|
mellonbread posted:I would argue that the "pseudo medieval" kingdoms in something like D&D or Pathfinder are superficially medieval, but actually have most of the trappings of a modern centralized nation state. Centralized bureaucracies, professional standing armies, and other developments made possible by advances in food production and communications technology. Which is completely logical when you factor in how widely available magic lets you duplicate the technological innovations that make those things possible. They keep the gloss of feudalism, with kings and dukes and networks of social obligation, similar to how real life nation states kept the trappings of medieval society long after their actual function had been replaced by other forms of social organization. It's always struck me that D&D's settings are more like Westerns with swords and wizards than anything actually medieval.
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 20:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:49 |
|
|
PeterWeller posted:It's always struck me that D&D's settings are more like Westerns with swords and wizards than anything actually medieval. They absolutely are based on Gygax and it was intentional, because he wanted stories about the slaughter of 'savages'. The LOtR trappings were put in to be marketable; Gygax hated Tolkien's work, from what I remember. Gygax was absolute scum and the more our hobby washes away his influence the better.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 20:42
|
|
|
D&D is set on "the frontier" because setting it in an established medieval world with feudalism is boring. I don't want to ask the local lord's permission to go dungeoneering on his land, then pay half my earnings as a tithe to the fifth estate. I don't want to explore an area that's already been extensively mapped, with every square inch of land already recorded in a system of property deeds going back hundreds of years. You could definitely run an exciting Crusader Kings style game about feuding feudal lords, but at that point you're in a completely different genre of RPG, more Pendragon than D20 fantasy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 20:50
|
|
|
Eh, I don't think that the default assumption about D&D's setting is quite like that. My understanding was more like early medieval European kingdoms (and ancient Chinese hegemons) where you have a bunch of petty kings claiming dominion over more land than they can even properly survey, much less settle and develop. Of course, there are anachronisms like full suits of plate armour.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 20:56
|
|
|
Night10194 posted:They absolutely are based on Gygax and it was intentional, because he wanted stories about the slaughter of 'savages'. The LOtR trappings were put in to be marketable; Gygax hated Tolkien's work, from what I remember. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 21:07
|
|
|
Modrons are chaotic neutral; the idea that they're lawful is a sham. (Alternate take: the fact that modrons are for all intents and purposes creatures of chaos (in that they do whatever they want according to principles that cannot adequately be explained) is a useful illustration of the fact that "law" and "chaos" are meaningless except in a specific and defined context.) (Much like alignment in general! These grids are useful once you define what "law" and "good" actually are; Robin Hood is the epitome of Chaotic Good but he's only Chaotic Good in the context of Prince John's corrupt regency. When considered in the context of the rule of the Lionheart, he's Lawful Good.)
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 21:13
|
|
|
Fairies are the real Lawful Neutral beings. They have extremely strict codes of law that even their mightiest lords and ladies can't violate. They just appear chaotic to outsiders because their rules are hard to understand, in the same way a caveman would have trouble following oral arguments in a supreme court case.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 21:17
|
|
|
found the thread I was talking about earlier; https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/new-more-coherent-fiend-aesthetics.862371/ thread's whole idea is trying to make the various Demon/Devil/Whatever factions more aesthetically cohesive internally(since the classic ones are a tad messy in that regard), and many of the ideas given in that thread have quite excellent results(like someone should make some Doom mods with these ideas)
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 21:25
|
|
|
mellonbread posted:I would argue that the "pseudo medieval" kingdoms in something like D&D or Pathfinder are superficially medieval, but actually have most of the trappings of a modern centralized nation state. Centralized bureaucracies, professional standing armies, and other developments made possible by advances in food production and communications technology. Which is completely logical when you factor in how widely available magic lets you duplicate the technological innovations that make those things possible. They keep the gloss of feudalism, with kings and dukes and networks of social obligation, similar to how real life nation states kept the trappings of medieval society long after their actual function had been replaced by other forms of social organization. This led me down a chain of thought just now. First - those beautiful 1950s american cars kept in running order by dedicated Cuban mechanics living under a half century of trade embargo. And then, to a quasi-medieval technology level despite forces that ought to change that, in a prime material plane, due not to an inexplicable halt in the flow of ideas and technology, but rather, because of intentional outside interference. E.g., the Prime Material Plane is under a technology embargo. Maybe they have lasers and space ships in the Plane of Space and maybe they have modern capitalism over in the Seventh Hell, but powerful entities forbid the flow of those things to the Prime Material (for whatever reason you'd care to invent). mellonbread posted:D&D is set on "the frontier" because setting it in an established medieval world with feudalism is boring. I don't want to ask the local lord's permission to go dungeoneering on his land, then pay half my earnings as a tithe to the fifth estate. I don't want to explore an area that's already been extensively mapped, with every square inch of land already recorded in a system of property deeds going back hundreds of years. 1970s D&D worlds owe a lot to Howard's Hyborian Age, which was sprinkled liberally with Not-Rome, Not-Vikings, Not-ancient-Egypt, etc. all without regard to the thousands of years of technology differences between them, there's steel and bronze and galleons and longships and stirrups but whatever, it's all a bygone age among several ancient and ancienter bygone ages that have risen and fallen over and over, leaving ruins to explore and vast wildernesses and so on etc. This setting does not trouble itself to try and explain how its economies function or how a huge city in the desert feeds itself, because the narrative focus is on one individual character and his high adventures, not on filling sourcebooks with plausible societal structures with 30d6 level 1 workers per Small Town each making 1 SP per week. The primary setting differences are that D&D also has high magic crammed in, where you can be a wizard and not be consumed by writhing elder gods for your trouble; and it also has lord of the rings nonhuman people who can be lovely smart long-lived elves and adorable thieving halflings as opposed to some degenerate race of ghouls or half-apes per Howard. Howard's influence on fantasy setting tropes from ~1930 through to the mid-70s when Gygax was going ham is enormous, probably almost as important as Tolkien's.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 21:26
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Modrons are chaotic neutral; the idea that they're lawful is a sham. When you really get down to it, Modrons are more the personification of bureaucracy and I think are much more fun to use if you lean into that fact. "Oh I'm sorry, your question is outside the scope of my department. I'll have to transfer you to my Pentadrone manager..." "Oh I'm sorry, your question is outside the scope of my department. I'll have to transfer you to my Decaton manager..." "Oh I'm sorry, your question is outside the scope of my department. I'll have to transfer you to my Nonaton manager..." "Oh I'm sorry, your question is outside the scope of my department. I'll have to transfer you to my Octon manager..." "Okay, I can help you with this, but you''ll need to fill out form QF-867-B. You can get this from my Nonaton subordinate..." "Oh I don't manage those forms myself, you'll have to talk to my Decaton subordinate..."
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 21:51
|
|
|
I also suspect some technologies don't take hold in a "high magic" setting because widely available magic items make them seemingly obsolete. A modern firearm with a magazine and metallic cartridges using smokeless powder would be a game changer, but a muzzleloading black powder gun isn't obviously better than a wand of magic missile, which has various advantages such as always hitting the target. And the muzzleloading black powder gun is the one that you can build at your current technology level, the precision machining, metalurgy and chemistry needed to make the modern gun don't exist yet in your world. You could get a wizard to shape/synthesize the necessary components, but if you need a magician to even make the drat thing, you might as well cut out the middleman and just make a magic weapon. You could transplant the entire industrial base necessary to make the advanced technology. That's basically what an Illithid Nautilus is. A mobile factory, laboratory and library, capable of establishing a colony and building an entire civilization from local resources.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 21:59
|
|
|
Jester Mcgee posted:The clown mod was originally made for Dominions 4 by forums poster Mu, but I don't know if they had anything to do with porting it to Dominions 5. Either way the mod is a treasure. Originally ported by another goon but later updated by Mu., who added new content such as 
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 22:00
|
|
|
KingKalamari posted:When you really get down to it, Modrons are more the personification of bureaucracy and I think are much more fun to use if you lean into that fact. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtEkUmYecnk
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 22:28
|
|
|
OpenlyEvilJello posted:Originally ported by another goon but later updated by Mu., who added new content such as moths posted:Did we ever find out where that Barrier Peaks UFO came from?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 22:51
|
|
|
D&D is on the Plane of LARP. Ravenloft is the intersection of it and the 90’s White Wolf plane. Wait poo poo now I want planes based on genre, so there’s a Plane of Noir and a Plane of Sitcoms and a Plane of Quirky Indie Romance and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2021 23:38
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:D&D is on the Plane of LARP. This implies potential sub-planes like the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Manic Pixie Dream Girls.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 00:07
|
|
|
The Demiplane of Action One-Liners. The Realm of Infinite Meet-Cutes. A beloved NPC is wounded so the party must seek aid from through a portal to Medykul Dra-ma, a frightening and strange world filled with healers having secret trysts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 00:31
|
|
|
This line of discussion is straying dangerously close to the premise of the Gex the Gecko games
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 02:05
|
|
|
Medykul Dra-ma, you say?
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 02:14
|
|
|
Asterite34 posted:This line of discussion is straying dangerously close to the premise of the Gex the Gecko games Reminds me how I describe the Elemental Chaos as basically Super Mario Galaxy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 09:02
|
|
|
Xiahou Dun posted:The Demiplane of Action One-Liners.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 09:16
|
|
|
Asterite34 posted:This line of discussion is straying dangerously close to the premise of the Gex the Gecko games
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 10:22
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Reminds me how I describe the Elemental Chaos as basically Super Mario Galaxy. In my interpretation, Limbo looks like a really trippy Earthbound battle backdrop
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 14:41
|
|
|
Well gently caress, now I want to play a Godbound/Exalted tier game centered on Sigil. Where everybody moves around the Great Wheel with ease and I've got to write up a Five Demiplane Dungeon.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 15:11
|
|
|
Plutonis posted:yugoloths are cool. they got the sigma grindset of being evil for the sake of themselves, none of the chaos vs law poo poo yeah!!! also they're like Literally Capitalists which you'd figure people would care more about nowadays. time to make a tedious four hour long video essay explaining this, poorly, and ignoring all the ways it doesn't work. by the end of it we'll still have no idea why the gently caress ultroloths look like grey aliens tho
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 16:19
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Thematically, to me a multiverse type situation demands more of a RIFTS-like mishmash of hyper-tech and swords than a D&D-style mishmash of high magic doohickies, scrolls of Wish, and swords. mellonbread posted:I also suspect some technologies don't take hold in a "high magic" setting because widely available magic items make them seemingly obsolete. A modern firearm with a magazine and metallic cartridges using smokeless powder would be a game changer, but a muzzleloading black powder gun isn't obviously better than a wand of magic missile, which has various advantages such as always hitting the target. So like mellonbread says, there's very little incentive to spend a century or more focusing on basic science research and prototype engineering to get to a point where their armies have mass-produced muskets, let alone an M1 Garand. (Plus, there are other ways to get the same result--like, if you're a demon lord and you want your dretches to be able to kill things a hundred yards away, the answer might be to breed a new race of dretches that can do that. The answer might also be to create a few demon-mages who are walking artillery units and forget about mass infantry formations. The possibilities are endless.) So I go with the Dying Earth rationale that because most people are just looking for practical results, magic is more craft than science and basic science-magical research is the purview of gentleman magicians with too much free time. Plus, there are so many fallen empires literally underfoot that it's more efficient to try and dig up magical secrets than discover them. Warfare and disaster also tends to quash economic and scientific progress.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 16:43
|
|
|
Inevitables were a mistake to drop for 4e mind, they're an awesome idea; divine Terminators enforcing laws and edicts no matter what, and more likely to cause trouble than end it. Like that one in Elder Evils who's out to free a universe-destroying abomination simply because the gods broke a promise they made to it. (this is why your archetypical divine tricksters are the type who don't need to lie to be deceptive, because otherwise they might face consequences)
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 16:51
|
|
|
Rand Brittain posted:Modrons are chaotic neutral; the idea that they're lawful is a sham. I can rationalize the Law/Chaos conflict in a number of ways, but making Good and Evil into particles is just completely hosed up in all kinds of ways. It creates absurd situations where a nonsentient sword can be good or evil, and an evil-typed creature can be good and vice versa. More importantly, alignment languages and spells like Detect Evil create problems in play. Your post gets me thinking, though: it's possible that that the Law/Chaos/Good/Evil dichotomies are just ideological positions that were staked out when the Dancers At The Beginning Of Time had a big stupid war, and now they're just ongoing political conflicts that your average yeoman has to suffer the consequences of. The forces of Good are "spreading democracy" by dropping fireballs on your village.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 17:04
|
|
|
Kobold Sex Tape posted:by the end of it we'll still have no idea why the gently caress ultroloths look like grey aliens tho IRL Grey Aliens are IRL demons. same with lizard aliens
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 17:08
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Inevitables were a mistake to drop for 4e mind, they're an awesome idea; divine Terminators enforcing laws and edicts no matter what, and more likely to cause trouble than end it. Like that one in Elder Evils who's out to free a universe-destroying abomination simply because the gods broke a promise they made to it. (this is why your archetypical divine tricksters are the type who don't need to lie to be deceptive, because otherwise they might face consequences) Inevitables were on 4e, no? I remember the MMs having Maruts
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 17:12
|
|
|
Plutonis posted:Inevitables were on 4e, no? I remember the MMs having Maruts If I remember correctly the inevitable narrative was dropped and they were just weird metal alien things, sadly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
Plutonis posted:IRL Grey Aliens are IRL demons. same with lizard aliens i've decided that my totally real 6 hour long yugoloth-capitalism connection youtube video will ramble about them representing the theory of alienation or something, and my cited sources will be wikipedia and other dudes who only skimmed wikipedia
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 17:55
|
|
|
From 4e onward I think the only inevitable we get is the marut. In 4e they just go around and punch liches for cheating death. In 5e the marut combines the different duties of inevitables into a catch-all CR 25 (!) monster.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 18:49
|
|
|
AD&D gave us the marut, I believe, in one of the Planescape monstrous compendium appendices. In 3.5 the marut was recast as 'an inevitable' and joined by the kolyarut and the... selekhut? I think? and they were all tasked with enforcing different kinds of law.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 19:24
|
|
|
Zephirum posted:From 4e onward I think the only inevitable we get is the marut. In 4e they just go around and punch liches for cheating death. In 5e the marut combines the different duties of inevitables into a catch-all CR 25 (!) monster. Can I just say that D&D in general and 5e in specific have way too many high CR monsters? In 5e's case in particular I feel like the game works best mechanically between levels 3-10, and most campaigns never really get past 12th level or so; so its really weird that there's all this content being created for a tier of play that most groups are never going to interact with. Obviously starting a game at a higher tier is always an options, but the surveys I'm familiar with show people don't do that as often as you expect and I honestly feel like character progression in D&D doesn't need to be 20 levels to begin with...
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
KingKalamari posted:Can I just say that D&D in general and 5e in specific have way too many high CR monsters? In 5e's case in particular I feel like the game works best mechanically between levels 3-10, and most campaigns never really get past 12th level or so; so its really weird that there's all this content being created for a tier of play that most groups are never going to interact with. I agree with this but part of it is it’s honestly kind of hard to write big memorable encounters at that level? Honestly the Epic Encounters 5E boxes look like an awesome product idea to help with that, it’s a shame the game/company they’re tied to.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
KingKalamari posted:Can I just say that D&D in general and 5e in specific have way too many high CR monsters? In 5e's case in particular I feel like the game works best mechanically between levels 3-10, and most campaigns never really get past 12th level or so; so its really weird that there's all this content being created for a tier of play that most groups are never going to interact with. especially because at higher levels it is often more interesting to bring together squads of lower level enemies that interact in fun ways
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 19:43
|
|
|
One of the better trends from 3e and 4e is making subtypes of popular monsters at various levels. It allows you to both have a squad of orcs that all behave differently in combat, and use iconic monsters before and after their usual level.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 19:49
|
|
|
KingKalamari posted:so its really weird that there's all this content being created for a tier of play that most groups are never going to interact with. “We love to buy
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 19:49
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:49 |
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:One of the better trends from 3e and 4e is making subtypes of popular monsters at various levels. It allows you to both have a squad of orcs that all behave differently in combat, and use iconic monsters before and after their usual level. That's actually what I really like about that 3rd-party Monster Manual Expanded product for 5e as it applies that same cocnept to 5e monsters. Even beyond just making certain monsters viable to use at any level it's also just way more interesting to have mechanically different varieties of orc to put together in the same encounter instead of them all being identical sacks of hit points.
|
|
#
?
Aug 20, 2021 19:53
|
|