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Epicurius posted:Berman and Braga tend to get lumped together as the "people who ruined Star Trek", but from all the stories I've heard, Braga was at worst a mediocre writing who could sometimes do good stuff, and that Berman was a lot more destructive to the franchise than Braga ever was. HD DAD posted:Yeah, Braga was a young writer with lots of super fun ideas, but it really seems like he got the joy beat out of him by Voyager/Berman/UPN and just stopped caring. Yeah, Braga was and I think still is good friend with Ron Moore and the pair collaborated frequently on TNG. I get the sense that Braga really wanted to do something similar to what Moore and co. were getting up to on Deep Space Nine on Voyager too, since they were largely off Berman's leash and in syndication so Paramount didn't give a poo poo what they did, but Voyager was under a microscope because Paramount wanted it to be TNG 2.0 and a more broadly accessible show. And that's just a breeding ground for creative misery. Michael Piller described it as being trapped inside "Roddenberry's Box" and how that box was a loving nightmare to try and write good stories in. So it was little wonder that once DS9 wrapped, Moore floated over to Voyager to try and help right the Status Quo Show and bounced after barely a year because it was impossible to write for the way he'd become accustomed to. I really feel for Braga sometimes, he wasn't that good all told, but he was the victim of other people's far greater incompetence and malice and he gets pinned with their share of the blame for things going to poo poo because his name was right underneath one of those greater assholes for hundreds of episodes' worth of television. Meanwhile someone like Les Moonves only got his proper public comeuppance because it turned out he was a prolific sexual predator, not for anything he did to intentionally destroy Star Trek. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 03:40
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Doggles posted:Do you remember the time Space Hilter defeated holograms from 1000 years in the future that she had never encountered before by deducing their weakness was blinking? Star Trek
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Aug 31, 2021 03:45
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Hollismason posted:I'm on Data Lore of TNG and it is kind of weird ot me that no one thought to go and investigate where Data was found They were worried they might find another one, and look what happened Data's enough for anyone
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Aug 31, 2021 03:56
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Brawnfire posted:They were worried they might find another one, and look what happened This is why I appreciate Lower Decks taking Starfleet to task for its awful habit of rolling up to somewhere, doing a day trip and maybe solving some local problem with troubling implications and then just loving off and never coming back to check on how things are going and then acting surprised when people go back to their old habits of like worshiping the murder computer again or whatnot.
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Aug 31, 2021 04:11
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Lore's first appearance is so good " Are you prepared for the death you've earned little man" is a great line.
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Aug 31, 2021 04:11
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Hollismason posted:Lore's first appearance is so good " Are you prepared for the death you've earned little man" is a great line. It's also hilarious how oblivious the Enterprise crew is to the fact that "Data" is no longer acting like Data more like a blatantly insane sociopath and every attempt from Wesley to try and warn them is greeted with "gently caress off, dork." Like Lore doesn't even really bother trying to pretend to be Data and everyone's like "Cool, I like the new you Mr. Data" as he's reaching inside them and reeling out their small intestines.
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Aug 31, 2021 04:12
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Hollismason posted:I'm on Data Lore of TNG and it is kind of weird ot me that no one thought to go and investigate where Data was found Early TNG kind of still has TOS’s sense that space is really big and empty and it takes a while to get anywhere, and sometimes places just drop off the map until another starship stumbles on them.
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Aug 31, 2021 04:13
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What are some favorite Star Trek quotes? Here is mine:
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Aug 31, 2021 04:17
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All time #1: "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid." Totally sums up the ethos of Star Trek, to me.
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Aug 31, 2021 04:22
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Doggles posted:Do you remember the time Space Hilter defeated holograms from 1000 years in the future that she had never encountered before by deducing their weakness was blinking? Yeah, I felt like she exploited a buffer overflow. Hey, did anyone watch the "Short Treks?" There was one called Callypso. The ship was sitting idle in a nebula for 1k years "waiting for the crew to return." Did I miss something? Discovery chilling alone for 1k years wasn't in seasons 1-3. Or is that something that's going to come up in the future? Fave quote from the DS9 baseball episode: Someone: "He's stealing third base!" Worf: "Find him and kill him!"
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Aug 31, 2021 04:43
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I don’t think that it’s been fully explained. I also really liked the Tribble short with H. Jon Benjamin.
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Aug 31, 2021 04:46
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Problematic Soup posted:I don’t think that it’s been fully explained. I also really liked the Tribble short with H. Jon Benjamin. Ok, I can dig that. I was just afraid I missed something.
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Aug 31, 2021 04:51
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Hollismason posted:What are some favorite Star Trek quotes? "All I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." You could feel the wind at your back in those days. The sounds of the sea beneath you. And even if you take away the wind and the water, it's still the same. The ship is yours, you can feel her. ...And the stars are still there, Bones.
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Aug 31, 2021 04:55
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For what’s it’s worth when one capital P Producer talks about another Producer from what I know Behr maintains that Berman never did anything to sabotage DS9, never had to hide anything from Berman to get it to air, that Berman never lost interest in DS9 to the point they were finally able to do all the things they wanted, and that once a decision was made by the show Berman was one of the best people they ever had in their corner when dealing with the studio. I mean, that couldn’t all be lies right  Hollismason posted:What are some favorite Star Trek quotes? Here is mine: Does an entire scene count? (1:23) https://youtu.be/ea1AJKnPVO8
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Aug 31, 2021 05:03
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Hollismason posted:What are some favorite Star Trek quotes? My oath of celibacy is on record, Captain.
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Aug 31, 2021 05:03
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Show idea: Lore Dex.
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Aug 31, 2021 05:03
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Throw this entire scene in there too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKzctU7k3Es&t=17s
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Aug 31, 2021 05:09
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Kibayasu posted:For what’s it’s worth when one capital P Producer talks about another Producer from what I know Behr maintains that Berman never did anything to sabotage DS9, never had to hide anything from Berman to get it to air, that Berman never lost interest in DS9 to the point they were finally able to do all the things they wanted, and that once a decision was made by the show Berman was one of the best people they ever had in their corner when dealing with the studio. I mean, that couldn’t all be lies right I mean, the world isn't black and white. Berman clearly did a lot of good for Trek, even the people negative about him don't deny that. He was also a lovely wierdo and caused problems too. People are complicated.
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Aug 31, 2021 05:10
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GORDON posted:Yeah, I felt like she exploited a buffer overflow. Discovery jumps 1,000 years into the future with no way home at the end of season 2, and spends season 3-onward in the 32nd century. The events of Calypso happen 1,000 years after even that, so it occurs at some point in the 42nd century and the writers have said that Calypso is always in the back of their mind and the show will be heading there eventually. E: Whenever I go to a sports game (lol COVID) I always quietly mouth "DEATH TO THE OPPOSITION!" whenever the national anthems wrap up. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 05:15
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There’s a bit of a continuity hole because in the Short Trek the original Discovery is shown, not the retrofitted Discovery-A with the glowing lines and detached nacelles. Not the worst of these things ever seen in Star Trek but it’s still there.
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Aug 31, 2021 05:20
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blastron posted:There’s a bit of a continuity hole because in the Short Trek the original Discovery is shown, not the retrofitted Discovery-A with the glowing lines and detached nacelles. Not the worst of these things ever seen in Star Trek but it’s still there. Calypso was done like, what, nearly two years before the Discovery-A was even a thing? So that's probably the easiest pass of all of the show's gripes and flaws, the VFX team not being clairvoyant, or at the most generous not wanting to spoil the reveal of the refit on a webisode.
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Aug 31, 2021 05:23
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Calypso is still easily the best thing Disco has done so far, I think. Linking up with that would be a fitting way to end the series if they really want to play the long game with it.
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Aug 31, 2021 05:37
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Alchenar posted:The 4X genre is basically a sin wave that peaks at MoO2, Civ4, and Endless Legend and everyone remembers the games inbetween as being really fun because I Like 4X Games but really they're not good. My biggest complaint with Bridge Commander was that it felt like the devs kinda threw up their hands and said "gently caress it, we'll just do a few ships and let the fans mod in the rest". Stock Bridge Commander felt really sterile compared to Klingon Academy. That said, it's a miracle we even got Klingon Academy. That game had a tortured development. skasion posted:Early TNG kind of still has TOS’s sense that space is really big and empty and it takes a while to get anywhere, and sometimes places just drop off the map until another starship stumbles on them. Ehhh, but Datalore still says it was a Starfleet starship that found him; why the hell didn't they do any further investigation when they were there in the first place? It's just sloppy writing, and/or incoherent rewriting from Roddenberry/Maizlish.
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Aug 31, 2021 05:51
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The Discovery/Discovery-A thing with Calypso will probably just end up like how when the series proper covered the events the short about Saru's origins showed, they tweaked things a bit for continuity
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Aug 31, 2021 06:37
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Course Oblivion was an awesome episode of Voyager. It almost felt like what if Voyager was a sealab episode.
Spacebump fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 07:51
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Ehhh, but Datalore still says it was a Starfleet starship that found him; why the hell didn't they do any further investigation when they were there in the first place? It's just sloppy writing, and/or incoherent rewriting from Roddenberry/Maizlish. The entire planet had been wrecked on a never before seen scale so maybe the GORDON posted:I watched all of ST: Discovery for the first time, over the last couple weeks. I liked it a lot more than I thought I would, after the first 10 episodes. Harry Mudd being hella villainous. V-Men fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 08:29
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Epicurius posted:Berman and Braga tend to get lumped together as the "people who ruined Star Trek", but from all the stories I've heard, Braga was at worst a mediocre writing who could sometimes do good stuff, and that Berman was a lot more destructive to the franchise than Braga ever was. He could sometimes do good stuff, but he had a great track record going into Voyager because of how often he collaborated with Moore, and the two of them cancelled out the worst faults in each other's writing and more often than not produced magic.
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Aug 31, 2021 09:33
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My all time favourite Trek line is in Civil Defense. Garak loses patience and calls out Dukat's creeping on Kira and Dukat goes "GARAK!" in this tone of utter indignation.
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Aug 31, 2021 11:21
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Kibayasu posted:For what’s it’s worth when one capital P Producer talks about another Producer from what I know Behr maintains that Berman never did anything to sabotage DS9, never had to hide anything from Berman to get it to air, that Berman never lost interest in DS9 to the point they were finally able to do all the things they wanted, and that once a decision was made by the show Berman was one of the best people they ever had in their corner when dealing with the studio. I mean, that couldn’t all be lies right This is mildly reductive. Berman was vehemently opposed to the idea of a long-term war arc, for example, and Behr smoothed him over by assuring him that it would be done within a few episodes. (  )More infamously, Berman is directly responsible for Terry Farrell leaving DS9. Beyond constantly telling her that her bust was too small and making other disparaging comments, Berman played hardball when it came time to negotiate her season 7 contract. Farrell was incredibly bored on the show, because she had no character beyond "Worf's love interest," and was looking for other work. So she asked for a 13-episode contract, reasoning--correctly, I should note--that the show had so many fleshed-out secondary characters that no one was going to notice if Jadzia were missing here and there. Berman held fast and said, essentially, "You're doing all 26 or you're doing none of them." Feeling like she was between a rock and a hard place, and interested by the prospect of starring on Becker, she let her contract lapse. Berman, for his part, never once told Behr that Farrell had asked for a part-time deal for season 7. Behr says that Berman called him up one day and just said, "Farrell quit, you have to kill her off by the end of the season." Behr hit the roof when he found out about the part-time request and says he would have readily acceded to it had he been made aware. nine-gear crow posted:Michael Piller described it as being trapped inside "Roddenberry's Box" and how that box was a loving nightmare to try and write good stories in. Piller liked working within Roddenberry's Box. It's one reason his writing was so stale by the time he did Insurrection. quote:So it was little wonder that once DS9 wrapped, Moore floated over to Voyager to try and help right the Status Quo Show and bounced after barely a year because it was impossible to write for the way he'd become accustomed to. Moore left Voyager before even a month had gone by; the only episode he solely wrote was Survival Instinct. According to him, Braga had promised that they would be equal partners in running the show and the writers' room, and when he showed up for work, Braga just ordered him around the writers' room, actively disdaining his ideas and basically just treating him like a rookie who'd just walked in off the street. Moore was disgusted and quit, quickly, and it poisoned the relationship between the two for quite some time. They didn't actually sit down and speak to one another and clear the air until they got together to record the audio commentary for the Generations two-disc set.
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Aug 31, 2021 11:25
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Say what you like about Kurtzman but the thing that distinguishes him from those guys is that he's clearly very good at working with other people.
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Aug 31, 2021 11:52
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Alchenar posted:Say what you like about Kurtzman but the thing that distinguishes him from those guys is that he's clearly very good at working with other people. And even he and Bob Orci decided to stop working together. (Although Orci is a 9/11 truther lunatic, so...)
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Aug 31, 2021 12:00
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Hollismason posted:What are some favorite Star Trek quotes?
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Aug 31, 2021 12:38
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Alchenar posted:Say what you like about Kurtzman but the thing that distinguishes him from those guys is that he's clearly very good at working with other people. To a degree, but he didn't manage to get Discovery's writer's room under control for about four or five producers. There's being good at working with other people, being good at managing people, and being good at managing people who are managing people, he flopped on the last. That kind of thing was Braga's biggest failing as a producer, really. Regardless of how formulaic Piller could be or Behr's issues and wierdnesses, they both managed to keep the writer's room together working as a friendly collaborative unit and shielded from the worst of the external dramas. Braga just didn't have that skillset and wasn't able to do that on Voyager and the whole thing went to poo poo as nobody liked going to work. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Aug 31, 2021 |
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Aug 31, 2021 12:59
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MikeJF posted:To a degree, but he didn't manage to get Discovery's writer's room under control for about four or five producers. And his hand-picked producers for the second season were such tyrannical martinets that he had to fire them and take over himself for the remainder of the season.
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Aug 31, 2021 13:00
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Timby posted:This is mildly reductive. Berman was vehemently opposed to the idea of a long-term war arc, for example, and Behr smoothed him over by assuring him that it would be done within a few episodes. ( That anecdote has circled around a lot, but I kinda suspect that what was actually under discussion there was the Call to Arms - Sacrifice of Angels six episode arc. Which, yeah, was much more than a two parter, but it's not like Berman checked out for three seasons without realising there was a war.
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Aug 31, 2021 13:09
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MikeJF posted:That anecdote has circled around a lot, but I kinda suspect that what was actually under discussion there was the Call to Arms - Sacrifice of Angels six episode arc. Which, yeah, was much more than a two parter, but it's not like Berman checked out for three seasons without realising there was a war. The way Behr words it in Fifty-Year Mission is definitely a little odd, yes.
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Aug 31, 2021 13:17
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There's a bit in The 50 Year Mission where Berman tells newly-promoted showrunner Braga (paraphrased) "I can't control Ira Behr, so you can bet your rear end I'm keeping you on a short leash."
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Aug 31, 2021 13:29
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Hollismason posted:What are some favorite Star Trek quotes? Here is mine: My dear Hollismason, they're all my favorite.
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Aug 31, 2021 13:33
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MikeJF posted:To a degree, but he didn't manage to get Discovery's writer's room under control for about four or five producers. There's being good at working with other people, being good at managing people, and being good at managing people who are managing people, he flopped on the last. So I think all of currently produced star trek is seriously creatively compromised in one way or another and there's clearly lots of mess behind the scenes, but they're also all clearly finding audiences and making money and that doesn't happen by accident and Kurtzman is at the centre of it all.
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Aug 31, 2021 13:56
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Timby posted:And his hand-picked producers for the second season were such tyrannical martinets that he had to fire them and take over himself for the remainder of the season. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SHhySoXDcA&t=1104s
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Aug 31, 2021 14:53
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