do not think the people in general love authoritarianism, but many like the kind of things that it brings about, like religious police keeping the LGBTs down. There are people who actually like that sort of thing happening and aren't considered radical for it, and our eyes see it very differently. An addendum here is also that democracy is pretty worthless if you don't have strong institutions loyal to the idea of nation-state and democracy. Sure you get to vote, but what does it matter if someone powerful keeps stuffing the ballots and nothing that goes on in the government effects you. Democracies are incredibly motivating institutions once they're going, but getting there is not necessarily that easy (and voting is often one of the least important and last parts of it if you look at the succesful democracies of west and asia).
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Aug 16, 2021 05:17
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I guess it's easy to forget about folk like Mosaddegh, and how we actively boosted fundamentalists because they were willing to be fervently anti-communist.
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Aug 16, 2021 05:22
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Lets talk about whats going to happen to the ANA SF guys that the US actually made a fascist fighting force out of. What will happen to them? Will picked soldiers from the units be turned into our newest assets in the region? Or will they roll over to russia My theory is that many will roll over as it gives them safe haven in Russia / Uzbekistan. then they are run as mercs melded into a wagner style group. It will be an interesting story to know, hope someone covers it over the next few years. Here we go the wikis are being updated  And for our timeline  quote:Afghan President Ashraf Ghani: The Taliban imposed their authority by force of arms Unlike the taliban, the Ghani did project his authority with force. 
WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 05:26
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Here we go the wikis are being updated The president-in-exile sips his tea, delegating his various potential duties to the rest of the government-in-exile. His general-in-exile informs him that the army-in-exile's quantum morale is high. He's established diplomatic relations with the other possible governments; Juan Guaido of Venezuela, Ivonka Survilla of Belarus, and Poochie of Itchy&Scratchy. With such alternative-allies at his side, the recapture of Afghanistan within the next hundred years is certain.
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Aug 16, 2021 05:40
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-afghanistan-surrender-withdrawal-ashraf-ghani-kabul-saigon-jihadist-9-11-11629054041?mod=e2tw the media is very upset that they have no more fall back war to cover https://twitter.com/NicolaCareem/status/1427122975971561475 wisconsingreg fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 05:49
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Getting real Retreat from Kabul vibes from those airport scenes. Seriously, read the original Flashman novel: they abandoned all the locals then as well, not that it did them any good in the end.
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Aug 16, 2021 06:01
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Flashman posted:All that afternoon we toiled on, and we were long short of Khoord-Kabul when night came freezing down. The Afghans hung on our flanks, and when men—aye, and women and children—dropped by the wayside, they were pounced on as soon as the column had passed and murdered. The Afghans saw that our chiefs were not prepared to fight back, so they snapped at our heels, making little sorties on the baggage train, cutting up the native drivers, and scattering into the rocks only when our cavalry approached. Already the column was falling into utter disorder; the main body gave no thought to the thousands of native camp-followers, who were bitterly affected by the cold and want of food; hundreds fell by the way, so that in our wake there was a litter not only of bundles and baggage, but of corpses. And this was within a twenty-minute gallop of Kabul.
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Aug 16, 2021 06:05
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Kind of annoyed that I can't change the taliban's wikipedia page to state "The Afghan Security Forces" instead of Taliban
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Aug 16, 2021 06:10
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Just in case people try to retcon this https://twitter.com/JeromeTaylor/status/1427134648228859912 it was never about Afghan civilians
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Aug 16, 2021 06:16
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Aug 16, 2021 06:22
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the way America is treating their collaborators with such open contempt and refusing to let go of their stupid Visa beuracracy bin the face of the situation is a really good lesson for anyone else in the world who was thinking of helping out the US in any future endeavor lol.
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Aug 16, 2021 06:22
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https://twitter.com/IntelWalrus/status/1427126651272433664?s=19
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Aug 16, 2021 06:23
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MiddleOne posted:An addendum here is also that democracy is pretty worthless if you don't have strong institutions loyal to the idea of nation-state and democracy. Sure you get to vote, but what does it matter if someone powerful keeps stuffing the ballots and nothing that goes on in the government effects you. Democracies are incredibly motivating institutions once they're going, but getting there is not necessarily that easy (and voting is often one of the least important and last parts of it if you look at the succesful democracies of west and asia). We.. we're still talking about Afghanistan yeah?
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Aug 16, 2021 06:27
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Aug 16, 2021 06:29
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This isn't Saigon. It's much, much worse. https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1427148181238919169 edit: Might be the result of a stampede https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1427149873305038850 Boat Stuck fucked around with this message at 07:17 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 07:11
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Boat Stuck posted:This isn't Saigon. It's much, much worse. Confirmed now. Seems that American forces have opened up on the crowd, a lot of fire at the airport. https://twitter.com/newley/status/1427159864413855744 https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1427153990295461893 https://twitter.com/ahmermkhan/status/1427159196953239561
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Aug 16, 2021 07:54
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LOLLLL https://twitter.com/javedhassan/status/1427160135894503427?s=21 The Chinese are A+ trolls
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Aug 16, 2021 08:00
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Airport perimeter is gone https://twitter.com/SowaibahH/status/1427165408931446787
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Aug 16, 2021 08:37
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https://twitter.com/PriapusIQ/status/1427158703816519680?s=20 This is way more damning of the US's presence than any violent clashes would have been.
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Aug 16, 2021 09:04
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MiddleOne posted:Sure you get to vote, but what does it matter if someone powerful keeps stuffing the ballots and nothing that goes on in the government effects you. This is sort of why I gave up on Afghanistan around 2009 when Karzai retained power on questionable terms. I kind of feel the state we created at gunpoint has handed Abdullah Abdullah in particular a poo poo sandwich repeatedly. Lost presidency twice, was put in charge of negotiating with the Taliban when he threatened to form a splinter government, and is now making videos begging the Taliban to please be gentle with their carnage. Maybe he should have never been President but he's at least putting on a public face instead of hiding in exile.
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Aug 16, 2021 09:05
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So in general terms I'm still in the camp of blaming presidents in the order they started/inherited the war, with Bush first and Biden last, but holy poo poo was this withdrawal botched, and Biden gets stuck with some blame for that, he deserves it. Withdrawing is good, but it didn't have to be this much of a poo poo show. https://twitter.com/ThreshedThought/status/1427099866723848195 Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Aug 16, 2021 |
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Aug 16, 2021 10:04
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I feel so sorry for the people of Kabul, what a terrifying situation to be in. Those reports from the airport are heartbreaking.
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Aug 16, 2021 10:15
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The fact that the Taliban have had such an unexpectedly quick and easy victory might in hindsight be seen as a good thing as it allows them to be magnanimous victors and avoided filling the majority of their fighters with bloodlust. Obviously right now the intent of the Taliban is unclear so it may of course end up with a despotic violent theocracy that's no better than the worst fears. At least there is some hope of a slightly better outcome.
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Aug 16, 2021 10:22
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Flayer posted:The fact that the Taliban have had such an unexpectedly quick and easy victory might in hindsight be seen as a good thing as it allows them to be magnanimous victors and avoided filling the majority of their fighters with bloodlust. What do you mean 'the intent of the Taliban is unclear'? Their fundamental intent as a political entity has been open and explicit for 30 years.
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Aug 16, 2021 10:28
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Vasukhani posted:https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-afghanistan-surrender-withdrawal-ashraf-ghani-kabul-saigon-jihadist-9-11-11629054041?mod=e2tw yep, this video is gonna be plastered all over the place in the coming weeks, this is straightup george lucas "its like poetry, it rhymes" in terms of imagery
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Aug 16, 2021 10:31
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